http://roland-arranger.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=38&?topic=1008.msg6214;topicseen#new

Fran Wrote: ...
"here is a thought...why should any keyboard that can be upgraded via software updates....receive a final upgrade..

I think Roland should retain a small staff to continue with upgrades and improvements with keyboards like the G70 and E80...They should continue the support..Just think how well that could speak for the company..

When customers purchase the top of the line products...continue the support..These instruments can be upgraded with new features without a lot of hassle or cost...It seems a shame not to allow these instruments to evolve into what they can be...the best...

They are built for durability..and we purchase them for this reason...why not continue the benefits that can be ours in the future..

And I don't believe Roland would lose sales..I think they would gain sales from the other camps with support like this..."

I agree Fran.., but in the end it's all about profits. Look at the dough Yamaha rakes in with the Tyros line. Your upgrade is the new model.

We give Dom hell about the MS, but at the core his concept IS the future of keyboard sales. Dom's having issues getting that point out probably because his concept is about 20 years ahead of its time.

**Once upon a time "seatbelts" were ahead of their time..., and those who we considered "educated and intelligent" decision makers said that a car that requires the occupants to be restrained is "unsafe". How many lives were lost before we realized how very wrong they were?

The day is coming for keeping your current board and paying less to upgrade, but we're not anywhere near that yet. Too much money still to be made on buying the next and greatest arranger or workstation. In 20 years Dom's going to be smoking a fat ass stogey and laughing at us all


[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-11-2008).]

With all manufacturers, it's often about planned obsolescense...color changes...new graphics...anything to be able to sell new units. Think of the vehicle manufacturers.
Yamaha is the champion of planned upgrades designed to move product more than pure improvements to the product. Roland sometimes does the same thing.

I bought my ugly grey GW-7, and before I used it, the black GW-8 was on the shelves. Now, before you say it, I admit that the time period could have been years, and that there are significant improvements to the GW-8 over the GW-7, but you get the point.

Over the years Peavy and Fender have made cosmetic changes to amplifier cabinets with basically the same "guts" in them.

Great idea, Fran, but, sadly, none of the majors will ever go for it.


Russ

In realistic terms, an arranger keyboard, synth and loads of other electronic musical instruments are nothing more than small computers with piano keys or strings. They were all programmed initially, and if we knew or were smart enough to know exactly how they were programmed we could do our own upgrades using the PC. Unfortunately, this information is locked securely in vaults of the various manufacturers. Best advice is to learn everything there is to know about the keyboard you own. You would be amazed at what's inside.

Gary

Gary, that is very true..In fact a well known engineer friend (not to be named)..was going to re design a eprom for my G1000...but needed the Roland data format to reverse engineer ....and yes they do not want to release this info..even to a certified engineer..

A new concept would be to buy a base unit with Key-bed grade you desire in 61/76/88 key choices.....then be able to ADD at your discretion 1,2,3,4, etc, modules of your choice to just snap into the KB ....eg: Vocal harmony, Style libraries, Sound libraries, SMF/Mp3 players, Sampler, etc, .......in other words
"Make the KB your Own"

Ahhhhhh whats the use?....

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-11-2008).]

That instrument is called a MediaStation...

Yes..., it's called the Mediastation. However, the Mediastation and it's concept is 20 years ahead of its time Far too much profit still to be made with our current system of "buying the new impoved lemon fresh model".

Korg's getting there.., and has shown what can be done via an OS upgrade with this most recent release of theirs.

And the price is also way ahead of its time.. At current exchange rates a Media Station Pro would cost well over $10,000 in Australia.

And I also advise people downunder to not get TOO excited about the Audya either.It's price tag out here will be near the $8000 mark.

Dennis

PS: The initial thread post wasn't a bad idea either

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 12-11-2008).]

The problem with all this is that there ARE hardware issues. The RAM for the OS is limited. Every time you add a new feature, less remains. At this point (after TWO major upgrades and feature additions), I suspect it is gone. Roland Europe DID, at one time, answer a direct question (about the .bmp viewer) with the information that there were hardware issues with the G70 that made this feature impossible on the G70.

I think, at this point though, that Roland needs to get on with the NEW arrangers. I sure don't remember so much bitching about the G1000, because there WAS a newer arranger for those hitting the wall on the G1000. This is no longer the case. The G70 is IT, as far as TOTL 76's in Roland's arranger lineup.

The E80 does have an upgrade path, though. It's already on OS2, which added the MP3 player amongst other things, and has quite a few OS improvements over the G70. To be honest, I can't understand the reason why Roland hasn't simply packaged the E80's innards in the G70's skin, and come out with a quick fix 'G80'...

One of my pet theories is that Roland basically shot themselves in the foot with the rushed out OS1 G70. It went over poorly with a LOT of older Roland fans, that had moved on to Yamaha or Korg while the inept VA-series ran it's course, with poorly balanced styles and too much reverb (thank you! Roland Europe - why are Europeans so addicted to reverb? ) and an OTS system that made little sense.

OS2 and OS3 addressed most of the issues, but the damage had been done. And, in Roland's eyes, after spending all that money on OS2 & 3, sales did NOT pick up significantly. Hence, I imagine, their reticence at making yet ANOTHER free upgrade, which won't do much to sales present OR future.

For me, there are only a few niggles left, and none of them are of course deal-breakers (or I wouldn't still be using it!). Would I LOVE to see Roland finally address them? Sure. Do I expect it? Not at all. Can I use my G70 in the meantime? You bet! Will I buy the next Roland 76 G-series? If it is sufficiently better than the G70.

I STILL can't get into Korg's (not enough fills, too weird a file system, not easy enough style and SMF editing, wanky B3 and piano IMO) Yamaha don't think anybody can play piano that uses an arranger (or they would make a 76), Wersi and Ketron make arrangers for wealthy retirees, not poor hard working pros!

What choice do I have?

Fair enough points I guess.

I do agree that had Roland put the E-80 into a G70 shell, sans speakers, it would have been a good idea.

Dennis

I guess I'll wait till Yamaha makes a Modular interchangable Tyros

Korg is kinda on track with this.. Look at what you can do with the M3... These synths let you mount the Radias R..., and I think the 88 key version allows you to mount both the Radias R.., and a second M3 Module... A very cool thing to look to in the future if you don't want to dish out more dough for a full keyboard.

Donny I think the Media Station is a brilliant concept, and is EXACTLY what one would need to create their own system as Fran has mentioned above, but it's way too expensive......Now!

Yes I know I could have got one for 1000 Euros, but I am not in the financial position of some and I had to sell my keyboard to finance the purchase, only to find that (and through no fault of his) Dom had to put back the shipping date, a couple of times which then left me out on a limb as far as work went..

I had to VERY reluctantly pull out of buying one, because I just HAD to have a setup for some work that I could not cancel.

I had managed to get out of other gig dates (because of no keyboard) or get fill-ins, but some I just HAD to do.

Of course then the global financial crisis hit which then sent the cost of the MS soaring. So no I have the G70...Good keyboard that it is, it's not a Media Station.

Neither is anything Yamaha or Korg are going to serve up over the next 2 years either.

Dennis

The trouble with the MS is that the CONCEPT is twenty years ahead of us, but the EXECUTION is twenty years behind.

Cutting edge design, tied to sounds and styles fit for a Casio!

Is that what you really want? Because, the way I see it, hardly anybody here does anything at ALL to their arranger, other than maybe going out and finding some new styles or converted styles on the web, and usually discarding those that need any significant work to sound good...

You pull it out of the box, you switch it on, and you PLAY IT...

Maybe change some OTS, some key layouts, that's it TOPS.

The MS, you are going to have to do EVERYTHING yourself. Find the styles. Make the styles. Voice the styles. Create a whole VSTi soundset for the arranger. Balance them all against each other. Learn Linux. Learn loop slicing. Buy, or create your own loop libraries.

After all that (and more), you MIGHT be able to get it to sound as good as a PA2Xpro, or a T3, or a G70.

You MIGHT....

So far, Dom certainly hasn't, and he designed the thing! What are YOUR odds?

Dennis....

I have played a MS at Frans studio last year and enjoyed it once you get he hang of it....although some time later it is much more improved as I have read. The MS has so much promise and is a wonderful ergonomically designed unit with a super quality build, the buttons & large screen are a pleasure.....the features take a while to get used to but it all makes sense once you play for a while. This is not a beginners KB but I would say with some diligent learning you will feel comfortable in a short while. It can do so many things beyond the average arranger & is always a work in progress. Hopefully things will work out for MS in the future. Dominic is surly trying hard to make that a reality!

I sure hope so too Donny.. I even considered setting up a small company and then applying to be the wholesaler and to import them into Australia, but they would be way too expensive to sell even one or two a year.

I hope he can generate enough sales so the price can come down somewhat.

As a long term keyboard user (and arranger keyboard user) in Oz, I would reckon a retail (your MRP) price of about 2300 Euros (about $4500) would put it in the ball park. But NOT 5000 euros!!

Dennis

Dennis......I hope your right & another scenario could be a takeover of MS by a bigger company....or another manufacturer takes some of the MS ideas in their own way and implement them in to Totaly new arranger in the future putting MS out of commission altogether.

Donny I think your observation....

"or another manufacturer takes some of the MS ideas in their own way and implement them in to Totaly new arranger in the future putting MS out of commission altogether".....

may very well end up being quite prophetic!!

Dennis

Actually, I have been anticipating (although I am not aware of anything) for Muse to do something like incorporating their Receptor into a keyboard and then allowing users to load up their own software.

Or there is also the option of doing it D.I.Y. After all, Linux software is ALL open source, so I could see no reason why a person could not load something like Q-ranger, OR Q-tractor on a Linux equipped laptop for example, add a controller keyboard, and there you have it.. a pseudo Media Station. I know it's not QUITE as simple as that, but definitely do-able.

One Man Band sort of got it okay, but restricted itself to Windows and linked only to Yamaha style types, which are notoriously complicated.

There is no doubt Dom is on the right track. And you and I both know that when a major company sees a good idea, instead of copying they just buy it!!

Dennis

Diki,

Once again all conjecture on your part. You've never seen a Mediastation in person let alone played one so you're talking out of your rear. Dom's execution is hardly 20 years behind, the MS sounds great and has fantastic capabilities. Its styles may not be on par with the big three but it certainly isn't lacking for sounds. If there were a Casio, Roland, Yamaha, Korg, or Ketron product that could do half of what the MS can I doubt you'd be bashing them. Dom's marketing strategy may not be to your liking but your incessant ranting about what a pile of crap the MS is has really gotten old.

Ensnareyou..., don't even waste your time man. I enjoy many of Diki's posts, but geez oh man..., this guy totally trashes a keyboard he has never even laid hands on.... I agree the styles aren't up to par with the big three, but Diki come off it man.... It's getting old.., just give it a rest for Pete's sake.

For live play OMB isn't fluid enough....but I also hop in teh future that someone will make a software program that can be Midi's up to a lightweight controller and operated in an EASY "LIVE PLAY" FASHION just as a real arranger can work....In today's high technology it's definitly time for this wouldn't you say?

Donny.., watch what you ask for Before you know it a 5 piece band will be 5 guys/gals between the ages of 18-21 each armed with nothing but an ipod and egos twice the size of the stage....

Exactly. I agree. Right on.

Just like dell makes customized computers, why shouldsn't there be customizable KEYBOARDS???

Yamaha and Korg (and roland..) Wake Up!!! We're in 2008!

I agree totally Donny...
I have been considering a move to an I-Mac, but I might investigate Linux further I think, and just see what programs are out there.

The last time I really researched Linux+music was a few years ago.

Now, I THINK, Q-ranger and Q-tractor are both open source linux software,and Dom has ported them to run on his particular hardware configuration, as I said before I can see no reason why this could not be done on other hardware platforms as well.

But again, you are spot-on and you would think there would be more available, "PC"-wise.

Surely there is a programmer somewhere who could write this sort of software??

I am not a programmer, but maybe OMB itself could be modified to be a bit more generic...like...Jammer Live, which was really good and quick and I evne had the patches all set up for the Motif ES, but they stopped at version 1??

So maybe there is not a big enough market?

Then again with the financial crisis, maybe software can be viable again?

Dennis

I suspect Diki may be getting a Media Station soon Squeak, so the "trashing" may indeed cease!!

Of course I could be totally wrong, but some things Dom has said, and Diki's renewed interest ONLY in the sample loading times, and the loading of instruments on the Audya, nothing else, not the styles, not the sounds, just sample information, has sent a return ping to my radar, in any case!!

That and the fact he hasn't responded to a direct question in another thread....

And hasn't he been pestering Dom about getting one for free so HE could program some real styles and help Dom show off the Media Station in the best possible way?

Now I don't think he's getting one for free, but it won't be terribly expensive either...Just a hunch

Anyway time will tell I suppose...

Dennis

Squeak thats almost the Norm RIGHT NOW!!!!
They already have Ipod DJ mixers.... http://www.numark.com/idj2

It's the knowledge of what to play & when that they DON'T have




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-11-2008).]

Actually there is a product (Software) that has been available at a very reasonable price for some time now, however up until recent times has always been a bit short in the total integration market.
With the release of V10.5 I think they are pretty much there and worthwhile having a look at.
Here is the link www.live-styler.de

Regards

Bill

LOL.... what fevered imaginations you all have..

Unless I got one for free, I would NEVER get an MS. You see, for all your praising of the MS's technical merits (which I agree with, BTW) no-one has managed to convert that into a demo that even rivals my G70, yet alone a T3 or OS2 PA2Xpro. I take that as a VERY telling indicator. All the praise for the OS, and none for any MUSIC made by it.

For all my interest in things technical, they are all secondary to making music. I don't care if it based on Linux, or Vista, or an Atari Falcon I only care about what it can do MUSICALLY.

Now, perhaps you guys are just more forgiving than me, but if I buy an arranger, I want an arranger. I don't want a blank sheet of paper to make it anything I want. And, from being here for quite a while, I think that the vast majority of arranger players think exactly the same. Just how many T3's would be sold if you had to go out and make the styles yourself? How many PA2Xpro would be sold if the onboard voices were VERY humdrum, and you had to purchase a large selection of VSTi's to compensate (and THEN spend months completely re-voicing all the styles to use the VSTi's)?

You see, every last person praising the MS on this thread has not made ONE good piece of music on it... Dom (IMO) hasn't posted ONE good piece of music on his website. I heard OPNE good piece of klezmer music a while back, that turned out to be an SMF, done on an MS. I don't need a VSTi player that plays SMF's. A laptop can do that adequately. If this thing is SO advanced, SO cutting edge, SO amazing....

WHERE'S ALL THE GREAT MUSIC?

The thing has been out for what, over two years? I don't know about you, but give me a great arranger, I can make something decent in TWO MINUTES What could the holdup be, other than you CAN'T make great music on it? Is there some kind of NDA to stop you from posting..? Bull!

If ALL the current MS owners can't post something decent on the web, something that is in style mode, what on earth gives any of you the impression that, in YOUR hands, things would be any different..? We've got actual MS owners on this site. NOT ONE of them has ever posted anything good. But they still talk, and talk, and talk. I'm sick of it. STFU and PLAY me some good music, or don't waste your breath.

I am NOT singling out MS for this treatment. I assure you that, were Roland completely incapable of making a decent demo for the G70, and NONE of it's owners willing to post a SINGLE piece of music done on it, I would have been EXTREMELY leery of it. If all the T3 demos sucked, and not ONE owner was capable of posting something decent, I am convinced none of you would be so gung-ho about it.

And the crazy thing is other than a couple of members here that actually have MS's (but mysteriously NEVER post a single thing done on them), all of you are as completely in the dark as me. You haven't seen one, you haven't played one, you haven't listened to the styles. You don't know what the keybed feels like, you don't know how easy or not it is to use. BUT.....

You all ASSUME it's going to be great! Me I ASSUME it's going to be terrible! How are we ANY different?

I'll tell you... I've heard PLENTY of proof of my assumptions, and you haven't heard ANY proof of yours.. Even those that DO own one. Where's your great music..?

Where... Where... where...?

Plenty of great Tyros demos. Plenty of Korg stuff that sounds great. Even quite a bit of Roland stuff that sounds decent Where is the MS section? That's right... NOWHERE!

It's a great thing to be impressed by specs. But it doesn't translate to whether it's a good ARRANGER or not. If my G70 had 24 bit, 96kHz D/A converters, it would not be the slightest bit better as an arranger. The LAST thing in the world I would ever ask for are better converters. Better styles, yes... better sounds... yes... a better OS, yes... Those same things are what I would need to HEAR on the MS before it held the slightest interest for me.

And the rest of you? If you don't already use 100% user made styles, if you don't already use 100% user created sounds, if you don't already use computer sequencers and computer based VSTi production, if you aren't already the most technical member here at SZ, this is just a pipe dream (and we know what kind of pipe!). It all sounds good on PAPER. Me, I hold paper up to my ears, the only thing I hear is rustling.

When you listen to everything posted so far, does it honestly impress you? If so, go for it! But until it impresses ME, nothing you guys say can change my opinion of the MS. MUSIC is what impresses me. I can't say whether I will be getting an Audya or not. But at least the demos have not convinced me NOT to. Apparently, SOMEBODY at Audya can get it to sound great! Why does Dom have so much trouble? Why do ALL the current owners of the MS have so much trouble..?

Before you attack me, come up with an answer for THAT one.

After that negative rant about the MS, who in their right mind would post a demo?

I know I would not if I had one. No matter how great sounding the styles and sounds were.

Exactly!

That is utter bullsh*t and you know it...

Post something that even gets CLOSE to a T3, and I will be the FIRST to acknowledge it! Unlike some here at SZ, I have nothing but a pair of ears. No axe to grind, no fanboy baggage to inflict upon you.

You might have noticed that, after giving my frank opinion about the Audya's potential, I am in there with the first posters saying how GREAT the demos are... Sure, they don't answer ALL my concerns, but what you DON'T see me doing is putting them down because I have any bias. Perhaps that's the way YOU guys think, but I am insulted you would assume this from me...

And the intimation that you wouldn't post anything because of the poor reception you might get from me is utter rubbish! Either you think you HAVE got some great music to post (in which case, what does it matter what I think?) or you DON'T.

My opinion is that you DON'T, because you would have posted it by now. Everybody that posts ANYTHING here runs the risk of it being accepted poorly. But, mysteriously, they still do. And you know what? I have never heard anything that didn't suck get anything but a great reception, here. And that which DID suck got a drubbing regardless of what instrument it was made on. Post some crap on a G70, and I'll call it out. Post something great on an MS, and that is what I'll call it.

Don't lump me in with all the bullsh*t bias YOU all demonstrate so often. If it sounds great, I'll be the FIRST to say it (if you give me time!).

So, there you have it... Post something good, or quit talking about it. Because talking time is OVER.

PUT UP OR SHUT UP....

Don't feel that way, its only one persons opinion nothing more. You have to enjoy the KB. Do what makes you happy.

d.

Diki, I support your line of reasoning 99.5% of the time.....but, doesn't the above statement say more about the player than the machine? The .5% of me is just asking.

chas

PS: For the record, I think Diki has been very fair (and constructive) in the very few performance critiques that he has posted on this board. There are others here I'd be way more concerned about. On the other hand, if your performance really sucks, I don't think anybody should be feeding your delusions. If you absolutely HAVE to say something about a clearly lousy performance, limit it to "Thank you for sharing".

chas

Only somebody that wanted to PROVE the nay-sayers wrong...

Doesn't appear to be anyone that wants to do that. Why could this be? I guess they must LIKE keeping the good stuff all to themselves.

Or maybe there just ISN'T any...

Tell us all about the converters again. I mean, who wants to listen to MUSIC?

But chas, what does this say about purchasers of MS's?

Are they ALL terrible players? What are the odds of that?

Or perhaps, only terrible players would buy an instrument based entirely on the hype and specs, despite ALL the terrible sounding demos, on the assumption that in THEIR hands, magically they will transform it into the best keyboard in the world?! To be honest, I don't really see a true pro going that route.

If the factory can't make it sound great, if none of it's owners can make it sound great, who in their right minds has a sufficiently large ego to think that THEY are going to be the first to do so? Certainly not me, and I perhaps have more experience with VSTi's, editing styles and computer based production than many on this forum. If the manufacturer themselves can't get it right, who can? What's the last instrument you ever heard where the factory made TERRIBLE demos, all it's users turned out lousy demos, but it turned out to be a great keyboard?

I can't think of one.

You know what would shut me up permanently? A great arranger demo on the MS... Something along the lines of the T3, PA2Xpro or Audya stuff. When I hear it, all this will change. Until I do, I prefer to assume that what I have heard IS what I will get. I have no idea why anyone else would think differently. I assume that if I buy a T3, it will sound like the demos. If I buy an E80, it will sound like the demos. If I buy a C1, it will sound like the demos.

Why does the MS get a free pass..? What is it about this product that makes people suspend their disbelief? Because, after TWO YEARS of them being out there, if they really WERE that much better than the demos, somebody by now would have posted SOMETHING. People are posting decent stuff on the T3 WEEKS after it's release. Two YEARS, and nothing...!

I guess I am simply too old for fairy tales any more

Apparently, there are plenty on this forum who still believe in Santa and Little Red Riding Hood.