I suspect this question has been asked before but do any of you ever encounter the song-gestapo from RIAA or any of the PRO organizations such as ASCAP or BMI trying to get your venue to cough up for having you play copyrighted songs? I've heard some real horror stories on this subject and wonder how it impacts you guys?

Thanks for your replies.

Dave Rice

It only happened to me when I was playing 6 nights a week at a 200 seat restaurant that offered dancing. The owners had never heard of licensing fees for music before.

It would have impacted me right out of a job...but I suggested the owners consider negotiating the fee. They did and got a lower rate than originally asked.

I can't remember the actual fee...but think it was around $500 per annum. After breaking it down on a monthly basis the owners felt a little better about it.

I don't know if this had anything to do with it, but a few months before, a CBS crew came in and did a story about the restaurant and showed me playing to seasonal visitors from Maine. It was my 15 seconds of fame on CBS Sunday Morning.

Eddie

It has never happened to me, even when I was playing restaurants and nite clubs on a regular basis. I think DonM had a visit from them and he just played some weird tunes he invented on the spot, just anything that came out of his head, they never bothered him again.

Gary

Actually I paid ASCAP each year. They let me have a minimum fee because I told them I was the only entertainment, and I just played when we had a big crowd and sometimes not at all.
No problems with them.
BMI was another story. They were downright nasty in attitude, and I never paid them a cent, even though they threatened lawsuits.
They never sent a rep as ASCAP did, they just kept phoning and making demands, even though they had no idea what music I had or was doing.
It is a necessary cost of doing business, but you can negotiate. It is the venue's responsibility, not the entertainer's.
DonM

BMI just started harrassing calls to a restaurant I play last week. They were real "gangsters"...threatening legal action and generally being asses.

What a bunch of jerks!


R.


[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 02-20-2009).]

And the rest of the story Russ?.....

Donny, I suggested that these guys not pay, and I quit playing there as of last night. We had a party booked there for a while, so I played that party and cleared out. This little place has no drink liscense and is making it, but not by much. Sadly, I had been at this little place for over three years and had made a lot of friends. Another place...a lot more upscale, has been asking me to work there again for a few years, and I'll start that early evening (5:00-8:00 P.M.) job tonight.

All the reps had to do was be nice, but they weren't. I believe in paying what's owed, but I won't put up with jerks like this under any circumstances.

The new place can afford and is paying all necessary liscensing fees.


R.


[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 02-20-2009).]

Russ were they after the club or you for playing there?



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-20-2009).]

Don is correct. Most of these guys will negotiate. It's always been a mystery to me how these organizations can collect and pay out colleted fees fairly. They're just a fact of life. I can think of 5 upscale, successful clubs here in Lexington where management has had enough and just stopped live music completely in the last two years. Usually, it's not the fee as much as the harrassment and attitude that kills the deal. Reps from one of these groups stayed at a hotel I played years ago. They would have been perfect for the Supranos...big, intimidating, stupid jerks.

R.



[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 02-20-2009).]

Donny, nothing personal going on. They're in town contacting all establishments with music and no liscensing agreement. They show up about once a year.

It's not what they do, it's how they do it that's so offensive.

And, they will resort to legal action.

Russ

I was on the phone with ASCAP in Nashville several times, first to
find out how they - in Nashville, within a week of my starting the
gig, found out that I was playing a little pizzaria/restaurant in a
little town outside of Philadelphia (their method is top secret). I
tried to expalain that I would be playing mostly folk tunes that have
long been in the public domain. They wouldn't hear of it, and they
harrassed the restaurant owners several times a week - If there is
live and/or recorded (e.g. CD's) music - somebody pays a fee. Piped
in radio music is okay since the stations pay the fees as per the
playlists.
Ciao,
Jerry

In talking to the reps from one of these organizations, they come to town and first check the entertainment section of the local paper and any entertainment guides...those little magazines found in the lobby of many establishments. They check out any places listed in these publications. And they check out any web-based entertainment guides. Then, they drive around looking at billboards and entrance signs for entertainment notices.

For years, I played an upscale restaurant (14 years, actually) and told the owners to not use the "week-ender" (a listing of entertainment venues in the local paper) to publicize the music. We had no problem. The year I left, a musician called in his own listing. Within weeks, all liscensing organizations had contacted the place. They now pay a total of $2750 a year for each of the two places they own.

In the case of the little restaurant I just left, the reps of the liscensing company were talking to the owners of a bar in the same shopping center. The bar owners said "there's a piano player at (restaurant name). Are you collecting fees from them"? Guess what? They went right down the street and the rest is history. This is about the 9th time music was discontinued at a place I worked as a result of actions like this.

R.

Believe it or Don't...but I know of an exception to the "radio rule".

We had a little family restaurant in town (70 seats) which used an easy listening FM station for background music. The owners were approached by ASCAP and were told that they were subject to a license fee because they had 5 speakers mounted in the ceiling.

The owners turned off the radio. Problem solved.

Eddie

I had the identical thing happen about 2 years ago at a Coffee House I played at. The gestapo gang pulls into town checks out the local newspaper entertainment ads then swings into action. ( pretty much what Russ mentioned).

In the case of the coffee house I played at, the owner worked out a revised lower payment. I wasn't privy to the details so I don't know what he worked out.

To add insult to injury the local zoning board came down on the guy since this marina area coffee house wasn't zoned for entertainment. Another 6 months went by and the guy was allowed to have music. It did however put a real damper on that end of his business.

Here in Brazil, tax over copyrighted songs are payed by the customer that must show the bill payed before the gig.
One unique law : No tax payed:No music

Chico

And, of course, just like always, a tiny, tiny fraction of that money collected ever gets into the hands of the musicians that actually WROTE the music...

If the Mafia came to your place of business and did the same thing, it would be called exactly what it really is....

EXTORTION....

Diki, Mafia is a good way to describe some of these guys. Funny thing about this recent event is, the day host of the little restaurant involved is a real "wiseguy"...just spent 14 years in prison (someone was trying to get him to "rat" on the mob)for money-laundering. He looks like Pauley on the Supranos...white hair around the ears and all. These guys had even him rattled.

The way they handle matters really is extortion.


R.

Yep... the Mafia only WISHES in their wildest dreams it were the US Government.

They are small potatoes compared to the thugs in Washington

Whn I was doing my thing in Branson SESAC came in a made demands for back Payment from Legends, Seems Neil sold SESAC his library for a hefty upfront fee, SESAC went after us and Mikey Gilly down the street as Mickey was doing America and Sweet Caroline in his show which he dropped. He also removed some seats from his theater because the rate to BMI and ASCAP was dependent on Seat numbers.

The venue is responsible to pay songwriters their due and should. If you look at fee shcdules it really isn't all that much.


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-20-2009).]

I didn't realize SESAC was still viable. In the 70's I worked at a radio station whose owner was always complaining about SESAC. ASCAP and BMI didn't seem to be a problem for him.

At one point he had asked all the DJ's to check the record labels before spinning them. If SESAC appeared anywhere on the label, we were told NOT to play the record.

Eddie

You wander what those thugs TAKE is?
I bet it's 50%...Then the organizations (pun intended) gets their TAKE...10% maybe to the people that should get it!

? does nursing homes count?

Lee S.

This started in clubs I played in Long Island NY 20 years ago!! They came in jotted down the songs I played (did not know they were there) talked to the owner, he paid, put their label on the door (ASCAP)and that was that. Do not remember what it cost.

[This message has been edited by JCkeeys (edited 02-20-2009).]

Yeah Legends didn't either but they got a big fish in Neil Diamond and became "relevant" again and since they had to recoup for THEMSELVES, paying him a fat sum up front, they were very aggressive, Caught a few people by surprise. but after doing some research at the time and checking their rates they were reasonable.

Very successful Writers get very nice checks quarterly from these organizations. In some cases apparently like SESAC and Neil Diamond they are paid up front covering a period of time and then have to collect.

I don;t have a problem with PROs. Without the writers and their success there would be fewer careers. People want to hear songs like Margarita and Sweet Caroline over and over and over again,

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-20-2009).]

Diki ... I don't understand... what do BMI and ASCAP have to do with the government?

And while all of this seems like a pain in the a$$, and the methods used by some of these people are questionable at best, the ORIGINAL intent was to protect the composers from others making money off the use of the composers' material ...
t.

Question: Is one of the criteria "public performances?"

Restaurants, bars, etc. all open to the public, but what about private clubs or other gigs that aren't open?

If I put on a 80th birthday party for my dad and hire Russ to come up and play for us, does ascap/bmi/etc. have grounds?

------------------
Bill in Dayton

Anytime one benefits from the performance of others original works, someone is obligated to compensate the writers of that work.

The best way to ensure those fees are collected are through PRO's. It's no different then mechanical royalties that need to be paid to sell CDs of other's works.

Thanks for your input folks. My complaint is the way these organizations appear to only track the songs of the really big artists. Most of us are so far beneath the radar, even though we belong to one PRO or another, we never see a dime of the money they collect.

My complaint is with how poorly regulated these private corporations are. I agree that the artists deserve compensation. But the way that the performance rights societies go about collection, and the pittance that actually gets distributed, compared to collection and administration costs, is what gets up my nose.

And, it seems, many others here.

Sweetheart deals with major radio and TV corporations are done in back rooms, but small mom an pop operations are bullied and extorted for monies that no artist would consider fair. Let's face it, most artists at the top got their start in little places. And I guarantee, were most of them made aware of some of the strong arm tactics used in their names, they would be appalled.

Well.., without mentioning names and locations I'll shed some back alley justice on this topic.

Story simply goes..., "Rep Goon Squad" goes in.., not met with any problems from business owner and employeed family members. Goon Squad goes all "Saprano's" on them. Result..., Goon Squad got OWNED! Those clowns got their arses put in check End of story. (now I'm not advocating people start beating on these reps.., but they don't always go into a business puff up their chests without incident) These reps do get out of hand.., and at times get a good old fashioned ass whoopin!

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 02-21-2009).]

I certainly have no problem with a FAIR method of compensating writer/performers.

It the implementation I find so objectionable.

And, No one can tell you how the funds are distributed. A few years ago, the National Electronics Show was almost shut down because one of these organizations insisted the night before the show opened that anyone showing a product that required a DVD, tape, or recording of any kind pay a fee.

I threw a couple of these guys out of a club years ago. Did the same to a couple of musicians union reps, but that's a whole different story.


Russ