I find Ketron's tactics with the release of Audya very curious and out of character for a KB manufacturer. They're release model seems very out of character for a KB company.

Taking the Audya on the Roadshows and industry conferences and demoing it for consumers is almost like probing and market research. As far as I know they have established at least 3 or 4 release dates that have come and gone.

Do you think they really ran into technicial difficulties with the core design of the product or do you think they were doing a proof-of-concept with the general public or a combination of both???

Is the Audya THAT revolutionary?

------------------
Al Giordano
Visit us at ARRANGER WORLD! http://www.arrangerworld.com

Korg Pa2xpro, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland TD-12 Vdrums, Roland SPD-S.

I think it's a combo of both. I think they're having technical issues, but also played the marketing game here. The possible price was leaked too. They're probably trying to get an idea of what people would be willing to pay for one.

I don't see how it's going to be so "revolutionary" though. Unless they've built the OS around Linux or Windows and add features like you'd find on a Neko or MS.., I don't think it will be ground-breaking.

Be patient its coming

This is what AJ posted the last time the Audya issue came out:

LIVE AUDIO LOOPS EXPLAINED FURTHER.

2 Drum tracks (Drum 1= Midi, Drum 2 = Audio).
1 Bass track (Audio/Midi depending on style).
4 Arranger Chord parts (Midi).
1 Arranger Chord part (Audio/Live).
2 Chord parts - instant/lower (midi).

STYLES WITH AUDIO LOOPS.
* Use all tracks (especially the AUDIO tracks).
* Recorded as 3 styles (e.g Ballad Slow (0-30%), Ballad Med (30-60%), Ballad Fast (60-100%) [where % marks tempo] so there are actually 3 'styles' per style depending on tempo selected! This eliminates Audio disruption when tempo is stretched beyond limit of the 'styles'.
* User can create their own AUDIO styles, but yes, extra work is needed ONLY on audio tracks if user decides to use audio.
* Extensive Editing available on non audio tracks.
* Limited editing available on Audio tracks (as you can expect).

STYLES WITHOUT AUDIO LOOPS
* Use all NON AUDIO tracks (Drum1, Bass, Chord 1-4).
* Recorded as 1 style (e.g Salsa) with midi tempo variation (as present).
* You can create all parts from scratch.
* Permits you to load previous Ketron styles (that don't use Audio loops).
* Permits you to edit ALL tracks extensively.

STYLE CONVERSIONS.
* Applicable? Yes, since MIDI tracks on styles still exists.
* Converting from other manufacturer to KETRON? Yes via external software (e.g EMC).
* Converting from KETRON to other manufacturer - yes, but you'll loose/miss the audio tracks.
* 3rd party styles usable? Yes. You can simply inco-orporate whichever loop into 3rd party style (if time signatures match) once loaded into AUDYA.

* Recording your won loops? Possible. Using these with styles (factory or user)? Possible ... after some extra work editing the loop(s).

Hope I answered most questions (especially those in doubt).

Thanks,

AJ

So, what does this mean? I think that the most significant part is the first one:

2 Drum tracks (Drum 1= Midi, Drum 2 = Audio).
1 Bass track (Audio/Midi depending on style).
4 Arranger Chord parts (Midi).
1 Arranger Chord part (Audio/Live).
2 Chord parts - instant/lower (midi).

To me this means that, after experimenting all these months, the software designers at Ketron have given up the idea of creating an arranger totally based on audio loops and opted for a more conventional approach, one they have already a lot of experience with.

In other words:
1- the Audya will have a midi drum track coupled with an audio one, just like the SD1, the SD5, the Midjay, etc; hopefully the drums will be of studio quality, just like the other sounds.
2- the other rhythm tracks (bass, guitar, piano...) will be either audio or midi, depending on the style chosen. My guess is that styles that require complex chords (like the Jazz-Swing ones) will be based on midi loops that will respond in real time to every kind of chord played (they will also probably improve the chord recognition), while simpler styles will have the choice between midi and audio parts.
Example: a style like a Rock&Roll is usually played only with majors and sevenths, so they will no doubt include one or more styles based on an audio guitar riff (a la Chuck Berry) recorded in all the tonalities but with only major and seventh chords. If someone fancies to experiment and see what happens playing a minor or a diminished chord, he/she will have the option of the same (or a different) R&R style, but with a midi guitar loop. And the same goes for the other parts, like bass, piano (think of a boogie woogie style with audio loops) and so on.
Of course the Audya will be able to play all the old Ketron styles, but with the benefit of the new sounds, of much better quality.

Well, this is my take on the subject...

I still haven't heard from Ketron, here, about how many different chord TYPES will be recognized by the audio loop section.

Major minor and seventh? Maj min, 7th and dim? Maj, maj7th, min, min(maj7th), dim, half dim? Maj, min, maj6, min6, min7b5, aug, maj(7b10), and so on and so forth...

It's this aspect, more than anything else, that gives me pause about this kind of feature. Especially when MIDI based guitar modes are starting to get MUCH better, and have no chord limitations...

Dreamer, Diki,

That was my understanding as well; that the Audio loops would be chord triggered and time stretched in the style. If that were the case, then it would surely have been a great innovation, but if they are backing off of that technique; then what could be holding back release and more importantly pushing up the price?

------------------
Al Giordano
Visit us at ARRANGER WORLD! http://www.arrangerworld.com

Korg Pa2xpro, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland TD-12 Vdrums, Roland SPD-S.

Al,
it could be that after spending many months trying to get the audio loops work flawlessly they are now realizing that they have limitations or just don't work like they were hoping, so have redefined their goals and are now redesigning the keyboard with new styles, midi-based.
Anyway, if Ketron can come up with a keyboard like the SD1 or the SD5, but with sounds of studio quality, I am still interested.

Yeah, and if the price includes an invitation to Italy for a workshop or "in depth seminar" to
learn the Ketron OS well, I think I'll order too.
I would probably need some years, have to learn Italian as well as try out wine and pizza while
I'm there.

Cheers
GJ

Gunnar,
let's talk about it; I am thinking to come and see those fjords one of these days...

My questions are this: If they were/are planning on having real audio-loops that utilize chord recog. and are time stretched.., then applying that into a style format, how much RAM were they planning on putting in this puppy?

Are these audio loops going to be perm. in ROM, or will they be streamed from a HD? I would imagine using real audio loops in the mannor they want.., along with other features within real-time playing would eat the crap out of a boards CPU. Perhaps they realized they're going to need a little more horsepower than they initially thought, which then increases production costs, and requires another look at the software/hardware configurations. Of course a cost that would also be passed to the consumer as well.

Wouldn't it be nice fellas to have these closed arrangers running 2 gigs of ram and more... Unless they already are and I missed the memo.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 10-28-2008).]

I'm sorry, but I tend to look at the world of computer software first to see if a computer based arranger is going to be able to work.

AFAIK, there isn't even a single piece of software out there that can do realtime chord recognition of a wide choice of chord types, with a wide range of tempo selection, and a vast selection of different picking and strumming types. And that is with the benefit of sample streaming, etc., that is easy to do on a computer...

Everything I've tried or read about is limited in it's selection of chords it can recognize. Everything is limited in when you can change those chords (mid-strum, for instance). Everything is limited in how quickly it can load up an entire new set of samples. Not that that matters in the studio, but on a gig?

So, I'm sorry, but if you can't find an arranger technique in software, with vastly more powerful computers and HD I/O capabilities (SA has been around for quite a while with GIGA triggers, etc.), you are not going to find it in a more limited hardware arranger.

At least not in a form that will satisfy the experienced player. One Finger Chord player types, with their vastly smaller chord selection choices, may not notice the limitations. But anyone that knows what a 7b10 is will...

Sorry, but I don't see this as a viable technique for another two or three generation of imbedded arranger CPU's, and we haven't even STARTED to address the complexity and cost of putting these types of libraries together with any decent amount of chord choice. Every single style would need hundreds and hundreds of perfectly recorded loops to be as flexible as a CURRENT arranger like T3 or PA2X, with their sophisticated guitar voicing algorithms.

Those are not cheap to produce, my friends. Current guitar strumming VSTi's run into hundreds of dollars, and that is for only a few chord type choices and not that many different styles.

Ah, well, it was nice to dream, wasn't it?

We don't know yet what this ketron will be able to do, so lets just wait and see. Hopefully we won't put Ketron on the T3 bashing list.

My biggest concern at this point is the price, Ketron has alway made top end keyboards with outstanding styles and sounds.

Audya may be one of the best arrangers made or a $5000 +/- upgrade to SD5.

Time will tell.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 10-28-2008).]

Yes! Time will tell. But I hope the Audia can come close to the T3 And it will have the most inportand of all....76 keys.. have no experians of Ketron...have a T2 and a PA2X
like both.. use them in my gigs. But I hope to
use only one (Audia) see what it can do. Plays only live with styles together with a drummer and a bas-player muting the drum and bas parts. Have allso a Motif XS 7 but are gona sell it. Havent been able to integrate it to the rigg.
Sorry for the poor spelling. Swedisch

Tryggve

Diki,
Have you tried the latest live-styler SW arranger?
It's version 10 +.
It now even has direct interface facility to Ketron SD-2.
It plays Yamaha styles including ones with Mega voices (by substituting them).

Pretty impressive for sure. that ONE guy...not a big company did this much...

Lee

[This message has been edited by leeboy (edited 10-28-2008).]

Lee, that's not a player of live audio loops, though, is it?

I see this type of things perhaps an indication I might be on the right track, here... a software version of a MIDI arranger.

The main thing is, hardly any of the computer guitar loop players are designed to be used live. They have all kinds of glitch problems trying to keep up with live input of the chords. But that doesn't really matter, when you can clean up the control track, or when the computer can see the chords coming (by reading ahead) and get itself ready.

Live, there is NONE of that possible. It MUST respond instantly, it must respond accurately, it must respond without glitches. How Ketron are going to pull this off, when software with far greater horsepower can't, is beyond me.

And STILL no word from the Ketron guys about the number of chord choice TYPES... AJ jumped in pretty quickly with the initial info, but this seems to be harder to elicit. And it is by FAR the most important stat, IMO...

Diki,
Yes, I see your point more clearly now...No LS does not use audio loops for style play.

But LS is a superb SW arranger and keeps getting better. Uses VSTI's etc. Now supprts direct use of Roland, Yamaha, Wersi, and Ketron styles!

The truth is all these current HW arranger mfg's could build a machine based on SW arranger funtions...but they will not unless the competition forces them too...so they can keep making tons of $$$ on the HW.

Some day it may shift...then they will make tons of $$$ on the SW versions for the arranger that runs them.

Actually the current arrangers all run on firmware which is really a SW arranger...it just isn't PC based.

An OS upgrade is nothing more than a new SW arranger load that runs only on their proprietary HW!!!

Lee

My primary issue with software arrangers, especially those that use VSTi's, is the issue of having enough horsepower and HD I/O when running at latencies that are in the hardware range.

My G70 feels exceptionally crisp and immediate. It can stack five stereo voices up on top of each other, and play very fast repeated chords without a trace of flamming. I honestly feel like it is down in the 1-1.5ms total latency area (I use VSTi's a lot, so I'm pretty used to dickin' with various latency settings).

Now, I'm sorry, but I have yet to see a computer music system capable of staying reliable at those kinds of latencies, trying to generate 128 voices or more in realtime, while at the same time, generating automatic accompaniment in crisp response to live input. Especially when you start to use the better, more complex VSTi's available, nowadays.

The door on a hardware arranger is always pegged at the polyphony maximum, at exactly the same latency as the slightest use of it. But software latencies and capabilities are dynamic. The heftier the VSTi, the lower the voice count, or the higher the latency. And this changes all the time! Some songs won't tax it, some VSTi's won't tax it, some will. But you won't know you've hit the wall until it comes crashing down,

That is something a live performer cannot accept. At least, not this one...

Diki,
Yes...very true...PC's get stonger every few monthes...so it will be better as time goes on...

I use LS with sound modules mstly..so all I do is MIDI oriented..works very fast and very reliable.
Lee

I'm going out a limb here and predict that Ketron WILL get it right. They have been working on it too long, and have not shipped it yet because they DO want to get it right.
If it incorporates the features of Midjay and SD5, then it will be hard to beat. The audio style loop thing will be icing on the cake, to whatever extent it is developed.
DonM

I'm not sure I have your faith. Any time a 'soon to be released' product gets delayed for a couple of years, you can be sure that more than just minor fixes are necessary...

And, WITHOUT that 'live loop' technology working up to our fevered expectations, it SURE ain't going to be worth that $5000+ price tag they are floating

Like I said, the deafening silence about the choices of chords available in 'live loop' mode is very telling, IMO.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-28-2008).]

Diki,

Couldn't you use Live Styler on the Mediastation or other Software based keyboards and have the best of both worlds? This sounds very promising to me.

Has anyone tried this combination?

Al

Live styler is full working on MS, but I don't like at all the interface: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/images/2008/MS/livestyler.png
also is a standalone version that we can not control under the MS hardware interface, keys, sliders..

And, I don't get the point. Doesn't the MS already play Yamaha styles? And is already a full function arranger? And can host VSTi's etc.?

Dom, how does the MS deal with the 'floating' CPU requirements, depending on how intensive the VSTi's you use (and how hard you use them)?

Can you set a preset limit for polyphony, and how does it deal with notes over the limit, etc.? Does latency remain fixed, and polyphony change due to CPU load, or does it balance a heavier VSTi with a higher latency?

A little more information on AUDYA.

Chord recognition: Audya will be able to recognize all chords currently recognized within the current Ketron line up (e.g SD1Pus, SD5, ...) - including Rootless Chord recognition.

STYLES in general will be a mixture of both Midi and Audio. In some cases, more Audio (Drum 2, Chord, Bass) than others ... depending on the style. The reason we are still holding onto midi is to allow backward compatibility with previous Ketron styles (e.g. from Midijay), otherwise current Ketron customers will NOT be able to use 'older' styles in this product. Ofcoure using AUDIO in styles for live play is the revolution we are trying to create, so all out AUDIO styles will also be included, but due to the AUDIO, these styles will not be compatible with any other machine.

DESIGN: The project is still on and currently in QA. We want to make sure we release a product as complicated as AUDYA with a OS as stable as a rock. It should be out before Namm 2009.

Great news A.J.! I knew this but didn't want to mention it, because of the missed dates in the past. Sure hope this one holds up!
DonM

Aj...great news!!!

Hope you can get the AUDYA to the Louisiana Jam January 18,19,20,21, it would be the Star of the show for sure! cant wait

See you there!

Sorry, but AJ, this does NOT answer the question...

The Audya may be able to RECOGNIZE all the different types of chords, but how many will the audio loops of guitar playing (or any other chordal instrument) be able to PLAY..?

Sure, the MIDI section will be just as comprehensive as it used to be (one would expect no less), but the audio loops are still incapable of making a Caug(b9) out of a Cmaj. Either there is a recording of these other chords, or there isn't. If there isn't, it won't matter if the Audya can recognize YOUR input. It will matter if it can't PLAY it

So, last time... how many different chord TYPES and extensions will be in the audio LOOP section? Will all the loop styles have the same choices, or will some styles have more than others (which will make remembering harder!)..?

Just a nice, clear, straightforward answer, please.

And which NAMM? Summer or winter?

...oops, Diki already asked the same question



[This message has been edited by miden (edited 11-02-2008).]

Diki

Let me try answering your question in a format you'll understand better (based on the thread above).

The AUDYA will be able to play back all chord types currently played back by the current Ketron line up (e.g SD5), regardless of style selected which means, yes including the audio loops associated with the styles. Unfortunately, I can't disclose on a forum how we do this.

Winter Namm 2009 in Anaheim CA/USA is what I was refering to.

Hope this answered your questions.

Thanks,

AJ

[This message has been edited by Ketron_AJ (edited 11-04-2008).]

LOL.... well, thanks AJ.

That clears it up PERFECTLY

I guess the extra YEAR to production was so that all those dozens upon dozens of different chord variations and extensions the SD-5 can recognize could be recorded for each and every style... (in three different tempos, for all twelve keys)

From your very guarded statement, somehow, I doubt it...

I doubt that Ketron will be the failure that some of you hope or predict. Every board that they have release was always better then the last one, with noticeable differences. I’m glad that they have decided to hold the board to further test then releasing it. I would prefer that they be the Ginny pigs than the customer.

There is always option number 1, don’t buy it if you don’t like it. Well my Mom told also how you know that you don’t like it if you haven’t tried it…………


[This message has been edited by mc (edited 11-04-2008).]

Or option #2, believe all the hype, and buy it sight unseen (because there won't be one in a store anywhere near you)...

Guess which of the two options leaves you more likely to be disappointed?

Wish MY Mom would buy one for me to try, though! Just in case I liked it

Well there is FrankieV place in Conn, which is only 1 hour drive from me, so don't worry I'll get my hands on one and try it before I bash it.

Besides stick with your G70 its better anyway. Ketron will never live up to your standards since your pianist that you are.

I live in the Panhandle of Florida. A few more miles away from Frankie V's than you, sadly. As are probably the majority of US players.

Look, there's hype, then there's reality. When this product was first announced, it was going to have multiple audio loop tracks. We were all astounded. This is going to change EVERYTHING...

Fast forward from March 2007 (when it was first announced)... Only ONE non-drum loop part, and obviously, some hybrid tricks to coax more chords out of the loop parts than were originally recorded. Not exactly what we were hyped into thinking we would get. And the price continues to climb, every time it is mentioned.

All I've been asking for is straightforward answers about legitimate concerns, garnered from years of working with loops in a computer environment. And still no straightforward answers. I don't want the product to fail. Far from it. I want the product to be what was initially announced.

Time will tell how successful (and how expensive) this arranger will be. And, since they are going with a 76 and a grand piano sound that they claim is amazing (and the audio demos bore it out to a degree), this will definitely be on my 'check it out' list. OTOH, since you apparently don't consider this important, I guess you'll be giving it a pass?

I've been anxiously awaiting the arrival of the "Audya" but am growing weary of the delays. I'm afraid the price of the keyboard is going to be too much for me.

I'm into recording with DigiDesign's Pro Tools. There is currently a plug in from Celemony http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=products_plugin
That you should check out. It's a technology that allows you to adjust the pitch and timing of audio tracks. In it's current version it can handle single monophonic recorded melody lines. If you go to the Celemony website, you can view a demo of the application. Celemony announced an upcoming upgrade of the application that would allow adjustment of pitch and time polyphonically. In other words, you can adjust/alter pitches of notes individually within, for example, a guitar chord. This upgrade was to be released this October 2008. October came and went and now the projected release date is for March or April of 2009. I suspect that Keytron is using this technology to make the Audya work as planned. A delay at Celemony means a delay in the release of the Audya. What do you think? Does this sound reasonable?

This is simply food for discussion.

No, I think I can pretty much guarantee that this is nothing to do with the Audya delay.

The Melodyne2 process is NOT a realtime function. It takes time to analyze the file, and then it takes time to process the file. On even the fastest current computers, Melodyne's own demo shows it takes several seconds to process a very short file. So this rules it out for current arranger operation, where the CPU has got to do a whole bunch of other things, all at the same time... (and couldn't do it realtime even if it WEREN'T)

Maybe in a few year's time, when CPU horsepower and speed ramp up another power of magnitude or two, but right now, even Melodyne can't make this realtime...

Thanks for the update AJ!

Winter NAMM 2009 is a little over 2 months away and if the Audya is currently in the final stages of fine tuning then Ketron "should" be able to meet its obligation of a Winter NAMM release date.

A few questions if I may AJ. Will it be possible for the Audya to incorporate "new" audio Styles developed by Ketron or other third parties? First, would there be enough OS flash memory overhead on the Audya to allow the loading of new audio Styles into the Audya? If so, could the new audio Styles be loaded into the factory "preset" Style memory area or would they need to be loaded into a custom "User" memory section or Hard Drive section of the keyboard? Also, would new audio Styles be necessarily much of a concern as far as data size goes? In other words, would an audio style take up that much room to begin with within the OS memory area or Hard Drive e.g. only kilobytes in size or more like megabytes in size for each audio style? If it would be possible to load in new audio Styles how much would Ketron consider selling them for, or would they consider giving the audio Styles for free to Audya owners like Korg does with the PA series (although Korg only uses midi data styles NOT audio styles of course).

The Audya WILL be flash ROM up-datable right? What other goodies is Ketron considering throwing in with the purchase of an Audya? There are also some online retail outlets (some brick and mortar stores too) that have 'special' bundle prices they offer with the Yamaha Tyros3 (onboard speakers system, Stand, Foot Pedal, soft carrying case), etc. for a lower price than could be gotten if each item was purchased separately. A two or three year extended warranty from Ketron on an Audya would go a long way in drawing in more customers to purchase the Audya too in my opinion. With such a "high" street price Ketron may want to consider sweetening the deal somewhat with the purchase of an Audya, especially in this global economic finanical market meltdown we're currently experiencing.

Thanks again for filling us in with a few more pieces of the "puzzle" concerning the Audya and of its release to the public AJ. Everything you can tell us is really appreciated.

Best,
Mike