what the dilly with this?

Where do you see that? Its still 1.2 on the website.

apparently it was being shown at Messe...
Nedim, maybe you know of this 2.0?

As mentioned in another thread, it was demoed at the Music messe at Frankfurt.

Unfortunately I don't speak Italian so I am not able to translate, but in this video, some of the features of OS 2.0 are being shown: http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=55310118

The screen has been divided in a much smarter layout. I guess everything is possible with open architecture software.

[This message has been edited by Morten Jonassen (edited 04-13-2009).]

Nedim,

did you know about this 2.0 ?

i don't know italian but from my portuguese knowledge i hear him talk about brand new styles in 2.0 OS

AJ, can you comment more on this?

i assume YOU know about 2.0?
or is this still in Italy and only making it's way to USA at the end of the year ?? ;-)

[This message has been edited by leezone (edited 04-13-2009).]

Andrea posted something about it here
http://www.createsongstyles.com/forum/index.php?topic=8409.0

------------------
createsongstyles.com

I dont know anything about it yet, i am waiting for AJ to call me back today.

i would love to hear the new styles...

and also i'm abit confused about these new sounds in 2.0?

are they new in a sense of tweaked? adding effects or layering, or totally new?

not sure how they would be totally new, as wouldn't this involve re-sampling and loading into AUDYA hardware??

AJ,

your feedback on 2.0 would be GREATLY appreciated...

and the secrecy continues...

OS 2.0 is not available yet, it will be soon, besides styles and whatever else brings new
features, the long awaited PATTERN EDITOR or Style Creater in our language is coming with 2.0.

will 2.0 allow us to use Drum1 with Audio Loops (wav)

as it is now we can only use midi drums for Drum1

AJ please elaborate on this...

As far as that goes that will stay like that forever, kinda Ketron standard on any arranger
till now, Drum1 MIDI and Drum2 Loops.

Nedim. I don't think you're right on that one. I heard and some are expecting that the ketron PC software to make it possible for audio on drum1. But I too could be wrong

Nedim,

it seems that with the AUDYA, Drum1 can be used with Audio Loops but we need Ketron's software.

AJ, please do confirm and elaborate on this as i don't want to start speculating....

With AUDYA for now you need software (non existent yet) to do everything:
Styles, Loops, Sampling...

2.0 focuses on ...
* Better display layout. You can now control (from the screen) almost instantly features, like song playing, loading registrations ... etc while maintaining control/view of the current status of the machine.
* Styles have been revised further - smoother transition between Arranger and Fill especially with links now included with audio parts of style.
* Better balance and mixing of voices.
* Audio Drums assignable to Drum 1 - In style VIEW, press F1 (DRUM1) and you can toggle between AUDIO and MIDI Drums. Styles with Audio drums now have midi equivalent for those who want to record the midi parts onto software.
* Some fine tune-ups making the OS more stable when playing audio, midifiles, styles ... etc together. CPU now handles all parts playing at the same time (no reason for this in a live situation but we got it covered anyway).

Nedim, Nedim

you have to keep up with the AUDYA,
as you see Drum1 will be able to have AUDIO Drums...

once again i was right ;-)

imagine how LIVE the AUDYA will now sound with OS 2.0 with not 1 Audio Drum Track, BUT 2 Audio Drum tracks...

it just keeps getting better and better...

AJ, i assume some style tweaking in 2.0 now takes advantage of this "extra" Audio Drum track?

also, any new styles in 2.0? any new sounds?

[This message has been edited by leezone (edited 04-14-2009).]

And the PRICE & RELEASE Date in US Stores is?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

ok,

it seems that Drums1 was ALWAYS able to use Audio even with the old/current 1.0 OS, from the start...

thanks for clearing that up FCMUSICA

what is lacking is the ability to use your OWN Audio loops in Drums track.
Now you are required to use the Internal Ketron Audio Drums,
so if i wanna use my own African Percussion, i can't, not yet at least.

BUT hopefully the much anticipated software, which i believe Ketron is to release, will soon take care of that limitation.

AJ,

any new styles with 2.0?

I dont know what happened or missunderstanding or i didnt realize what i wrote but as i remember
since the first Audya here you could you use Audio Loops anywhere on the Drum Tracks.
As using your own Audio Loops you cant for now cuz you need a Sampler for that which is not
there yet, there is no soft yet that will create INS files.

And the PRICE & RELEASE Date in US Stores is?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I've been secretly stock piling Audyas, I'm going to corner the market

------------------
www.AudioworksCT.com
203.876.1133

We wont know till next week, i dont know exactly when is Ted coming back, havent
contacted him since last week, its Passover, i think the order is here but noone to recieve it.

[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 04-15-2009).]

I think for Ketron for so many reasons its too little too late & many have gone to Yamaha & Korg instead of waiting and are NOT looking back again.....

and some may be waiting for that upcoming kick @ss Roland G/Phantom Arranger...

And I think you will find many more players, looking beyond what Yamaha and Korg has to offer...Many players want the realistic, live sound...that they simply are not getting from Yamaha, and to a lesser extent..Korg...The same type of players want the quality build as well as quality sounds that Ketron has to offer...

When the new Ketron hits the streets, they will have buyers....buyers that can afford to purchase.....and not the folks that are not candidates, financially...so they rather knock the marketing policy...

and some might keep what they already have & maybe take the time to read the manual and learn what their arranger can actually do inside ....then practice more to become a much better player....but Nah that makes too much sense

Seems about as likely as landing Michael Jackson a job as a mall Santa.

Ketron have clearly made a mess of the launch, even worse than Roland did with their G70, and that cost the latter a bunch of sales.

Why would a pro want a Ketron arranger that won't play professional quality chords without sounding like the hybrid (audio + midi) it is?

The guitar audio tracks that add midi bits for complex chords sound simply awful....they are supposed to integrate seamlessly, but they are about as subtle as a smiley face lapel pin on an undertaker’s suit.

Good luck, Ketron...you're going to need it.

Ian

I think your 100% on the mark. Ketron has a various products Audya being their higher end product. No one is forced to buy the audya. Many people maybe upset because the audya is out of their financial reach, so its easier to bash the product, then just move on to something else. I see a lot of repeat diehard ketron customers who owned the Sd1 and the Sd5.

i think what KILLS the AUDYA is the lack of memory, or miniscule memory

i mean beef this thing up already,
and come up with more Super-Voices,
give us the ability to load 100 super cool voices simultaneously...

AHHHH!!!!!! You want a MediaStation..

no i want the AUDYA with 1gig RAM, and 1TB HD

for $3,999 US

at twice that they couldnt come close to Yamaha Tyros3 sound.

I have the pleasure to play and work on a
Tyros 3
Korg PA2xpro
Mediastation
G70
SD1+
SD5

They all have pros and cons. to dismiss a keyboard on 5 minutes of playing or a demo seems to me a little rushed.

I agree about timing and some hardware options that should have been upgraded but overall, an arranger should sound like a band and have useable styles and sounds for many genres of music, if you need to add styles or voices it should be by choice and not necessity.

I have always favored the styles and combined overall sounds of Ketrons when in an arrangerment or midi file, hated their interface and Operating system.

So hopefully when I get to truely play the Audya I will be happy.

I talked to Ted from CMC yesterday and he said they were not in as of yet, and he expected them hopefully next week.

------------------
www.AudioworksCT.com
203.876.1133

.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-16-2009).]

I absolutely love my G-70 but when it comes to getting that live sound, my old Ketron XD3 module has it beat by a mile. I play both every weekend as both are backups of each other. And the crowd favors the ketron as far as quantity of people on dance floor. So which is better ? Whichever one gets me that next gig.....whichever is closest to sounding like the real deal... Like a band. Not to knock the tyros or Roland but drums on Audya don't get much better. And for a gigging musician.. wedding gig..etc.. I prefer ketron. For other musicians maybe korg is better. Whatever does the job best for your application. That's all

i'm still VERY curious to see what Roland comes out with next ;-)

Roland New ? Nothing in the top line.

Impuls

Impuls,

apparently you didn't read this thread,
read just the first post on it....

new G-70 successor....
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/019395.html



[This message has been edited by leezone (edited 04-16-2009).]

AJ,

any brand new styles with 2.0?
if so, can you list them?

how many existing styles tweaked with 2.0?
which?
and for what reason?

maybe AJ is too busy creating the styles and he can't answer right now :-)

leezone

You are right - I am busy creating some of the new Dance, Latin, Caribbean and African Styles. These should give AUDYA a notch in the other parts of the world (or to those who play that style of music) - e.g. our friends in Portugal!

Once a fixed list becomes available, we'll post it on our website together with OS 2.0.

Thanks,

AJ

Thanks, AJ....

There one style that is very hard to find and difficult to create also. (Morna) style/genre from Cape verde, africa. Is that a style that will be created from Ketron?

If you need examples I can send it to you.

thanks again.


[This message has been edited by mc (edited 04-20-2009).]

AJ,

please post demos of those new styles you created...

apparently FCMUSICA is busy creating styles of their own for Portuguese, African music

i believe they have created over 100 new styles which they will soon put up for sale

AJ,

May I ask in what country the Dance Styles were created for the SD5. I'm wondering if it's Italy as they really have a good handle on "basic" dance styles.

I'm also wondering if it's possible for you to listen to arranger keyboards from 10-20 years ago and duplicate what you hear on them. They were "basic" patterns but adorned enough not to sound "dry." I'm talking about patterns like Fox Trot, Big Band, all Latin styles. waltzes, French waltz's, Marches, Paso Dobles, 6/8 time Styles, etc.

If I'm correct there are many arranger players like myself who just want your basic styles dressed up enough to sound musical.

One thing that I have clearly noticed is every time new styles come out in a new keyboard, the creator tries to make them different and ends up making them too "complex" just to be different.

Sometimes "newer" in not always better!

Lucky

for now,
i'd love to hear what AJ has come up with

For now, I'd love to hear what the European USERS are saying, rather than what the salesmen are...

Precious few OWNERS talking about them here, even though they have been sold for a while over there... What do they know that we don't?

Its a secret...Roswell 1947...thats where the Audya technology comes from...
i meant Roswell not the year 1947, more like 1997...

[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 04-22-2009).]

What's the matter, Nedim? Has the bloom come off the rose for Ketron now? After all your rosy promises to us, you now accuse them of ten-year old technology...?

Hey, my ex wife was great when i married her...
then started showing colors...she has been EX
for the last 8 years...

And another thing, i am always honest and i pick no sides thats why i always sound
arogant and rebelious, i dont care if i work for Korg or Ketron, if they have flaws i will
tell it like it is, i dont care. As far as the Audya goes i still stay on what i said, did it
happen yet? NO! Will it happen? YES! When? I dont know! Does the Audya sound
great in General? YES! Does it sound great for me? NO!!! IT SUCKS!!! Why? Cuz
i cant do anything with it what i want, all i can use is whats inside...see???
I am not affraid to tell it...is the technology as it is now up to date? HELL NO!!!
A stupid KORG PA500 which is 1300$ does at least 10 times more then Audya...
but for now...tomorow? We have hopes and promises. But its still a good machine.
The sad thing is, a machine 2-3 years old (SD5) has nothing newer then what
a 20 years old machine had (KORG M1) or (KORG I3) and actually did more.
To say something to the people that deal with it, create it, invest in it, design it, they
will say...ah its a good machine, it will make it...HOW??? I personally dont accept a
5000$ either, i will, when they give me EVERYTHING Korg PA2X offers plus another
80% of different features, extra...does it have that? Not even 50% of PA2X...I am not
in love with Ketron nor my father is the owner but i still own 11 Korg machines and
forever i will...why??? They made me do so, same as the guy today made me buy
Parfumes from him...after the Pizza with LeeZone in Manhattan...in the rain...

[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 04-22-2009).]

In which case, perhaps next time, Nedim, you might reserve your adulation for a new, untried arranger until AFTER you get it and give it a serious workout...

Oh, and you MIGHT consider cutting a little more slack to those of us capable of spotting the 'gotchas' BEFORE it comes out from simply reading about the specs...

In the light of how you feel now, do you consider some of your rabid and borderline insulting comments from a recent months perhaps just a BIT premature? Imagine, if you will, some jumped up fanboy starts insulting YOU, now, for expressing the same reservations about the Audya now, that we had weeks (months) ago? I mean, SURELY the Audya HAS to be the greatest, yada yada yada? ALL it's flaws will doubtless be fixed (despite the same flaws remaining unfixed on SD-1 etc.), how DARE you imply it is no good, blabber blabber blabber...

This is a great forum, and all that, but coming in guns blazing can only end in you shooting your own foot off if you aren't cautious. Personally, I tend to view ALL manufacturer generated hype as dubious at best, and so far, have rarely been proved wrong! Jumping in and 'defending' a manufacturer for their hype and marketing exaggeration rarely turns out to be a good move.

Perhaps now you can move over to the "realists'" side of the aisle, rather than the "optimists'"... you'll find plenty of company

Now I'm even more curious about what Frank will have to say when he gets them all side by side in front of him.

Lucky

Hi Lucky,
excuse me for butting in, but I think AJ may be reffering to modern dance styles ie Techno , rap etc

On my SD1+ "Dance" is modern dance the Audya may differ? ,

Sounds to me like Technics type styles may have suited for the type of music you play. I had at least 20 foxtrots for my Technics keyboards, plus heaps of the other type styles you mentioned. Technote created dozens of style disks.

Technote, company that created Technic styles, actually ended up doing the same styles for Roland. Don't know how good they sound on Roland Keyboards, as I don't own one. I nearly did a Roland though, just to get the styles back & save me having to convert the ones I wanted.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lucky2Bhere:
[b] AJ,

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 04-23-2009).]

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 04-23-2009).]

since the AUDYA's sampler/hardware is a bit crippled due to the lackluster RAM, ROM, HD

what Ketron NEEDS to do to stay ahead of the game is simple, 2 things...

give us that style software for PC & on AUDYA to create and manipulate styles.

come up with lots MORE styles, especially a bit more modern ones

I think since 1997 till today is 12 years, not 10.

ouch... 12 years,

maybe it's like wine, it gets better with age... ;-)

My grandma didnt get better with age...

Hi Rikki,

Yes…I did read AJ’s post again….he IS talking about modern dance styles.

This short dialogue we’ve had is starting to make me realize it’s also the dance styles that are problematic for me. I need really “dry” styles that I can build on during performance. I have a Roland E-300 which was very advanced for it’s day. It has very basic styles (but convincing) that I can start out with and then add 4 sets of “layers” of drum variations to the SAME basic beat. It works well for me.

The thing I have noticed over the years is that with each generation of keyboard styles, they HAVE to make a new pattern (you can’t sell a new keyboard with an old patch (dance style). And over the generations they lost sight of the basic dance style pattern. I found this noticeably so with the Fox Trot and “Tango’s.” I like tango’s and many other basic dances, particularly Latin. Ketron is still somewhat traditional, but I found the Korg to be bordering on overkill with their drum patterns.

I have hundreds of great dance styles for my Roland. Many I bought and many were downloaded from the Net. Also I have styles that fit one situation only…example: Beach Boys/Fun, Fun, Fun, Beatles/Michelle/ Yesterday, Jerry Lee Lewis/ Whole Lot of Shakin & Great Balls of Fire, etc. I would really miss all of these. When I get time I’m going to have to look into whether or not I can convert these styles fairly easy to a new keyboard format.

No one responded to my post about "who (or what country) makes up the drum patterns for the various keyboards." Or HOW they get made up. Do you have any ideas on this?

I wish I had the time to do proper keyboard shopping, but in the meantime no one has complained yet about my E-300!

Lucky

[This message has been edited by Lucky2Bhere (edited 04-23-2009).]

AJ. Any idea when 2.0. Will drop? Mr. Sound in Brooklyn NY has the Audya in stock. But I wanted to try Audya with 2.0. Installed.

Lee, i dont think Joel has one.

OS 2.0 should be up on our website soon.

As to prgrammers, I can't speak for others, but KETRON gets programmers from the stdyle's background e.g Reggaes and Salsa(Jamaican and someone from Puerto Rico), Country (someone from Nashville 2 guys actually), Hip hop (2 from Baltimore) ... I do the socas and some African/Caribbean styles etc. We believe the only way to get the styles close to authentic is ... get programmers from those areas of the world.

Thanks,

AJ

MC,

Please send me an example of that style from Africa (axa130@hotmail.com - subject 'SUGGESTED AUDYA STYLES') you were refering to above.

Currently lined up (included in OS2.0) will be the following new styles ...
* New ZOUK (French West Indies)
* Makossa (Cameroon - West Africa)
* Ndombolo (Ivory Coast - West Africa)
** Many others ... which you will be able to load into the USER memory location.

Because AUDYA reads USER styles directly from the HD, the number of styles (e.g with a 80GB HD) appoaches 9,999 (with audio parts associated with each style).

Thanks

AJ

PS: Yes, AUDYAS are in the US and the first orders have been shipped. MR SOUND in NY should have one on the floor. Other dealers should start getting them tomorrow/Sat as they've all been shipped out!!

Dance Styles - Created in Italy.

[This message has been edited by Ketron_AJ (edited 04-30-2009).]

Perhaps I could suggest that if the Audya wants to be successful in the US, perhaps as well as developing Zouk or Ndombolo, they might try a few US styles as well

Something from this century might be good...

The styles always sounded great before, why ruin a good thing.

Why would ADDING to a style collection ruin anything...?

Thing is, other than legacy US styles, few arrangers have anything that could remotely be called 'contemporary' US material. Alternative, hiphop, emo, modern R&B, zydeco, all of these styles are as poorly represented as the styles from Mozambique, or Sierra Leone or any of the countries Ketron are franticly trying to cover. However, I'd be willing to bet that there are WAY more people in the US capable of affording an Audya, if only it addressed THEIR needs. But I'm not talking oldies and bigband... I'm talking the same kind of stuff you can find in a MotifXS, or M3, or FantomG.

You know... keyboards that actually DO sell in large numbers

I'd be willing to bet that the zouk styles will sound very contemporary (by zouk standards). Why not try doing that to US styles as well. You will be amazed at how many more you sell, if you style them for the majority of people that buy keyboards, not the minority (which is what arranger users right now are)...

Without even TRYING to break into the sounds and styles in modern WS's, you basically condemn any modern arranger to a dwindling niche market, and basic irrelevance and obscurity.

I agree with Diki on this one...
Soon he is gonna invite me for a Drink...
which i might be down in FL soon.

Yep diki. You are defianately on the money here. If the styles dont progress to more contemporary sounds and styles the arranger market will continue to dwindle but the pricing is also an issue. Young people just starting out in life , maybe with a new young family, huge mortgage cannot justify dropping $5000+ for a keyboard when they can pay half as much for a motif or fantom. I have no idea what is going on with Ketron. Korg has just dropped the Oasys line after charging customers initially $8000 for it. I can tell you it has left a nasty taste in a lot of peoples mouths. With this recession biting deep over the next few years its fool hardy (in my view) entering the arranger market with a TOTL arranger costing the same as a family car.

Oasys dropped half price, here in NYC new goes for around 4500-5000$...76 Keys.

Arranger manufacturers are faced with the chicken and the egg scenario.
Which one comes first?

Do you make contemporary styles for a TOTL arranger first then hope the market buys it?
Or, do you make sure you have the market then make the contemporary styles for that market.

If manufacturers are showing that arranger sales are low, that younger persons don’t buy arrangers, then what would be the incentive for a manufacture to make an arranger with contemporary styles?

Where as the persons who buy arrangers are the ones who use and play traditional music. A manufacturer would want to “take care” of the market that has supported their product. Manufacturers are very reluctant to expand their market (Just look at Yamaha and the 76 key arranger market).

You know style making cost.

It will come down to which one a manufacturer believes comes first; the chicken or the egg.

To mention another thing in here, which is a big reason of why:
Us, people that actually devellop styles for companies, we charge a lot of money. Its not
easy to create one style, its expensive, try calculating 30 style by 450-500$ each.

Or........dismissing a KB without ever playing or seeing one

That's not quite a half price drop Nedim. Originally the Oasys 76 went for 8 Grand even. Half price would be 4 Grand even. It might be worth snatching one up though, at that price. But you have to consider there will be NO more support for the Oasys since it has been discontinued for almost a year now.

Here is the reason the Oasys went the way of the Dinosaurs. It was TOO EXPENSIVE, AND the open architecture aspect of it was incomplete and/or archaic in my opinion. Plus the HUGE consideration, that the Oasys didn't sell near well enough for Korg to continue to put R&D into it and thus they discontinued the Oasys line altogether. Believe me, if Korg would have sold "enough" of the Oasys's, even at that ridiculously high price tag of $8,500/88/$8,000/76, Korg would STILL be making the Oasys as we speak. In fact, an Oasys "II" would most likely have already been released by now. But people have MANY, MANY, MANY, "OTHER" keyboard options available to them, without necessarily having to empty their bank accounts or max their credit cards for the privilege of owning one. And the *bang for buck* for the Audya is a similar scenario in my opinion.

Why pay $5,000 *plus* for a 'crippled' Audya when you can turn around and buy a fully functional Korg Pa2XPRO and have an extra (plus or minus) $2,000 left over, to stick back in your pocket for a rainy day??

PLEASE!!, no flames guys and gals. These are only 'my' observations and opinion. I realize Ketron is busy with OS 2.0 which "should" shore up the Audya with much needed enhancements and other improvements as well too hopefully. If OS 2.0 turns out to be the bees knees of Audya Operating System updates, then it very well could definitely, and significantly, increase the WOW factor of the Audya - to where it might actually then be worth the "arm and leg" Ketron is charging for it.

Needless to say, we will have to wait a while for OS 2.0 to roll out the door (hopefully not 3 more years though right? ) - and see if that will indeed be the case or not. In other words, will the Audya actually (and finally) be worth its salt or not?

Again, my opinion(s).. so please bear with me and try to respect my own personal observations and/or opinion(s) about the sky high priced Audya, okay? >> Even though I realize some of you may be chomping at the bit to unleash your flaming arrows full of fire and brimstone and directed directly at you know who.

All the best,
Mike

First of all, styles like hip-hop, rap are forever changing and whatever any keyboard develops it will probably be outdated by the time the keyboard is released. Second I can't explain it but I don't see younger generation ever using arrangers for rap, hiphop, etc, regardless is the styles are good or not. Most of the younger generation here in the states only use arrangers if they come from ethnic backgrounds and they play ethnic music like Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, Polish, etc. I haven't found any keyboard company that will put out any decent rap, etc styles so why should it be Ketron. There specialty has alway been styles from all ethnic groups back to the MS50 days and been going strong since.

"all of these styles are as poorly represented as the styles from Mozambique, or Sierra Leone or any of the countries Ketron are franticly trying to cover"

That's totally un-true, almost all the ethnic styles that ketron develops are on the mark. Their Latin is the best hands down of any keyboard. They released some African styles that can with XD9 as a user style that was great and no other keyboard company even thought of providing anything from the region of the world.




[This message has been edited by mc (edited 05-02-2009).]

In my 12 years in USA and knowing thousands of musicians i havent found yet a SINGLE
YOUNG AMERICAN using an arranger for music, this is a fact. And still the biggest market
is us foreigners. No matter from where. Thats why they care about those foreign styles.
Noone will play Rap or Trance on an arranger. And when i say young i mean young, on
the forum probably i am one of the youngest and i am still 33, i mean really young, someone
my age wont really play RAP on an arranger.

[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 05-02-2009).]

The chicken and the egg? Hardly...

Arranger manufacturers already have their current demographic well and truly covered. What remains to be seen is whether one of them has the foresight to try to EXPAND the demographic. Because the elderly OMB is hardly a growing concern. As traditional organ sales has shown us, when you pin your sales model on a dwindling, aging market segment, all you can do is diminish. And eventually all but disappear.

Ketron, because of the audio drum loop feature, have an opportunity to produce styles that transcend the built-in drum kits. And to do them quickly (while the sounds and styles are still contemporary). While they appear to be willing to put the work in to provide CONTEMPORARY ethnic music styles for niche users, I ask again... Why not tap that vast ETHNIC American market ( ) as well?

And don't think for one minute that the Ndomolo and Zouk styles are as dated as most US styles are. I would be very surprised to find that out. All we are asking for is US styles as contemporary as their African, or Portuguese counterparts... Mysteriously, the style makers seem to have no problem keeping up with the ethnic music trends. Why should it be any harder keeping up with US trends..? Ketron seem somehow able to afford the cost of expanding the style library for these niche markets. All I have said is, if making styles that are modern for THOSE markets makes sense, why would making them for the much more affluent US market NOT make equal sense?

That should still show you something and thats that there is no arranger market in the US as
it is somewhere else, those companies are not stupid that work that way, trust me, i worked
for few of them on few projects, i know personally how they approach at this. We can scream
as much as we want WE ARE AMERICANS WE ARE THE GREATEST but for arranger market
we cant even compete to the poorest east european country, whichever it is. Its reality, they
know what they are doing, they go where the money are, there is no money and sales for them
in USA. Now you gonna ask me why i said that about us Americans above, you know exactly
why, thats how your post sounds like, like we are the stronger market for arrangers or biggest
and you still know that we are probably the smallest. They wont create nothing for USA, it is a
waste of investement for them, they wont sell here, its not as big as other places, Portugal itself
can cover the whole US with arrangers, forget the rest of them. Why do you think everything goes
there first and we are always the last thing in the picture about anything? Cuz we aint that great
as we think we are...we are just big on words which they dont really care, they want big sales and
money which is not happening for them in the USA but in other countries.

Sorry, Nedim, Take another read of my post. Slowly.

I never said that the US is the largest arranger market. I said that, with all the wealth over here, it is POTENTIALLY the largest market. But until arranger manufacturers start addressing OUR needs as diligently as they do their current, most successful markets, it is NEVER going to grow...

You can hardly expect Americans to start using a product that doesn't meet their needs, just so that, in the future, the manufacturer MIGHT get around to it. Remember the 'Field of Dreams'...

If you build it, they will come.

They sure as hell aren't going to come until you do...

The failure of the arranger market in the US has nothing whatsoever to do with American players. We have the same number of fingers, toes and ears as players anywhere else in the world. The failure lies SQUARELY at the door of the arranger manufacturers, who appear to be more concerned with pandering to small niche markets that already exist, than trying to address the needs of what could POTENTIALLY be their largest market.

God never worried about the 'chicken and the egg'. He simply made the egg. And the chicken followed.

If arranger manufacturers never even TRY, the chicken will NEVER appear. Sure, it costs money to make the egg. But there's a boatload of people buying keyboards in the US. Don't they want a piece of that action? Basically, the US share of the arranger market will never grow, until the arranger manufacturers make something that they like.

The ball is in THEIR court, not ours.

You are completely right about that but people and bussineses tend to go after
whats already there, not to start to create something anew when there is something
already. Take me as an example, my heritage is Turkish, i grew up in Yugoslavia,
today i make my living out of the Arab and Greek musicians and lately Westerners
in general. When i saw that happening at the begining i left my own community,
my own crowd and market, i saw i was good at this new communities and then i
started working mostly for them, to satisfy them and not my own community for
which i can probably do better things. But i decided to leave them instead of investing
in them and then waiting for something to happen. Once in a while i PopUp with
something new and good for my community but they are nowhere, its dead, same
this with US in the US, maybe they dont wanna take a chance, it still goes back to
the chicken and egg, who Starts first, WE or THEM? In my case was THEM and
i just followed them, till today i dont know if i was the chicken or the egg...

Are there really no young arranger players in the US ? Actually there are thousands but they dont call them arrangers because they dont like the name. And they dont play arrangements , they prefer to call them Arps. Yamaha are already testing the waters by integratng some arranger functions into their workstation instruments hence the styles that have been incorporated into the MimiMo , the MO and the XS .

The market is there but it needs to be approached differently thats all.

The difference, spalding, is the control paradigm...

For instance, on the MotifXS, probably the most 'chord following' of all the WS's, there is no way to trigger loops as fills in the arranger sense. That is, you can, on an arranger, drop into a fill DURING a bar, and everything will stay in sync. On the MoXS, you either have to cue the fill up a bar in advance, or you are out of luck.

What arrangers have is a very natural, musical approach to triggering loops (that's all styles are, really - little MIDI or audio loops that follow the chords), but we have no really contemporary sounds and styles. The WS's, OTOH, have very contemporary styles (that's all loops are, really ) but a completely unintuitive way of triggering them.

First keyboard that combines the two cleans up, in my opinion. It can be an arranger company if they make the effort. Somehow, though, I doubt it. And next to 'home organs' from the sixties and seventies, in the Museum of Obsolete Instruments pretty soon will lie the 'arranger'.

From Nedim's reply, it is obvious that arranger manufacturers are only concerned with their existing markets. While WS manufacturers are concerned with innovating and GROWING their market... And it weill only take ONE WS to adopt the arranger control paradigm (software loop players like Live already allow you to drop into fill loops like arrangers do) and everybody will drop arrangers faster than a hot potato...

Trust me Nedim... your market did NOT come looking for you. YOU went to them, provided the service, and THEN they came. That's how it works. Nobody buys a truck if they want a minivan. You have to build the minivan before they will buy it. And the arranger manufacturers have to build a contemporary arranger, before that segment of the market (young musicians with money$$$ ) will buy one. You can't expect them to buy things better suited to their grandparents, and just HOPE that better styles are developed...

This is the way I see it.

Although slow, manufactures do keep an eye on the market, and if they just looked at this forum they would all write off combining Arp's with Arranger control as a total waste of resources. (Fortunately they take a much wider view)

Why

Well what you are on about, can already be done on open keyboards like the Mediastation, (Including Audio) but a lot of folks here that say they want the Arp's and Arranger facilities combined, are the first to run the keyboard that can do it down. (Remember whatever features are available on hardware are also available in software, which can be loaded into open keyboards like the Mediastation to give you exactly you want)

The future you so crave has been here for years, but few of you are prepared to leave your current comfort arranger zone and embrace it, and because of this the big boys see no market that they can make money in.

The manufactures (Particularly smaller ones) provide all sorts of forward thinking tools, however it’s up to the uses to get off their backsides (Butt) and create the market for them, not the other way round.

Regards

Bill

One thing that needs to be thrown in to the mix is the difference between the way traditional players use arrangers and the way younger players use arps/styles/loops.
Traditional players are more passive in that they just want to play songs that have already been made. Contemporary players are more creative and active players and want to make their own songs and not necessarily play what is already there.

I am sure Yamaha and Korg are testing the “young person arranger market” with some style functions in their Motif xs and M3 offerings.

If they get feedback with players saying that they want more ways of controlling the arpts/loops live, then maybe they would consider putting more “live style features” on their. But with out that, there would be no incentive for them to do that.

Remember the whole purpose of an arranger is to sound like a band. An arranger is there to substitute for a live band.
Is contemporary hip-hop and R and B being performed by live bands?
Not really, most of the contemporary hip-hop and R and B are performed in clubs and other establishments by a DJ. When it comes to contemporary music, could an arranger replace a DJ.

And for those who do not understand the chicken and egg scenario, it is the question of which one comes first. So for example, do you need the egg first so that the egg can hatch in to a chicken? But how can you get an egg without having a chicken (chicken lay eggs). But there can not be chickens unless they came from eggs. And you see how you could just go in circles continuing with the thought process.

Asking arranger manufacturers to make styles for a market that is not there (hip-hop and r and b) is like asking Workstation manufacturers to make more big-band and swing ARPS/Loops where there is no market for that.


The fact is there is no quantifiable proof that contemporary hip-hop and R and B styles are wanted on an arranger.
Workstations are covering that very well.


P.S if one really wanted to play hip-hop and R and B live on the Yamaha motif XS, while it may not be the same operation as a fully functioning arranger with styles, but you could do it with patton and patton chaining and the performance mode.

I dont know but its complicated, i talk to Jerry, Malcolm and Paolo from Korg,
people from Ketron, i had an offer from Roland talked to them too, they, all
of them agree with what we are saying (i know cuz i talk this same thing to them)
but it seems like Abacus says, they have a wider view on this, they see and say
the same as us but on a different level, they are more slower, calmer, why i dont
know, they seem to be just taking it easy, i cant get it why.

Look, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniac didn't have scores of people coming to them and going 'you know, we would really like a small 'home' computer'. Nobody even imagined it could be possible, let alone think of the possible use for such a thing. They simply built it first, at considerable cost and risk to themselves, and the rest is a slice of Apple pie history.

The market did not EXIST until the product was built. The egg came first... This is what keyboard manufacturers need to acknowledge. Unless they build it, there will NEVER be a market for the product.

And, I'm sorry, but the MS does not count. It has the HARDWARE to do what needs to be done, but is still basically without CONTENT. Why is that important? Because, if you tried to sell a MotifXS with NO loops and arps already provided (but only the capability to make your own) they would sell in a tiny fraction of the numbers they do now. Our WS brothers are JUST as hooked on provided content as we are...

Thats the point, none of them wants to pay, Dom offered me, to create 50 styles for him,
you know how much he offered me? An MS for free and you know whats devellopers price
per style? 8 Free MS? or a lil more, for 50 Styles. Can you Imagine, the guy wants me to do
40$ a styles which i have to work 2 days for 40$. I think thats disrespectfull too. I told him,
a Free MS to me is only 6 styles, complete, nothing more, not even a note.
And Diki, whos gonna pay or whos gonna create styles? Its different when i create collection
of styles and sell it on fractions and its different if i create 30 styles for Dom or Ted or whoever
where its a one shot thing, i want my 2 days per style, i am not selling those styles on a daily
basis. But they wont pay and expect market, it doesnt work that way.

No manufacturer is going to spend lots of money on developing a product for which there are other products that adequately serves the intended market. It is just business 101.

If there is an unintended consequence of contemporary players using traditional arrangers then yes they will welcome the market. But if there is no indication that contemporary players would use an arranger then it does not make business sense for arranger manufacturers to go out of their way to make contemporary styles.

This is the same argument some persons on this forum made when it relates to the MS. They say that Dom should not be a risk taker and develop a product first; he should have the market then develop the product (market then product).

However, when it relates to contempoarary styles, some how they think it should be the other way around (product then market).

Very contradictory and inconsistent.

The fact that you guys are still here, on this arranger forum, is proof enough to me that WS's do NOT provide the degree of control and live ease that arrangers do. Or you would already be WS users, plain and simple. I simply feel that there is a small window of opportunity for arranger manufacturers to grab the reins, or a couple more generations of WS's will obsolete them completely.

Whether they have the sense to do this or not, I am in doubt

Personally, I believe the market ALREADY exists, but really only Ketron and Lionstracs do not already have a WS line, doing considerably better than the arranger line. Dom has the hardware, but not enough money to develop the content, Ketron has enough money to develop the content, but the hardware still has a ways to go, and the content they ARE developing is focused on markets they already have.

Really, there's only a few things that WS's need to improve, and then it's game over. First is the 'always in sync' loops that you can switch between on the fly, not cued a bar in advance, and the other thing is bass inversions, and chord inversions, that current WS's don't do. Other than that, with work, a MoXS could be a decent arranger... and beat the pants off any contemporary arranger at modern music.

I feel that WS's are excellent for creating loop music at home and in the studio, but the arranger still beats them pants down for live use. That is, if 'live' means any flexibility whatsoever. Ableton Live is the success it is because it allows complete creative control, even in a live situation (contrary to most computer apps). So far, WS's can't do this. Now is the time for arranger makers to step up to the plate. Now, or never. Unless they make the investment, the market will be GONE, and all you are left with is ethnic musics and legacy style for an aging, dwindling market.

And let us not think for one minute that the ethnic markets won't disappear as well, once WS's (with all their mature audio capabilities and developed modern content) can do an arranger-like control system. They either do it NOW, or it's the 'home organ' story all over again. There's a product that had an enormous market, but failed to follow trends, to stay contemporary, and now they do, what? Maybe 1% of their 70's numbers...

Try M3 with KM3 software and you will see where are arrangers heading to...nowhere...
wait few more years.

Hi Diki

Don’t know where you got the idea that Steve Jobs & Co started the computer as computers had been around in the market for some time, however they were all assembled, programmed and used by uses at home in Bedrooms Dens, Sheds etc.

Steve Jobs & Co saw there was a market out there, and then built a universal computer that anybody could use, and standardised it.

Once again uses had seen the potential of the computer and got off their backsides (Butt) and created a market for it, thus spurring on the big boys. (Aspiring big boys at the time) to do something about it (Make Money)

Regards

Bill

Perhaps I should have said 'personal computer'...

Perhaps I should have mentioned the graphical front end (without which, computers would still be relegated to being office machines for word processing and accountancy work)...

Perhaps they sat around and went 'you know, loads of musicians are telling me they want a device that sequences and records real audio that they could make records on'... No, they built the device first, and then the market found a use for it. Many, many uses that no-one had the slightest idea of until the tool to realize those needs was built.

Until the arranger industry builds the tool, no-one is going to use it...

The arranger market for contemporary styles already exists. But the way arrangers are sold/marketed needs to change.

When Yamaha put up a video of any of the tyros range they get middle aged men or straight out of the conservatoire japaneese women to demonstrate their instruments. When thy demonstrate their workstations they get people underage 30 to demo the products and they dont play any rumba's cha cha cha's etc

I like what ketron in Portugal are doing. They use young people singing contemporary songs to demo their instruments. Ketrons only failing in this respect is that the price way outside that age profile.The same for korg because thats the profile of the people they are targeting.