"Lucky: Bill, I’m sorry but I have to disagree here about trying to reverse the “dumbing down” effect. You can’t keep taking from the System. You need to put something back in. It’s like this: would you keep withdrawing your money from your bank account without re-depositing something? Surely not, or you would eventually be broke. The same with music. One needs to keep reintroducing “good” MUSIC (notice I capitalized it) to the general public as compared to “putting something together and going on a cruise ship and just building up your assets with tips!” That’s selfish."

Lucky, I took a day or so to ponder this.
You say we have give back, reintroduce good music, otherwise, the system will go broke...

Would you please, define for me this "system" you refer to?

Thanks-


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Bill in Dayton

Excellent post Hellboy. Agree 100%

Dennis

Bill,

Sometimes I get a little "long-winded" and this is one of those times.

What I wrote in 10,000 words, Hellboy managed to sum it all up in a few sentences:

"we both work hard"

"I personally work my arse off...I see a lot of acts who seem to think that they have a right to be there, hard working or not."

"So many acts...don't seem to CARE about what they do."

In this case, giving back to the system, means (spiritually speaking and with a simplistic explanation) taking what you were given (musical talent), nurturing and working hard at what you were given, and afterwards giving it back to the "system" (people) after you've fully developed your talent, without concerning yourself with "what's in it for me?"

I need to tell you that many years ago, after having a very dramatic religious experience, I converted to Christianity and also got into Spirituality, Metaphysics, Science of the Mind, and, of course, religion.

In these circles, we talk a certain way and we understand each other (though it took me many years to learn how to do it). I tend to forgot NOT to talk that way in everyday life!

Lucky

Hellboy,

You certainly had me fooled. I thought you played that keyboard well particularly on the Jerry Lee Lewis licks.

I’m downloading the Buble version of Sway right now to listen to. I didn’t know there was one. I like the Dino version but also the Pussycat Dolls one.

If you feel you’re not at Rose’s level of singing yet, let me pass on the two statements (from singing teachers) that helped me the most.

a) singing is only speaking in pitch and with breath control

b) LISTEN to yourself sing

Though I’m a natural musician myself, it took me 15 years of lessons and hard work to learn to sing including practicing every day sitting alone in my car, but one day the penny dropped and I’m glad it’s all behind me now.

I could almost guess you are coming from the direction of being a percussionist. I noticed that in you as I was watching you play the keyboard…you definitely have rhythm in your licks.

Finally…..I always said a man is nothing without a woman in his life in some way, shape or form. They really bring us to life, don’t they?

Lucky

Lucky wrote: "...giving back to the system, means (spiritually speaking and with a simplistic explanation) taking what you were given (musical talent), nurturing and working hard at what you were given, and afterwards giving it back to the "system" (people) after you've fully developed your talent, without concerning yourself with "what's in it for me?"
______________________________________________

Lucky-Much to chew on in that statement...

...some random thoughts...

...some people can work their butts off practicing for hours a day and still not be very good. I think there's a place for people who love music, who don't have much talent but find a way to be entertaining to others.

...I know guys from my College days that were freakishly talented but became ill when it came to performing for audiences. They wanted no part of the "entertainment" end of things whatsoever...They wanted to work on their music, be left mostly alone and let the chips fall where they may...(I'd call these guys the "art-eests.")

...I do very few benefit performances. I collect a fee from all but two of my clients. Do you distinguish between those who perform for free out of some emotional motive and those who do so on a fee based agreement only?

...who has ever, "fully developed their talent?"

...My musical career, for the last, 14 years and for many of the last 30 years, has been all about me. I was not born into royalty and must earn a living while I'm on this world. Two decades ago I met a lovely young lady who is smarter than me and convinced her to marry me, (she did) and then to have children (we did). With the bliss from the now four women in my life, there also comes increased responsibility, duty and honor.

For me, I can't/won't be musical in a vacuum, so everything I do effects my loved ones. I think balance is critical in one's life and that too much of anything isn't good. I think selfishness can be a virtue, if it doesn't impede others ability to be "selfish" as well. I think many would say practical is a better word to use. Perhaps...

I don't imagine I'm breaking any new musical boundaries in my music...I do know I and many, many others in this forum provide a fairly sought after service. I suppose I could say I bring music to a very needy group of people who otherwise wouldn't get to hear it in the form that I provide it. Well, trust me, if I don't bring it, there's 5 guys named Moe lined up outside the door ready to step in. Do they do as well as I do, worse than I do? That's not my call...

So, Lucky, I'll ask you to consider this. A musician, who has not fully developed his musical skills, who freely admits a large chunk of what I do some 400 times a year is VERY much all about me and what do I get out of it, yet brings music, memories, smiles, tears and fellowship to upwards of 20 thousand people a year - where does he fall?

There is a real, tangible value and importance to what many of us do daily here. I submit, several of us effect more people than many more talented "art-eests" reach. I've seen that lifestyle up close...I've seen absolute wizards play but they were so fragile emotionally or wild with ego that they couldn't put it all together and find a happy way to weave their music into their daily lives.

"Bad, Bad Leroy Brown" surely is one of the dog songs of all time, yet I play it with great regularity. Why? Because invariably, it evokes emotion in my audiences and brings them pleasure. They smile, they wiggle, they dance...they remember when they danced with the love of their lives who they no doubt miss beyond words. To initiate that response and to get to view the intimacy that usually follows by playing mostly pop tunes of yesteryear, I have always thought to be a high privilege.

I think to rail against anyone who brings musical pleasure to others, is snobbish and trite. To bring this full circle, the guy on the cruise ship, whether I think he plays Piano Man the right way or not, is effecting people in a good way.

They had fun...

Period...

Everything else doesn't matter in the big scheme of things, I think.

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Bill in Dayton



[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 12-23-2008).]

Yep they sure do Lucky!


Ahhhh women.....

Thanks for your positive, constructive comments. Singing wise I'm currently working with that "Deva Method" (from Jeannie Deva) where she really works out your "singing muscles" in her warm ups. We warm up on the way to a gig, and just as importantly, Warm down AFTER the gig.

Gee you're spot on with the rhythmic licks talk - I really do approach the keyboard from a Drummers perspective, rightly or wrongly. I used to shy away from that approach, (I didn't want to be seen as the "dumb drummer" who bashes the keyboard) but I realized recently it's a pretty distinctive style, people enjoy it (and have told me so many many times at gigs) and it's a flashy, interesting "showbiz" approach to playing the board. What I'm careful to do though is practice my Hanon, Scales, and listen to what I'm playing musically and tonally. I have fun and do the simple, visually satisfying (to the audience) "drumming style" of keyboarding, but I'm careful now to work towards using pitch, variation, and being musical in a song - the best of both worlds I hope - I'm not there yet by a LONG shot, but everyday I get a little more like a "real" musician if you know what I mean....

(One good thing about being a former drummer: my timing is actually VERY good - I really DO know where "1" is, and so what I lack in musicality at the moment, I try to make up for with some "cool timings" - things like Syncopation, Polyrhythmic playing, and putting real feel in to a part to compensate for the more "robotic" feel you get playing over even good Midi backings)

Hell I made a great living and saw the world for 12 years impersonating Neil Diamond. Nothing groundbreaking about that nor did I break any musical barriers but I sold a ton of poorly produced homemade CDs of my own music to satisfied customers,

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 12-23-2008).]

Bill.....I could say the same thing about drugs. Ask an addict and he will tell you the drug is affecting me “in a good way.” That’s fine for the moment, but in the long run, what's the result?

My greatest nightmare is that this fellow's performance becomes the standard in entertainment and the Luciano Pavarotti's of the world are completely forgotten!

But....keep up the thinkin'. I like folks who "think." I wish I had more time to!

Lucky

Merry Christmas, Lucky...

I don't think your example holds water...The guy on the cruise ship is bringing visceral enjoyment to others. The drug addict, most would grant, is A-likely hurting or harming (directly) only himself...and B-Engaging in probable illegal behavior.

We'd both agree some musicians out there (perhaps me?) should be locked up until hell freezes over, but I digress...

I think quality music, like water finds its own level. To the masses, KISS were a far, far greater musical entity than was Kansas. You ask most musicians, and you get a totally different answer.

You listen to the stars of today's music. I think they have some amazing chops. What I think they lack is mainly the "fill in the blank with the word of your choice" that I'd call "taste." The wild, excessive mutilations of the melody at the end of phrases, especially drive me crazy. I think its mostly style and little substance. Just because you can swoop and vocally riff on some string of notes doesn't mean you should. It seems to be flash for the sake of flash. Brittany Spears, Mariah Carey, etc...they all seem to do this a lot.

But they are vastly more popular than me, Gary, Donnie, Mason, Dave M., Kingfrog, etc. What they do has mass appeal, for sure.

Are they the "standard" in today's pop music...yes and that tells us alot about the audiences...As was said earlier, Bach, Gershwin, Dylan were all told their art was no good...The burden on us is to be open enough to the music of today as to not miss the new geniuses at work. If we can be strong enough musically to put our feelings and loyalties aside and really listen to the music of today, (yes, its painfully hard sometimes...), we may find some pretty cool stuff.

Are the kings like Pavarotti forgotten? Not hardly...But consider who The king of the high C's was working with in the last years of his life...mostly pop stars...

...and that, courtesy of Luciano Pavarotti himself, perhaps brings us full circle...

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Bill in Dayton

Interesting clip from a documentary called Before the Music Dies.

How to Create a Sexy Pop Star: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irk3_p15RJY .

Worth five minutes of your time?
Dan

[This message has been edited by big741.1 (edited 12-25-2008).]