Whether the collapse of a stereo signal is done inside the keyboard, or outside in a mixer, the result should be exactly the same. If there are phasing issues from doing so (it's VERY tricky to get a stereo recording of a source to sound identical to it's mono version).

That's why good mixing boards always have a 'MONO' button on them, so you can check this constantly... Piano is one of the most complex sound sources, difficult to mike well and remain phase accurate over it's entire range (the mike to source ratios change as you go from low to high). Just about everything changes in SOME way with stereo piano sample sets, but some ARE better than others...

One of the things I like to do with the P. Creek sound files is play them mono. Admittedly, it's a 192kbps MP3, so you get a bit of smear compared to a WAV, but it is still possible to hear the likely consequence of collapsing that big, gorgeous grand down to mono and putting it through a keyboard amp or mono PA.

You would be surprised at how few of them survive this well....

While I agree with all of you assertions, I have to conclude the avg Joe Plumber in the audience could not tell the difference in the slight phasing issues and delicacies of the piano sounds.

ITs like spending hours tweaking one channel of audio on a 36 track project. WE listen with microscopic ears in the studio where as the public devours that passing moment without even making a judgment in a high signal to noise ratio environment and could care less about a roll of of 2.5 db of 5 k on a cymbal at a Q of .1hz...... hs

That's not to claim it does not make a difference in the overall mix quality and feel. But 120 less little dabs on Van Goghs Sunflowers would not have changed the value one iota.

Put that on MP3's and what's the point?

Excactly

DITTO!

Gary

Joe Plumber cannot tell WHY he hears the difference, but he knows 'something' is wrong, or better, or worse.

Until he becomes Joe Sixpack, that is...

Look, it's a well discussed issue even here at SZ, not exactly brimming with 'golden ear' studio types (of which I am not one, either ). The sound of the Yamaha pianos changes quite considerable between mono and stereo. It gets 'pinched', or 'hollow', or to the more knowledgeable, 'phase-y'.

You don't need a degree in acoustics to HEAR it.

But you might need one to 'excuse' it away...

The Yamaha pianos do sound the worst in mono...so that means that the sample is at fault, and not the system. 99% of everything else I throw into the L1 is amazing. I tweaked a piano to sound pretty good in mono, but i mainly use EPs anyway, so it's never been much of an issue for me. I'm a Rhodes man .... not a piano player.
(Thanx again, Russ!!!!!!)

YEah I have heard the "don't know why but it's there argument a thousand times in 40 years!! LOL since the vinyl days It's a great rationalization for those who spend $16000 on Speakers too. "That something one cannot explain" I CAN expain it...Imagination. The adjectives when used in audio like sparkle, hollow, phasy? (a new one) make no sense. Tell a monitor sound mixer in a 3000+ seat venue during a sound check you want more "Sparkle" or it sounds "phasy" and watch his face.....I have seen the first example for real....The look is priceless.

Despite the vast expertise on keyboard Arrangers here, I guess i am the only person who advocates mixing for live use done using the Bose LT system (or any System that will be used fpr performanc) Unless the comparison was clearly noticeably inferior, I would put the Phasyish Yamaha mono sound in the category of Yamaha NSMs are not "state of the art" so they cannot possibly create a Platinum worthy mix and or $16,000 BB5s are noticably 8ox better than Paradiams...... or the PA2x sounds better then the Yamaha...or vice-versa...Sound at the levels of these arrangers and the venues they are used in are subjective at best. Specs are not. I don;t care if 12,000 fanatics tell me the Yamaha creates a lesser stereo field unless audience member comes up and says hey man you should have kept that thing in stereo,its way out of phase......I have to take adjectives like "phasy" with a grain of salt. I have heard phase issues first hand, and they are not not subtle. Especially in the Stereo miking world.

Another Bose system at cost would not stretch our budget but we see no need for it and it certainly won't bring anymore work for my wife. There are only 7 days in a week. She chooses to work four.

Besides Stereo in a 6400 SF venue or worse outside, is of no benefit to anyone but the third or less in the very center sweet spot where both driver frequencies tag both their ears at the same time. Much of the time they are dancing or chatting. or doing the Macarena...LOL

Then again the uses a Roland RD and Previa 320 on salty beach or Casino boat gigs. There are mono pianos on the Yamaha gear that would suffice if the problem is that bad,For the most part the average lkistner cannot tell a Fender Rhodes from a Wurlitzer 200....Acoustic pianos would be much harder some REAL and expensive wood and string pianis sound different....




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-19-2008).]

Concerning phasey, I've never tried mixing sereo down to mono - seems like sacrilege to me -lol!
But phasey could make sense:
The Ty2 Live Grand is made up of 2 voice elements - very similar/seemingly identical to my ears when sounded separately- except one is panned hard left, the other hard right in normal use.

To my simple mind if you coalesce these elements into 1 mono channel you have 2 "identical" waveforms superimposed - hence an opportunity for phasing - noticed by some, hence the phasey comments??.
John


[This message has been edited by jwyvern (edited 10-19-2008).]

IF they were exact copies you would have cancellation. That's how vocal eliminators work revers the phases and add them together. Now there may be some frequencies of opposite phase that may cancel each other but but if that was a real issue there are plenty of Mono piano patches to use. The audience would be no wiser. They hear Piano.99.9% don't have a reference to determine what kind or quality unless its really out of bed, No Digital Piano (and lately GM piano) is that far off the make for most Joe Plumber listeners. And its THOSE people we are hired to play for. Not a room full of Music professors and Recording Engineers.

BTW to the guy who mentioned the Radio Shack Optimus 7's . For a long time they were considered great speakers to mix on,

The Lowly MDR7506 head phones are STILL industry standard headphones. I just bought a new pair after 20 years with the old ones. I took the drivers out and put them in my Motorcycle Helmet. They still work well




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-19-2008).]