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#249395 - 02/08/09 01:56 PM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
Common Diki get real!! INTERNET sales rule in todays world ....its a new ball game baby!


Don;t feel sorry for loacl brick and mortar stores. Not all of them are struggling. The smart ones know what to carry and more importantly............. what NOT to.
And Thats why we don't carry any Pro Level Workstations and only one Tyros 3 and no PA2x or PA800's but we do carry lots of and sell MOTL Arrangers...!

Yes the Internet is a good place to buy and Big wow save the TAX!!! LOL. But expect to see and touch the product for the first time and Pay dearly to return it negating and tax savings.

In choosing product selection wisely, Online sales are not all that harmful to MI. Where MI used to make 50%-60% profit, the margins are half that now. Ya think thats THATS why Best Buy is is going into the MI business?.

Way higher margins than TVs and PCs. (Frank knows)

The store I work has over a million net in inventory and everything down to the pick holders are PAID for. No flooring of Grand Pianos or anyone's products, No bank loans. Thats the way to stay successful in times like these. Zero debt,no financing and we dropped Gibson a few years ago after (25 years) not willing to be a "profitable warehouse" for their requirements and other manufacturers who believe they are selling the Holy Grail. Gibson lost 80% of their independents, I'm sure it was part of their "new" business plan under Henry. They are calling but no one is picking up the phone.

We lost nothing in revenue, Replaced them easily. OF all musicians, Pro keyboard players are the worst in local demonstrators and on line buyers. We tried selling the TOTL Workstations and Arrangers, They were demoed a lot but did not sell. We did not reorder, Guitar players tend to buy what they play (especially the high dollar stuff). Piano, DJ, Home studio and local PA buyers want local support from people who can teach them how to use the gear or a place to go to get a blown amp or speaker handled now for tonights gig.

Especially being a store that is open 12 hours a day 7 days a week and closes 2 days a year because we are a two level store in a MAll anchored by JC Pennys, Neiman,and Sears, The additional rent negates the need for an advertising budget everyone knows who we are,where we are and what we sell in town and those who come from out of town.

We sell and stock primarily MOTL arrangers because the people who buy them tend to NEED support and a place to go to have their questions answered and free lessons on how to use them,therefore are less inclined to buy online to save $100 tax.

We are paid an inconsequential 2.5 -5% "commission" on serial number item and don't hire kids for little money. Our youngest employee is over 35 (which makes medical costs higher for the owner but pays itself back in zero in house shrinkage and commitment and work ethic) most of the three non family members who work here have other income and come to "work" because they ENJOY it.

All That benefits the customer in that we can and will turn over anyone to some who knows more about playing a particular instrument or item without worrying about commission loss. We hire people that can DEMO ANYTHING in the store and specialize in a few areas that are not afraid to call on another sales guy for help on a product they don't play or know as well. What are they going to lose? $7 on a $300 bass? LOL

We have 9 employees two of us work 30 hours a week by choice,one works 20. There are no managers, no targets, no processes. We ALL manage our specialty. We know the break even point and have complete flexibility in pricing, no running to the boss for "approval," no targets, and with all this, the owner is hugely successful and still works 10 hour days in his late 60's. Go figure. No Internet sales presence. That requires another full time person and a warehouse.

The owner who has had a few stores for 35 years is happy with just one now the way things are. I have never worked for a better human being. I worked for a major Corp for years early in life and never received a couple thousand dollar Christmas bonus,working part time, at a friggin music store!! just because the "boss" likes to share his profits. We go the extra mile because we like THE WAY HE DOES BUSINESS.We are all musicians and know the business of BUYING. We understand the customers.


Hire kids pay them nothing for the "privilege " of working for you and there you you go. Guitar Center. Independents can compete with the Internet. Just have to be cash and carry and hire good people who care about the business because they care about the owner and are passionate about music or some aspect of it.

The margins are good because Best Buy is getting into MI and the margins although 1/2 of what the were are before the Internet deluge and MAP pricing are still far higher then TVs and computers,

When places like GC cannot stay healthy in a MAP environment owning an Internet store, you know the margins are still good for those who can pay as they go and stay away from credit to operate their businesses. Remember MAP is ONLY an Advertising price. Dealers can sell a Tyros or Korg PA2x for $2800 or less if they want to, We can but we don't need to. We can afford to wait for a buyer who needs the support and sell something else with higher margins, in the meantime.

So why carry the Tyros at all? Because I sell 90% of the PSR900s off a Tyros Demo. Go from $4000 to $1700 using the same styles and sounds, then explaining what the additional $2300 buys them in the T3 and the PSr s900 is a slam dunk.


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-08-2009).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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#249396 - 02/08/09 02:06 PM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Another thing that's is a cause for stores downfalls is the horrible sales personnel who have no clue whats going on besides not having any inventory that most people are looking for. Just walk around one of these stores and you'll see what I mean...ask a question and its LA LA Land....the customer know so much more when he walks in then any of the people working there ....although I did get a straight answer a few weeks ago at a GC store..... I asked where the men's room was an sure enough to my surprise they knew where that was go figure


Oh well tomorrow Fran is talking me gear shopping again and I'll have to indure this scenario all over again...

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#249397 - 02/08/09 02:54 PM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by rsm2000e:


" Once I fire up my Beringer keyboard amp I'll 'know' what this thing 'really' sounds like."


$300 for their speakers? Please! You can buy a Beringer keyboard amp street price for that price point with 15" woofer, tweeter, eq, oh well, you get my point...



Tell me i did not just read that? A BEHRINGER keyboard Amp is going to reveal; the true sound of the TYROS? You will have more luck with Logitech!! We carry Behringer. Strictly price point product. ROLAND makes a keyboard Amp. The Yamaha Stock Tyros Speakers are better representation of the Tyros then a Beringer amp unless LOUD is the criteria for better. The PAS300 is the next step up as its even Stereo!

Quote:
I guess it all boils down to a fairness issue. You say it's unfair to shop a store and buy elsewhere at a better price. If the brick/mortar guy was even a LITTLE flexible, I would have bought straight away from THEM. I was told that the MAP price was FIRM on the T3 because of 'high demand'. So that's on THE RETAILER. If you know the spread between wholesale and MAP, it's a serious percentage profit! Yes, they have overhead, but you should see the dollar-volume a store like GC does on a given day. It's mind-boggling! Something on the order of Costco!


Another GEM... DO you really think I want to sell 4 Tyros' to make the same as selling ONE waiting for the right buyer. in the mean time using it to sell pallets of PSR S900s?

I would rather use the time (and warehouse space) to sell a $300 Samick and a million other products that turn over far quicker at the SAME margins, rather then spending hours to demo a keyboard for the same dollars a couple of far faster selling cheap guitars would net.


Business 101 - VOLUME does NOT make up for margin over the long run in a small market business.

Maybe at Costco and Walmart and the A&P or 7-11. Not at the local MI store. Even GC is learning Volume sales aren't the ticket. Try to buy at GC lower than MAP nowadays.

The MARGIN between wholesale and map is the same on a PSR 213 and a Clavinova when you conduct business using MARGIN as it should be conducted. Margin is everything. Not dollar spread. Most Fender has the same MAP margins whether $5000 custom shop or $100 Squires. If a dealer is willing to give up margin he probably is in another business with thin margins and is already set up for it and is selling the non mainline gear as a sideline for lower margins yet HIGHER then they are used to. Best Buy saw that as well........Betcha Best Buy will sell at MAP pricing even though in their case, MI will be a sideline business. Betcha Best Buy sales "associates" will have to go running to a "manager" for a $5 discount approval.

In fact from what I see locally they are selling above MAP. We easily beat their prices and have far more flexibility to do so and far more inventory.

Now that said, I will sell well below MAP to a regular customer, an overstock, a floor model, a cash buyer, or if we are not renewing a line, need to make room for a new line and MAP no longer is relevant.

IE What Seattle Music is doing with their Gibson product in Ebay right now since they too dropped the line. There are a few things that buyers have to pay up for for local support or they can buy off the Internet and take their chances to save the tax. We don't compete with low ball sellers. The masses don't know who they are. Its not Sweetwater Sound. LOL. But Thats the reason for MAP policy. Without MAP NO local stores would exist. Manufacturers are not that stupid to think everyone will people will buy sight unseen on line. MAP protects the brick and Mortar Stores. Its not "price fixing" We can sell anything for any price we choose. We cannot ADVERTISE those prices though Our computers all have Internet and I look everything up with the customer. Keep in mind successful businesses and products don't HAVE to be deeply discounted. Only unsuccessful ones in trouble needing every dollar in cash flow to to make a note payment stay afloat go into that death spiral.

Who works harder for the same money the Chevy Salesman of the BMW Salesman? Who HAS to discount more? Which company is more successful? Treat BMWs like Chevys and no one will want a BMW .


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-08-2009).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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#249398 - 02/08/09 10:26 PM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14208
Loc: NW Florida
Look, here's the point...

Would you buy a $3500 arranger without playing it first..? If you would, well, fine.

But even you thought it necessary to drive into the city, and play one. Now imagine a world where all but the few stores that survive going bottom dollar (and even flourishing chains like Mars have gone bust playing that game) close down, or, as Kingfrog points out, only stock items that move quickly. TOTL arrangers are NOT in that category.

So, your opportunity to try one out dries up completely, and you are FORCED to 'buy before you try'. Maybe you live in the NY area, or another highly dense population area. You MIGHT have one of the handful of surviving stores that stock these. But odds are, you are not. So, the question again... would you buy a $3500 arranger without playing it first?

No?

I guess the 'honorable' thing to do then, would be to ask the store FIRST about the price, and if they won't match your online quote, DON'T PLAY THE ARRANGER IN THE STORE... You aren't going to buy from him, why should he give you a free demo, knowing you'll not give him your business?

Would you play a free gig for someone, knowing they weren't going to hire you again? I doubt it. But you'll happily go into someone's store, play his very expensive arranger, and walk out and buy it elsewhere...

Mark my words. Keep this up, and virtually NO-ONE will stock them at all (remind you of what's actually happening? )
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#249399 - 02/09/09 01:48 AM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
spalding Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 582
Loc: Birmingham
The Key to the survival of bricks and mortar stores is to add value which is the same principle for any business to survive in a price competitive environment. The internet based sellers are limited in the additional value they can add as they are driven by price. But it doesnt take a huge amount of imagination to think about aftersales service that would give bricks and mortar shops a competitive edge.

I will give you just a few examples

How about providing a voucher that will enable a purchaser to try the instrument in the shop which they pay for up front but if they then purchase gets taken off the purchase price ???

Or how about after purchase providing the customer a with technical/musical support /advice via email or telephone from its own knowledgeable staff ?

or how about arranging workshops for its customers to get the best from the product after purchase perhaps on days that business is slow ?

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#249400 - 02/09/09 10:43 AM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by spalding:
The Key to the survival of bricks and mortar stores is to add value which is the same principle for any business to survive in a price competitive environment. The internet based sellers are limited in the additional value they can add as they are driven by price. But it doesnt take a huge amount of imagination to think about aftersales service that would give bricks and mortar shops a competitive edge.

I will give you just a few examples

How about providing a voucher that will enable a purchaser to try the instrument in the shop which they pay for up front but if they then purchase gets taken off the purchase price ???

Or how about after purchase providing the customer a with technical/musical support /advice via email or telephone from its own knowledgeable staff ?

or how about arranging workshops for its customers to get the best from the product after purchase perhaps on days that business is slow ?


The voucher won't work. Besides Everytime I fire up the Tyros or especially the 900 in the store for a demo a crowd develops. I demoed one 900 to a person in December who bought it and all four people that stood around watching the demo came back in January and bought either it or the 700.

I offer FREE in store operating lessons because when someone comes in and I am answering questions and we are teaching each other again a crowd will develop and sales result.

Cannot do this with workstations. Regualr people don;t buy Motifs. They DO buy Arrangers. They do NEED support and DEMOS sell the product to more than the person asking for one. The fact that I know the board INSPIRES CONFIDANCE.

I Always demo the board playing MAry Had a Little Lamb over Cma7 Dm7 and back S I M P L E. Even a caveman can do it. THATS what sells the keyboard. Simplicity creates mega music. Every time I switch up styles I play the SAME THING. Then I bring in the harmony on a playback of tootracks Natural Woman because the harmonies are AUTOMATIC with the MIDI karaoke file.

Keeping it simple is what sells. Not playing NY state of Mind or ant complicated pieces. Playing what the customer can do right there right now whether or not they have ever played before.

There are far more inclined to buy from someone who KNOWS the instrument, someone who is showing off their chops making them feel they "can't do that." That kind of service and demo beats paying the tax every time. Yeah I can sell a Tyros for $3200. But why should I? I can sell two Samich guitars and make that kind of profit in 30 minutes. If I am going to spend an hour demoing a board then HOURS later after the sale. I will not cheapen the board buy discounting it 20% off MAP on the floor and make a couple cheap guitar sales in profits for the store.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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#249401 - 02/09/09 11:21 AM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
Kingfrog.....EXACTLY!

I love to go to a store like yours...and work WITH the people, demo, play around with ideas, teach each other stuff.

When I was buying elctronic organs back in the 70's --- 80's I went to the Lions store in Toledo Ohio where I lived. Lenny, Denny etc were super. (Denny Hinman later joined the Yamaha teem and traveled the world doing product demo/sales) They played for their own fun, demoed all the time and when I went in...no pressure to buy anything...AND YES a crowd would usually gather. During those years of the haydays of the organ...I bought a Conn Prelude, a Thomas Belair, Lawrence Welk, Trionon, and lastly a Celebrity Royale....I spent a dollar or 2 there for sure. They took trade-ins.

Of course there was no Internet...but all the reasons in your two posts above is WHY I bought anything...it was fun!
They had free into lessons on any instrument and anytime you showed up they would show you something musical or about a new model etc. No sales pressure at all.

No idiot saying 'Hey man, what can I get out of the warehouse for you today' crap!

Unfortuneatly today it is rare to find a place like that...sounds like you work for one! GREAT! Wish you were in Ft. Wayne, IN.
Frank and George ...same game.

Yes, here we have the giant Sweetwater Sound...there OK, BUT they do not offer what you described...no way no how!

So, It's not fun to go there like I remember when going to Lion's store a while ago...I miss it.

Unfortunatly, can't just pop in at your place, Farnks, or Georges.
So...I do without. Keep up the good work.
Lee
_________________________
Lee S.

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#249402 - 02/09/09 12:20 PM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14208
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog:
Regualr people don;t buy Motifs. They DO buy Arrangers.


But Motif's outsell arrangers (at least in a similar price range) what, 10-1? Perhaps not in your store, with such an arranger advocate demoing them, but that's about the figure in most stores, isn't it..?

Seems to be a shortage of 'regular' people...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#249403 - 02/09/09 06:58 PM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
But Motif's outsell arrangers (at least in a similar price range) what, 10-1? Perhaps not in your store, with such an arranger advocate demoing them, but that's about the figure in most stores, isn't it..?

Seems to be a shortage of 'regular' people...


Im sure they sell. We don;t sell them though. We tried and they took up floor space. Pro players and OMB around here buy Workstations but off the net. No OMB people use Arrangers, I sell to "regular" people meaning mostly retired player who may play for the Moose Lodge or retirement home. These guys have no use for a WS. They can be considered HOME users with an occasional "gig" Even my wife who can take the Tyros to her gigs or the PA2x would rather RECORD it and play the BG tracks taking 88 instead.

We had Motifs, Tritons and they sat for a year, Arrangers at $1600 sell far more. We turn about 4-5 s900's a month and other boards. The Tyros will sit for awhile. We have an MO6 and MO8 in a box. People who buy them already know what they want. No need to demo them. But maybe we will sell a couple a year. It's retirement and Snow Bird country as well as vacationers and they buy Arrangers,they want support, A few have Clavinovas in their northern homes and want the S900 for their Summer digs.I can say with confidence The avg age of the Arranger buyer is over 50. In fact I have never sold one to any 20 something. those guys buy the WS from MF or Sam Ash, Sweetwater or whomever.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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#249404 - 02/11/09 09:15 AM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
rsm2000e Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 21
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog:
snip



well taken point!

[This message has been edited by rsm2000e (edited 02-14-2009).]

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