I was going to post this on Donny’s “Demo 1993...have things really changed that much on arrangers?..” thread, but I’m too lazy to change screens.

Demo’s! I have yet to hear a demo by anyone on any keyboard ever made by the “big 3” that affected me enough to want to go out and buy it. Ketron demo’s come close.

Doesn’t anyone know how to take a standard song like “Manhattan” or “In the Mood” and play it to sound like a small trio…with each instrumentalist taking a “ride?” Like all I ever hear is your standard “sax run” (my least favorite instrument) that seems to get recycled over and over again. I have never heard...sorry, that’s NEVER heard, anyone take an arranger keyboard and playing it to it’s fullest potential. That means doing a trumpet solo on the Saints, violin on Are You Lonesome Tonight, vibes on a Caribbean number, trombones for 40’s Big Band, etc. Not to mention how often do you hear a demo player forgetting to tap the “fills” button at least maybe once per song?

What I DO hear is players who sit and play a song as written, using chords that were written, and usually the playing is just a backdrop for the vocal. There was a day when OMB’s played more than they sang. I know….I used to go watch them regularly back in the 70’s.

I’m having a heck of a time finding the top end arrangers to try out. Plenty of Korg’s and Tyros 2’s, but no G-70’s Version 3, no E-series, no GW-8’s, no Tyros V3, and definitely no Ketrons within 100 square miles! I did manage to find a GW-8 locally, but, as usual, the salesman didn’t know how to work it and I wasted hours of my time. Plus they ran it through a small monitor speaker. I wouldn’t do that to a Casio even!

Someone did a thread recently about how arrangers and arranger players could end up in that great dustbin in the sky or something like that. I’ve been thinking a lot about how we could all end up with nothing on our plates if the big 3 keyboard manufacturers go the way of the big 3 automakers. Not probable with Yamaha’s stature and presence, but…….It COULD happen! Might be a good time to stock up on arranger’s!

Gunnar Johnny did a great synopsis of the Tyros sound that I found to be right on the money!

He wrote: “I find the sound too clean, cold and polished, and styles is a kind of too perfect. It doesn't sound "human" in my ears. Start the style and it sounds the same level whatever style I hear,a kind of limited in peak. If I did not feel it that way, I would probably have been a Tyros owner a long time ago...…”
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/018438.html

Me: The Yammie sound was never quite right for me, but I couldn’t figure out WHY? Now I know why, thanks to GJ.

I remember there was a bit of controversy about someone’s demo recording not sounding good. If someone does a recording and the general opinion is it’s not up to snuff, should he be told? Should we be candid? Wouldn’t we do the person a favor by telling that person they could have done it better? Or should we do what the government does to all of us, which is to lower the bar to manipulate us into thinking how intelligent we are (in this case, how “musical” we are). Should we also “lower the bar” out of politeness to our peers and all become Stepford Wives and smile and nod our heads in delight and submit the person’s name for an appearance on Letterman? Is that being supportive? More like being politically correct!

When I first started singing many years ago, I was awful...just plain awful. I will never forget that night at the restaurant when the patron asked how much I made per hour. I replied $20. He replied with “here’s $20, don’t sing for the next hour!” Then there was the person who said: you’re playing is fine, but...DON’T SING! Hurtful at the time, but in retrospect, I have to thank them and many others who made similar comments. If not for they’re honesty, I’d be a 2nd rate vocalist today. Today, I’m a fine singer, but I often think about where I’d be if those brutally honest comments weren’t thrown at me.

I spent the whole month of October playing Oktoberfests (on the accordion), Halloween parties (as a DJ), and senior care venues as a OMB or pianist. The Halloween parties were great working with the kids, the senior places were gratifying as usual, but the Oktoberfests reminded me of why I became a OMB early on. The other guys in the band weren’t there to entertain. They were there to either eat and drink, socialize, or just make some pocket money. The trumpet player would throw two fingers up, and proceed into the Key of F, played “lead” while I was singing, and changed songs when he couldn’t play what I threw in front of him. The drummer brings a skeleton set of drums that he could fit in a backpack (and he did!) Halfway through the event he says to me: “Hey...they’re taking the food away. I want to eat!“ Me says: “I’m going back to being a soloist.”

Good thing I didn’t tag this on to Donny’s thread or he’d be charging me rent by now.

There’s nothing in the Synthzone rules that says all posts have to be about the “keyboard of the week.” Sometimes I just need to get stuff out of me. Anyone else have any intrnal thoughts?

Lucky

Really Great Post - I'm just a hobbiest but hear you loud & clear.

I'm going to go to the lobby now & Get some Pop Corn, candy & soft drink to watch the show. Please excuse my insane sense of humor.

Jerry

OK, lucky
you forced me to reply....
I found your post so interesting and easy to read, because you have an ease of writing which is rare among the music fraternity, and so I just wanted to know who you were, and a little more about you.
so I looked at your profile...what a waste of time.....!
I only wish that more of us would take the time to tell us at least the simplest of facts about ourselves, like
Homepage (if you have one)
Occupation (if you have one)
Location (if you have one)
Interest (if you have any other ones)

and as for "ICQ"...what on earth is that and who in this world is interested in that anyway?
Do some of you not have a first name? as well as a pseudonym.?
cheers

------------------
Eddie from Rotherham
Skype:eddiefromrotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info

PSR9000

For inquiriing minds.

ICQ, A multilingual community! Download ICQ: meet friends, chat by text, voice or video, send free SMS, play games or find a date!

Jerry, great post. I do use the arranger as you described. I strive to sound like a live combo. Ketron and Roland come closest to achieving this FOR ME.
I'll try to post some newer songs soon.
DonM

Interesting post Lucky. Keep in mind, however, that 100-square miles is just 10 miles by 10 miles, which in my part of the world is like walking around the corner. I've driven four hours each way to hear sound systems, and three hours each way to try out various keyboards. To me, it's that important.

I don't put a lot of stock in demos. It's what I hear first hand from the keyboard that counts to me, and hopefully my audiences. Downloaded demos, IMO, rarely reflect the actual sounds of the keyboard, especially when used during live performances. But, what the hell do I know? I can't be too bright--I've had the same keyboard for four years.

Gary

Lucky,

A refreshing post, for sure!

As far as the Yammy styles go, I feel the same way. How can you try to be authentic sounding like a Trio or Quartet when the keyboard styles have tamborines, strings, two guitars, congas, claves, and a tinkling piano here and there?

Shouldn't the styles be bare bones with Bass, Drums, and maybe some guitar or organ filler. I find the Yammy styles to busy and unnatural. To that response, Yamaha came out with the T3 with sliders to make it easier to turn down the volume of style parts. But made it inconvenient as you must also press a few buttons, before you can use the sliders to do this!!!

I don't quite think Yammy get's it (at times)

Al

I remember there was a bit of controversy about someone’s demo recording not sounding good. If someone does a recording and the general opinion is it’s not up to snuff, should he be told? Should we be candid? Wouldn’t we do the person a favor by telling that person they could have done it better?

The only criticism that matters is that from those who pay for your work whether live or recorded and that criticism is like fertilizer it may stink but it helps the plant grow.

Criticism from peers and professional "critics" is nice but its clouded with ego and competition and should not be taken very seriously whether good or bad. I learned that along time ago working in a situation where both were routinely dished out. You cannot savor the good and discard the bad or vice versa. You have to just accept them as pure opinion from an individual with personal bias.

Money talks. If you get a lot of gigs selling CDs and earning a living nothing anyone says here in a negative or positive light will mean much. If you are not and have a specific problem it will be heard and agreed to by all and yes people will have different solutions based o their work flow and formal or informal musical background and/or recording experience and gear knowledge.In the end its all opinion...but you are selling YOUR opinion in the end.

The bottom line is the tools are available out there to make a GREAT sounding recording to the Average Joe for $2000....yep You don't need $2000 Pre Amps,$2000 mikes,$2000 interfaces....A Korg,Roland or Yamah Arranger will go along way to give you a great start out of the blocks.

If the style doesn't do what you want it to do, change it, Lucky...

If there are too many parts, mute them. If the dynamics are squashed, turn off the compressors. Turn up the drums, turn up the bass. Force yourself to compete with them (like you would a real drummer!). If they aren't good enough drums, import some samples (if you have Korg or Yamaha or Ketron, etc).

Push comes to shove, if all I've got in my hands is a Yamaha, I figure I can probably beat it into shape... Maybe not the same shape as my Roland, but I can make it work for me (I even push bass and drums on my G70 compared to factory settings, and turn off all the compression... it's a disease, all this smashed up sound we are getting used to ).

But you are right, 90% of it all comes from playing it. Everyone has heard genius on a Casio, and rubbish on a T2, etc.. It's not the gear, until you are already playing at the highest level.

It's ALL you...

I've seen formidably mediocre players hold their audience spellbound, and technically proficient musicians turn an audience off completely...so it's not always musical technique that is working, but just how effective the player is at connecting.

Ian

For which the arranger has no impact at all. Again, a good communicator on a Casio beats a dud on a T3 (even if he's a decent musician).

So that's TWO strikes against the arranger being the most important part of the equation

Kinda puts it all in perspective, doesn't it?

It's all about effective communicating, whether your on a B3 or a Stylophone.

The arranger is another type of tool used to transmit...nothing more.

Ian

Of course...using cheap or poor quality tools usually isn't a good idea...there is a point of diminishing returns.

Technically proficient people display that in all they do. Its like a singer who uses vocal calisthenics constantly "OK we get it" Now sing something fomr the inside out

Technicians are the least creative players i have run across. I played in a professional show where there were TWO keyboard players. I had charts for a 7 piece band. The one keyboard player was a technician but her playing had no soul, no heart. The other could not read the charts but after a time his playing was amazing. Guitar players are a great example. Some can rip through patterned scales. Others make the note sing by what's BETWEEN them.

Sometimes in a rare occasion you get both. Out of 25 or 30 keyboard players I worked with in theaters and showrooms in 12 years all over and from AC to Las Vegas to Branson and internationally, only TWO I can remember had both. Heart,soul and major technical and reading skills.

Teacnical players are great for Neiman Marcus, Orchestras, Hotel Lobbys, and restaurants. But not as entertainers in OMB situations that require more than just playing "as written" with prowess and no heart.

Good post! When it comes to demos..., that's all some of us have to rely on. It would be great to find a GC, Sam Ash, or any good music store that has a great keyboard stock, but sadly for some of us that journey would require hours of traveling.

I remember when I felt so fortunate to find a PSR-3000 and 1500 at a music store here in West Virginia. It was by chance (I was already in town).., but that store was over 3 hours away from my home.., and these PSR's were really the ONLY keyboards that the owner had in stock. Not one upper end pro keyboard in that store (arranger or workstation).

I don't let a keyboard demo completey influence my decision to buy any keyboard. When I listen to keyboard demos..., I'm listening to the "core sound". Honestly, I could care less about the playing skill of the person who did the demo. I listen for the raw core sound of the instruments used and pay close attention to details within the sound such as velocity switching, any un-natural sounding nuances, ect. It's obvious some players can take a really great patch and completely destroy it in a demo.., BUT regardless of how bad their playing is you can at least hear the sound (and its potential) even in the hands of a less skilled player.

I totally agree with the issue of Yammies styles in regards to the Tyros. However, I have that issue with all Yamaha arrangers. Yamaha IMO does an amazing job at arranging these styles (core construction).., but I agree that they seriously lack that "human feel". At times they can feel and sound very robotic. Some here like that though. IMO there's nothing that kills a style more than one that has been "quantized" to death.

I also agree that in some cases (not stooping to being cruel with the responses), but HONEST opinions of another's work could be very beneficial. Too often it seems that a persons "feelings" are always kept in mind when demos get critiqued. Some are also poor sports too. If you post a demo you have to expect that other's may or may not like it. I think people need to be more honest about their opinions of demos..., and not worry about sparing the feelings of the poster. If he or she is confident in their work.., and truely willing to "continue learning".., as WE ALL should be doing.., then negative opinions of a demo should be used in a way to better ourselves and our playing.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-18-2008).]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVV31_z6VWQ

Midjay Plus/Roland