Well, I just figured out the reason the US, unlike Europe, Asia and the Mid-East is not the leader in arrangers sales. :-)

WE don't have enough corner PUBS! :-)

So, I think the answer is for Korg, Yamaha, Roland, Ketron and Wersi to provide a STIMULUS (may as well join the group)package to the US to encourage the opening of lots of pubs! :-)

I personally will open one if provided with a Stimulus packge pay off! And I will by an arranger (maybe 2)to have on site for all the performers to come and play every night of the week. :-)

So, let's go gang...lets's open lots of pubs' party more, work less (like the rest of the world) and increase arranger sales..... :-)

I'll buy the first round!
I'm anxiously awaiting my stimulus payment.
Lee

I know what you mean, I'm also waiting for it so I can stimulate a new keyboard.

A good start for Roland, to hire ARRANGER players and people that KNOW arrangers, no workstations, and perhaps, post "decent" video demos and don't embarrass themselves.

Also to the rest of manufacturers, to spend a little more in promo and marketing the arrangers, perhaps, getting some of the arranger pro-players, since "we" are exposing the product constantly to captive audiences, either a "special" price or perhaps even free. (HINT)

I can say that I sold lots of T2s and Korgs PA50s, 1Xs and some 800s while I was working at the music store and also playing out in the Phoenix AZ area.


------------------
mdorantes

Instead of wasting energy that way ....more people should go and learn how to play their instruments better .....this way they won't keep blaming the KB instead of their own chops.

Er, there aren't a great deal in the Middle East, for obvious reasons!!

Seamaster...you got to be kidding...the Mid-East is full of arrangers...Korg's largest customer base as well. Just go to Youtube and search on PA800..Tons of folks.

Lee

I believe America has long been heading towards an almost totally non-involved music scene. Add to that the almost religious fervor for the bottom line (hire the cheapest entertainment you can ), and you can see how almost ALL the general public's music making is relegated to karaoke, where even THAT is primarily ONE person singing, and everybody else just watching, or Guitar Hero and Rock Band 'air guitar' faking...

Communal singing is pretty much non-existent (at least by European standards). Listen to any soccer match... (except over here!). They never STOP singing..! Maybe it's the culture of individualism, maybe it's the cutting back of school music programs (for decades), but it IS a shame that Americans don't like a good old sing-song.

Any US musicians got an explanation for why we hate to sing (as a nation)?

Of course this is speculation on all our parts, so here's mine. I honestly believe that, aside from the people on this forum, most Americans (who even know what an arranger keyboard is) don't really regard them as legitimate instruments. I'd be willing to bet that EVERY other musical instrument, from a harmonica to a Grand piano, outsells arrangers on a one-to-one basis. At their worst, they delude lousy musicians into thinking that they sound good; at their best, they free good singers with modest (or easily learned) keyboard skills from having to pay capable musicians to back them.

Europe? The venues where arrangers are popular could probably also be covered just as easily by an accordion. JMO.

chas

Diki, so you play the Nursing Homes? I take a song sheet with me and they sing their heads off.

Graham

Sorry Lee but your thread starts with a false premise.. It may have been true once but pubs in this country are closing so fast now that as a place of employment for musicians it is becoming extinct.. Those that remain mostly feature a genre which originated in Japan called Hara-Kiri, or something like that!!

Regards,
Trevor

To me, the arranger is just another tool of the trade.

I played solo piano for many years, and though I still love to play that way, using an arranger keyboard has opened up many more possibilities, especially nowadays...the more versatile you are, the more you work.

It works well for solo gigs, jam sessions with a buddy or two, and even has a place in the studio for doing quick, but effective backgrounds for song demos.

Only a few actual arranger "players" in my area...the rest use it as a SMF player and sing and play guitar along with the backing tracks.

I've never had anyone say anything negative about my using an arranger...at least to my face...and I have absolutely no regrets about digging in and learning how to make the most of it's great features...it has more than returned my investment of time by adding to my bank account as well as adding a new dimension to my solo playing.

Definitely a positive addition to my kit.

Still lots of work for me around my area as a solo arranger player specializing in in dinner music(instrumental) for restaurants and for private functions.

The bars/pubs hire DJs but also hire bands...quite a few of the latter have reverted to SMF backing...usually replacing the bass player and drummer...most bars have made the stages smaller to make more room for more patrons, and hence more profit....so if you want to play, you have to fit in the same space as the DJ.

I'm not doing any solo gigs until the spring...I don't like playing/moving gear in the winter.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-28-2009).]

Trevor...Shhhhhhh, be quiet please...the arranger manufactures are listening and we want out stimulus project...don't let the cat out that Europe is now declining in PUBS! Oh, No, Anything but pubs!

We need more pubs here so so we have more places to play...and need more arrangers.

From what everyone says arranger sales here in US are a lot less than the rest of the world, declining pubs or not. :-)
They are using them for something.

Trevor, what country?

Lee

IF they so badly want sales to go up > Make A Keyboard that is actually something
n-e-w! Perhaps able to load 3 or so MIDI's,able to copy parts from one Midi into another,32 parts instead of 16..the Keyboard sky is NOT even being expeirmented with on a technological level that we reside in with todays technology.Keyboards are like +10years behind schedule,i mean LOOK at some of those 60's 70's like styles STILL fixiated in there in the presets! It's as though it's afraid of itself or something with it's "lets throw in some SA voices,a whole new bunch sliders no one requested and call it a day"!..yup still awaiting for a releasement of a true adults toy of the musical sort.The T3 is simply how the T2 shouldda couldda been.


[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 01-28-2009).]

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 01-28-2009).]

Shall i go on exhaustinly..naaw.

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 01-28-2009).]

Trust me there are, probably more then in the US.
Pubs and Arrangers too. Thats why Yammy and Korg
hang on to ME and Estern Europe for dear life.
US in the US are like non existing to them.
On every US ARRANGER player there is probably
like 5 ME or Estern European players, especially
Mediteranian and Adriatic area.

Don't worry, Nedim... Karaoke will make it's way there sooner or later...

We thought it would never catch on here, either.

It is actually dying out in my area...it peaked about two years ago and has been on a slow decline since then.

DJ is still popular, but there are a lot more singles and duos, and two big bands have started up in the last year.

Ian

I agree with this assessment. Residing in a community with planty of OMB opportunities outside of Nursing homes and Mosse Clubs, Players don't consider them legitmate for live use but have no issue playing to backing tracks......There's s "stigma" with speakers on a keyboard as well. The TOTL Arrangers are more expensive then a TOTL Workstation in many cases.

Most keyboard players are far more familiar and would prefer spending $3000 on a Motif XS8 or M3 or Fantom then a Tyros, PA2x or what ever Roland has out now.

Plus the line between WS and Arrangers is becoming thinner...One can create their whole set on a WS using Arps and sequences and have 88 weighted keys which is a preference from what I see. Players here would rather play a Previa 320 with tracks then a PSR900 on a gig

I know that! . . . I was referring to PUBS. Not as common in predominantly islamic countries! I speak from (parched) experience!

I'm sorry to argue with the stated case against arrangers by the 'public', but I would have to say from experience that 99% of 'the public' have absolutely no clue about one kind of keyboard from another. It's got lights and buttons, and black and white keys. And that's all they know or care.

They couldn't tell an arranger from a WS, from a stage piano, from a Hammond clone.

All they know is whether what you DO on it makes them enjoy themselves or not...

I don't honestly know where any of this alleged bias against arrangers comes from. I have, in my entire career, never had ONE single person come up (public OR another musician) and deride me by going 'Oh, you're playing one of those ARRANGERS... ' To be honest, have any of you? Really? Or are you just saying something, that someone said to someone else (that they heard about from someone else)?

I have a sneaky suspicion that the bias comes from the PLAYER, and not the device. Plenty of bad arranger players out there! But there are just as many bad players of WS's as there are arrangers (OK, maybe a BIT less!), but somehow you don't hear WS players whine about the so-called 'bias' against WS's.

Do we really have that big a chip on our shoulders, or is it just the tendency of the poor craftsman to blame his tool?

I don't blame my tool. It's been very good to me.



chas

Well it used to, anyway.

chas

EXACTLY..Its not a public bias.....The bar owners could not care less, the patrons could not care less. It's the PLAYERS who don't want to show up on a gig with Speakered keyboards....or pay $3000+ for a 61 or 76 note unweighted keyboard when most of their playing lives have been on RD700s and workstations at far less cost. My wife says she would rather br free to play OVER a track with two hands not worrying if the arranger is going catch the proper chords if she is tad late or all the fongers don't get down quite the same time. She DOES use the Arranger to MAKE the tracks she uses though. For her its freedom not to be tired to an Arranger that depends on correct chord reconition on the spot everytime. ME I would play out in a heartbeat using an Arranger. Im in my opinion considering my playing abilities, an arranger can ADD to the overall sound. Fools them everytime.

Most pros around here are not the left hand chord organ players of the past. They play with a technisque that does not lend it self well to many arrangers chord recognition capailities across the board.

Thats why I believe Yamaha markets them to HOME users, does not make a 76 key Tyros , and sells them out of that division. Some "home users" play some gigs at non-traditional gigs like Lodges and Nursing homes, maybe a wedding if they are a relative....

Clearly a player's bias...Also we sell arrangers to mostly retired people for what its worth.


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-29-2009).]

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-29-2009).]

Yes, Kingfrog... I believe all but the self-taught 'home' arranger player has FAR more important things to do with their LH than slavishly play the damn chords all the time...

Doesn't stop me from using an arranger in preference to any other kind of keyboard, though, because in the ONE keyboard, you get all the rest thrown in. Most arrangers play sequences well, some play MP3's, and they have a live interface FAR better than WS's. Yet most of the capabilities (other than arp and loop stuff, which is only good for more contemporary musics).

I have LONG preferred plastic 76's as a size and action choice, because of the need to play both organ and piano from the same keyboard, and had several WS's in this size (still have a couple, actually!).

But a WS is kind of screwed when asked to do something you haven't already programmed in. In fact, you can't even get a drum machine with the kind of flexibility that a TOTL arranger has. The best of them merely link two patterns and maybe two fills. An arranger's drum section can have four patterns, seven fills, four Intros, four endings, breaks, you name it.

In fact, why HASN'T anyone made a drum machine this capable?

To be honest, other than modern beats, an arranger beats a WS hands down even at the things it is SUPPOSED to do. I certainly have never had to explain my use of an arranger in the studio or on 'call' gigs. I simply turn it on, start to play, and watch them smile! Drummer shows up late, no problem. Rhythm section shows up late, no problem. EVERYONE shows up late, no problem...

Can't really say that about a WS....

I've gotta' agree with Diki on this one. No one, in all the years I've been playing, both a guitar and keyboard, has ever come up to me and made a derogatory remark about the instrument, mic, amp, etc..--NO ONE. It just doesn't happen.

The audiences don't give a damned whether you're playing brand A, B, C, or any other brand. It makes absolutely no difference to them, and for the most part, it really doesn't make any difference to me. If it sounds good, then that's just fine. If you don't sound good, well, I guess someone will eventually tell you.

As for the pubs (corner bars), there are probably more of them in Baltimore than anyplace I've been in my life--and believe me I've been to lots of places throughout the world. At one time Baltimore was notorious for it's corner bars and there was literally one on nearly every corner in certain areas of Baltimore. Many have long since went out of business, but some areas, such as Hamden, Highlandtown, and much of East Baltimore still has hundreds of them. Most are quite small, some still have live music on weekends, most serve Italian food, and those still in operation do a thriving business.

Baltimore's Little Italy supports a fair number of OMB entertainers, many of whom play arranger keyboards every night of the week. I performed there for a while, but the pay for a 4 hour job is the same as it was 40 years ago. For the most part, I can make the same amount doing a NH job for one hour, and I don't have to put up with drunks and get home at 2 a.m..

So, we may not have as many arrangers here in the U.S. and they have in the U.K. And, those of us that use them to make a living playing an arranger hope it stays that way.

Cheers,

Gary

No you can't . the shear flexibility of an Arranger "on the fly" beats a pre programmed Workstation. However the problem comes for people who play using both hands across the whole keyboard and expect perfection in the arranger chord recognition.especially when I MIDI an 88 key board to it or on the Clavinova, For some reason the keyboard cannot follow the player the way it should. It simply is not there. I cannot speak to the Roland but I can the Korg and the Yamaha, I have asked numerous players to play any song like they would normally and I set the recognition on full keyboard and a royal mess results.

Not for me because I understand there is a different technique needed to pay an Arranger effectively and with that comes the flexibility to hit breaks and repeat choruses live when the room is live. I think the Arranger is far far better suited to LIVE OMBs then any workstation. I just cannot convince people around here that make their living in small clubs and bars to use one. Not even my own wife.

Don't get me wrong I personally love Arrangers and would not hesitate to use one live. My wife on the other hand finds it difficult to play and get the chord recognition exact where and when she wants it, so she takes the more predictable tracks and 88 keys. But she doesn't use the organ live either just piano. The tracks contain the other parts, Plus she plays the guitar live in some tracks and that would be tought with an arranger without a good foot pedal set up. She wants to KISS,,,,keep it simple Home made tracks and a couple live instruments in a Bose LT1.

Neither have I.

The arranger has given me an edge and allowed me to stand out from piano players that do restaurant gigs.

They have trouble playing an arranger because they can't keep their left hand still and just play chords...I don't have that problem having spent considerable time on the Electone.

I'm glad arranger players are rare in my area...it just means more work for me.

Ian

Lol Dikki, Karaoke is dying too, now everything
is based on MP3, just kids playing MP3s, its very sad.

Don't know if you heard this yet, Kingfrog, but this is me improvising in Pianostyle Mode on the G70...
. http://www.roland-arranger.com/smf/index.php?topic=444.0

Seems to track me fairly decently. I know I can't play COMPLETELY pianistically on an arranger, because with a piano, so much is implied rather than played, but I find I don't have to adjust my playing THAT much...

And then just adjusting to that 'don't play more than two notes at a time and the chord won't change' mode. You'd be amazed at how much you can play with just two notes, if your fingering is clean...

Pianostyle Mode with the OnBass (bass inversion) ON on a Roland is VERY pleasant for a pianist to adjust to, IMO...

Kingfrog,
Are you sure the Korg PA800/PA2XPRO was setup for EXPERT chord recognition, Chord scanning both upper and lower? And base inversion ON.


Works beautifully here.

Lee

Very Nice...and it tracked very well. The string line sounded overdubbed rather then implied. I'm liking the G70. If I could find one cheap I might add it to the arsenal.

The problem as I see it on the Yamaha appears more with up tempo music with quick chord changes. For a walk up player set on full keyboard on the Tyros or S900 I have observed it's a mess in action. Perhaps the G70 has much better AI?

I don't think the Yamaha gives one BOTH on Bass AND full keyboard AI. I still have a lot to learn about these things.

A nice smoky track you laid there.

I sold the Korg and bought the Tyros. I have set the keyboard to full mode for walk ups who play songs from their repertoire and I am not impressed (nor they) with the results.There is a technique involved even using full keyboard mode. two note vs three note etc.

For me it's great as I can play using chords. For a "pianist" the Tyros is not a good choice. But i have always claimed and still believe the Korg is the better live keyboard then the Yamahas for far more reasons than "Expert" chord mode.

Actually my wife "the real pianist in the family" misses the Korg PA2x. We may have to dig another one up........somewhere. I sold the Fender VG and am halfway there..LOL.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-31-2009).]

Maybe you should start saving for that Roland V-Piano

I have to admit, that one floated my boat in a BIG way. Just the inter-string tuning was enough to make me sit up and go 'Bloody hell!'

I liked it too...no unevenness on this one unless you deliberately make it that way.

Seriously, it almost seems like they took their Structured Adaptive Synthesis to the next level.

I really liked SAS Pianos, especially the later models...I also thought the old rotary oil damped weighted action had a great feel...reminded me of my old KX88 which I still think had the best action of any piano/controller.

Highly likely the V-Piano technology will drift down to arrangers eventually, perhaps to arrive on the next G if there is one, but most certainly on the next generation of RDs.

That would be cool.

Ian