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#249345 - 11/27/08 09:43 AM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
Well, interesting on the T3 piano question...was it a T3 recording or a Clavinova?

It better had been a T3...ot that's false advertising for sure.

No one can get the piano great sound on the DVD????
Even those with high end powered monitors?

Hmmmmmm...

Steve should be able to clear this up..AND be able to show how the T3 piano can be as good as the DVD.

In my recent audition of T3, I used headphones because the place was lousy with guitar banging going on! So, I didn't expect a great sound.
Lee
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Lee S.

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#249346 - 11/27/08 07:32 PM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
newman Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 42
Diki,
It would be great if there was some EQ trick, or something – I’m remaining hopeful but I have a niggling feeling that the problem may be with the "Concert Grand" sample itself.
The lower register sounds really great and the top also sounds sweet. It's the bit in the middle - the important bit - where it comes undone (in my opinion).

Dnj,
You are so right with the "try before you buy".
I so wanted to believe that the piano was (to quote the DVD) “so much better than the original Live Grand that was featured on Tyros 2” that I just put it down to the poor environment and speaker system used at the shop.

John,
me too, I've EQed this thing to Christmas and back but I still can't get it right, perhaps I'm too fussy.
I'm starting to think it's the sample Yamaha's used.
The "Live Grand" is very even across the notes but the Concert Grand has some variation in the mid range which would indicate to me that the sample has been averaged across notes and not sampled note by note, that’s my suspicion anyway.

Ian’
You may be right, to my ears however, the “Live Grand” seems to be the same sample as in the Tyros 2, but I think it’s the sound environment of the Tyros 3 that brings it forward more and thus the improvement in sound that is detected.
As far as the “go to “ piano, I agree with you, particularly when playing a quiet ballad using the “Concert Grand” as the solo piano voice, that situation really shows up the poor mid range of this sample, therefore the “Live Grand” looks like the I one to use there too.

bruno123,
“I do feel that given some time and effort the Tyros 3 will prove to be a good size step well worth the dollars”
John, I’m sure you’re correct, in fact the organ sounds alone tipped me over to the buy side as (in my opinion) the Tyros 3 has the most “Hammond-like” sounds I’ve yet heard on anything produced by Yamaha (how about Hammaha organ sounds hehehe), the vastly improved clarinet and “Breathy Sax” just helped clinch it.
I have to admit though, the thought of returning it did cross my mind after I heard the Concert not so Grand piano…


Lee,
The words used in the DVD stated;
“The Concert Grand is the “equivalent” of the piano “sound” used in the 400 series clavinova”.
It doesn’t say the “same sample” used in the 400 series Clavinova…
It doesn’t specify which 400 series 401, 409 etc. also which piano voice in the Clavinova it is the equivalent of.
So I guess there’s some wiggle room there, or I’m just being too pedantic.


As I said before, this forum is a great resource, thanks for your input everyone,

Chris.

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#249347 - 11/27/08 11:39 PM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14208
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by newman:
after all it sounded great on the DVD didn't it?


This is what I'm talking about... If it sounded great on the DVD, you CAN make it sound as good yourself.

For a start off, I'd make sure that the velocity sensitivity is quite high. Dynamic range is everything on these things, and using a medium or low setting is just going to force you into those brighter ranges too soon. Perhaps you should make an SMF of your own piano playing, and look at where the velocities tend to lie. If you are banging into 127 country a lot (or close), you are not getting the best out of the sound.

Those lightweight keybeds don't help, they take those with real piano technique and touch quite a bit to adjust to... Plus, to be honest, I wouldn't put it past Yamaha to use a wooden 88 to CONTROL the T3 to make that demo. Naturally, the best action to get a good piano sound on is a piano action!

But this is just conjecture... Steve D. can probably set us straight quite quickly.

But were I you, I would take off ALL compression and EQ, and make sure the piano sound is set to the highest dynamic range you can get, and THEN be careful about playing too hard. That, at least, ought to give you your best shot at making it sound warmer... and warmer by playing the lower velocity samples more, rather than warmer by EQ-ing the higher velocity samples duller, if you get my drift.
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#249348 - 11/28/08 05:02 AM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
newman Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 42
Diki,
"If it sounded great on the DVD, you CAN make it sound as good yourself"

Yes you're right, you should be able to do that.

I've listened to the part in question on that DVD and I think some of the answer is in the technique used i.e. lots of notes played, use of the great sounding lower register, basically lots of stuff going on.
The problem really shows up when a single note melody is played between F3 to E5, it's then that the true quality or lack there of becomes apparent in the mid range of this sample.
I’ve heard a CVP309 piano; I think the sample size was around 110mb needless to say it was a heck of a lot better than the T3 “Concert Grand”.

Thanks for your ideas; I’ll play around with your suggestions re. velocities etc. and I’ll remove any EQ and compression and try it all again to see what comes of it.
Thanks again,

Chris.

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#249349 - 11/28/08 05:16 AM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Wasn't it already mentioned at one point that the reason the Tyros 3 sounded so good in the demo vids was because that particular Tyros 3 was tweeked by the person doing the demo to their own preferences? Is it possible the person in the DVD has done the same...??

This can really be misleading to some people.. In my opinion I think any company made video/audio demos should be done(stock).., with the sounds as they are out of the box. Let the people hear what it really sounds like and not how the demoer likes it to sound. Unless the person doing the demo or DVD wants to scroll their edits across the screen they should use the factory sounds as they are.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-28-2008).]
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#249350 - 11/28/08 08:10 AM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
jwyvern Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 365
Hi Chris/newman
You may be right about the samples of Live Grand being the same. At any rate it looks the same as before - a 2 element voice, 1 panned hard left, the other hard right. But it certainly sounds significantly better on Ty3.

The Concert Grand shows 3 elements centred and each assigned its own velocity range.
Having gone around the houses with Master settings, I tried some edits on the voice itself using the PC editor to give a wider fuller sound, best heard when playing full KB 2-handed piano.

To try it you can download from here then do an Individual Load into the Custom Voice bank:
http://www.box.net/shared/eza66nsxya

I normally use Flat MasterEQ with Compressor set to MS02 and +4 gain but it is a good idea to try it as suggested with the Compressor off. Just turn master volume up about a quarter turn to compensate for loss of level.

John

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#249351 - 11/28/08 08:58 AM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
MusiCo Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/28/08
Posts: 10
Loc: Netherlands
Well I thougt it was about time for me to make my first post too ! I'll really try to discribe everything within it's context, as I find that some of you are shouting out your opinions on the T3 and it's everyones guess how your opinion was formed.

I've done some extensive research on the tyros 3 and have compared the "out-of-the-box" performances in a physical line up of the PA2X, Tyros2 and Tyros3 simultaneously over the same high-end monitoring system.
I think in comparing sounds it is import that you can compare them realtime instead at an interval of some days and over different speakersystems/eq settings.

I was looking for a new arranger keyboard to add to my studio setup. I was still using the PSR8000. The rest of my setup :
-Roland RD-100 EP
-KORG Triton
-Hammond XK-1
-Yamaha AW1600 HDD-recorder

In comparing these instruments I focussed mainly on the realism and freedom of expression of the acoustic sounds : drums, bass, guitar, wind.

First I focussed on the KORG.
The PA2X is a great instrument and has the most professional casing, but it just couldn't in any way compare in realism of the acoustic sounds. Synths and nifty functionality is another story, but I'll never part with my Triton, so that's why the PA2X didn't do it for ME.

Next I compared the T2 to the T3. Why pay double the money for a little upgrade, I stated.

I started with comparing the styles of the T2 and T3, as this was a nice way to get to now my way around the boards.
The T3 styles have been remastered and sound more natural, also when DSP's are turned off. I myself don't use standard styles other than for quickly experimenting with ideas, so i.m.o. the progress in the style department wouldn't be worth spending the extra money. The newly added styles on the T3 vs the T2 consist for the biggest part of "song-specific-styles" : styles which remind the broad public of a popular song. This makes them highly unusable for performances with any other song. I create my own styles. If not, I'd probably took another look at the PA2X at that moment or would stick with the better appliable, broader styles of my PSR8000.

Next....drumroll...the SOUND !
I really don't know how ANYONE can state that there's no noticeable difference in the sounds. Those people have to go and buy a hearing device instead of an arranger !
Again, I had the T2 and T3 back-to-back over the same soundsystem with the EQ's on the mixer all in neutral and compared lots of sounds. T3 sounds far,far better than T2, mainly due to the new super-high quality DSP's. Turn the DSP's off and it's a different story. If you are using external effectprocessors of superior quality, I can imagine the T2 sounding very close on the majority of the sounds.

Brings me to the SA2 sounds. It's just a handfull of sounds, of which the clarinet, trumpet and sax are the only ones worth noticing. I was very impressed by the natural and 'organic' feel of these sounds. This is almost an analog experience ! If you play the instruments within the range and in the way the real thing is played, it's very,very good. Even better than the demo's where the guys are playing too many notes too fast and far too continuously to make it convincing that you're hearing the real deal.
The both SA2 buttons were kind of a dissapointment ; they mostly perform perfectly the same glissando time and time again,using the PB wheel would sound more convincing in some occasions. The SA2 effects are not so new : they are just plain multi-layered (up to 40) samples. It's just that Yamaha have really thought about when to activate which layer, and I must say that they've done a great job in that. The few SA2 sounds will soon become the favorite turn-to leadsounds whenever you need a wind instrument.

Piano-sounds
If you like Bach and Brahms and aren't too much of a real pianist, they will do. As accompaniment or part of a style, they're fine.
But to my tast the piano's sound too much like a music-box. With the ModWheel you can "close the lid" and make the sound warmer and less bright, that already makes a huge difference. I personally don't like bright ear-piercing piano sounds, and I prefer the warm, damped and raw blues-piano sound of my RD-100 (which, besides the EP1 sound) is the only reason I hang on to it. The pianosounds of the T3 are no match for this old entry-level stagepiano. But I have to say : the competitors of the T3 also sound like toy-piano's. That might be to Japanese taste the way a piano should sound, but I think it lacks "rawness". My guess would be that they had to improve the piano sound and focussed on the classical concert piano, where the samples had to be a few steps below the Yammie EP-range, and next they overengineered the sound in the effectsdepartment.

Organ/flutes
Best sounding organsounds in a Yamaha to date, but boy am I glad I still have my Hammond XK1. The B3-ish organ sounds are truly overengineered and to me rather sound like a parody of a Hammond than a wannabe-Hammond. The thin, englisch and Klaus Wunderlich type of organ-sounds are fine.

Guitars :
Boy, do they sound great ! You can hear that the DSP's are derived from real E-guitar DSP's. Very convincing sounds, effects and expressiveness.
All the styles use the guitar-engine : regardless of the chord played, the notes are within the range and played in the sequence like you would on a real guitar. I haven't tried it, but I was ensured by a Yamaha representative that this also can be used in your own custom styles. For me this would be a much used functionality, so again lots of points on my personal realism-scale ! T2 doesn't offer this.

Synths/Pads :
derived from the Motif, which I tried a week before. I must say the out-of-the-box sounds are better from the T3. Synth sounds are very,very personal cause they do not refer to excisting instruments, so go and hear for yourself. The sounds are very useable, but it's no replacement for the in-depth en wicked stuff you can do with a real Synth. But Again, I'll use the Triton for that, so no reason for ME to walk away from the T3.

Vocals / Strings / Orchestral Ensemble :
I personally prefer the KORG sounds, which have more layered effects and can sound more impressive. On the T3 these sounds are less thin then on the T2, but there's still room for improvement left.

Drums & Bass :
WOW ! this is where I really got excited about the T3 and where it will prove to be a worthwile addition to my (studio)setup !
Drums and Bass sound very natural and really KICK ! Yamaha said goodbye to decades of offering only very thin Bass and Drum sounds. The tyros-speakers yamaha can provide can in NO WAY do justice to these sounds. This add's a great deal to the overall soundquality of any music produced on the T3.

Summary :
The Tyros range has the reputation of being a "wedding & one man band" keyboard. The demo's Yamaha have been giving world wide are trajected on to that usergroup, which I think is a shame. Although they're now selling 100 T3's daily....I think it could have easily been more.

Price :
It's expensive and I'm paying for al kinds of stuff I don't need, but to me it's worth it for fullfilling MY PERSONAL needs within MY PERSONAL budget.
We can expect expansionpacks with new SA2 Voices and Styles, but this will add to the total price. I'm sure I'm gonna be using it a lot over the coming 5 years or so.

It's a matter of doing your homework and finally calculating the pro's and con's and making the right descision for your personal situation.

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#249352 - 11/28/08 09:35 AM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Quote:
Originally posted by MusiCo:
Drums & Bass :
WOW ! this is where I really got excited about the T3 and where it will prove to be a worthwhile addition to my (studio)setup !
Drums and Bass sound very natural and really KICK ! Yamaha said goodbye to decades of offering only very thin Bass and Drum sounds. The tyros-speakers yamaha can provide can in NO WAY do justice to these sounds. This add's a great deal to the overall soundquality of any music produced on the T3.



Welcome to SZ......Great review also I might add....this statement above regarding the drums & bass is where most of the friction between arranger players have confrontational differences through the years...although I have yet to find a T3 anywhere around here to play yet I am always reading reviews and considering players thoughts on the unit as I am always open to new things. I know what I need for my needs and will go for it with reckless abandon to suit my style of playing on stage as a pro performer. As most know I have owned T1, T2, and I think every TOTL Psr model every made also, besides the other manufacturers Units as well. More good HONEST reviews like yours are very needed. I hope you'll participate in discussions here often we have a great group of knowledgeable helpful people here on SZ.

Happy Holidays!

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#249353 - 11/28/08 06:38 PM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
newman Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 42
squeak_D,
If the DVD used a "tweaked" machine then you're right it is a bit deceptive.

I've come to the conclusion however that it has a lot to do with the style of playing.

I had a friend of mine play the piano sound as I listened on and it sounded really good UNTIL... he played a single note melody in the upper two thirds of the keyboard. In this area the Concert Grand sounded really bad, we both agreed it was poor. It sounds good if making lots of noise with two handed piano-player-style with lots of base notes (which sound great), but for a solo piano voice on its own with a light backing style, it is poor - the comment was made Casio-like and I'd have to agree.


John/jwyvern,
Thanks for the download, it is an improvement and thanks to you, I think I’ve also discovered that my speakers maybe back to front - lower notes play on the RH speaker and high notes play on the left. Thanks for your effort it is appreciated.

Working with your custom piano it is a little brighter/cleaner which I like, but I think we're at the point of trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, so for me I guess it's back to the T3's "Live Grand" for me, so in effect it's still the same basic sample as on the original Tyros 1’s “Live Grand”.


MusiCo,
Great post, you've done what I should have done, doing your homework so thoroughly.
I basically trusted Yamaha to deliver what they promised but I suppose for the most part (sans the piano), they have.

Interesting, your evaluation of piano voices on other keyboards as toy pianos.... hmmm... a dilemma if one really wants a decent sounding solo piano voice - I guess one would have to look to other sources for a well sampled sound.

The best piano sound I’ve ever heard (to my ears) that has stuck in my memory, was from a Roland digital piano (can’t remember the model) from a few years ago, nothing’s come close to it so far.
I used to have a couple of good sampled pianos with my Ensoniq that were way better in the midrange than this so called “Concert Grand”.
To me, the vocals are still ordinary with the Tyros 3 and one shouldn’t have to go and buy COSTUM voices (typo intended) to make up for a lacking top of the line keyboard.
But I suppose there’s profit to be had isn’t there.

You're right about the drums etc. I hadn't really paid much attention to them because of my fixation with the piano voice, but I'd have to agree they are definitely more present. Reminds me of the CVP109 I had. When I received my first Tyros 1 the first thing I noticed was the loss of impact of the bass/drums. The T3 has finally brought them back on stage.

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#249354 - 11/28/08 07:33 PM Re: Again with the Tyros 3
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14208
Loc: NW Florida
I'm not sure why everybody gets so worked up about the demos sounding a bit different to the OOTB sound...

Surely it's a piece of cake to rip the DVD, demo, whatever, import it to the HD of the T3, and play it through exactly the same speakers, D/A converters, etc..? Then all you need to do is tweak the T3's settings until they match.

What's so hard about this?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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