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#242777 - 09/16/08 05:33 PM Is it time for 'protected' styles?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
I put this in the middle of another thread, but think it maybe deserves discussion on it's own thread...
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The sad fact is, IMO, that so few of us realize just HOW proficient as a keyboardist AND a programmer you need to be to be able to make styles that rival the ROM ones. Until you try, whereupon intense disappointment and disillusion sets in. It's kind of like handing a pro garage's set of tools to a person that bought a car to drive to work and play, in the expectation that perhaps they could fix the car themselves! What percentage of car drivers are mechanics?

Add to that you are not really expecting them to FIX their car, you are expecting them to virtually build a new one!

I've listened to interminable arranger demos, and the one thing that they all seem to point to is how few have the skills to even put up a decent RH part against the arranger, yet alone to be able to program convincing drums, funky bass lines, horny horns , groovy percussion, etc., etc..

Basically, if you can't sequence something that sounds like the real thing, you are in no position to program a style, which, IMO, takes even MORE skill and experience than a sequence. Cut and pasting between ROM styles is the only way I have heard for regular players to stand a chance at equaling the ROM quality, and that really doesn't qualify as style CREATION, does it?

I think that the manufacturers are well aware of this fact, too... Despite adding the style creation tools as a marketing ploy (so few use them, it's not like they would actually be missed at the bottom line), the main makers tend to hoard the good styles VERY tightly, offering just a few as a bonus to their existing customers, but keeping the vast majority to use as ROM styles on the NEXT model they try to sell us. And we generally go and buy those arrangers not necessarily for the new OS features, but simply for those styles.

If this weren't the case, one would expect a LOT more new features and sounds in most model releases...

Primarily, I believe the problem has come because the manufacturers have made NO effort to 'protect' the style ROM and RAM. It must be tough for any of the skilled programmers to get a decent return on their investment in time and effort, when it is a simple thing to trade around these styles like bubblegum cards as soon as they are released.

The recording industry has learned how to protect MP3's and AAC's, to the point where the iTunes store is making millions, if not billions, from SELLING something that a few years ago we all traded around for free. It is LONG past time that the arranger industry provided a secure data area and an individual ID per arranger, that would allow style creators to guarantee that their work was being used by ONLY the person who paid for it.

THEN, the style creators could drop their prices almost to iTunes Store levels... $1 a style, $2 a style, prices like that for QUALITY styles, in the knowledge that EVERYONE who used the style had payed for it. They would make a LOT more money, which would make them make more styles, and we wouldn't be sitting around having this discussion about how difficult it is for normal arranger players (who don't tend to be the great players in the first place!) to make their own styles
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What do you guys think..? Is it time to go back to the ROM styles that couldn't be copied, and add a mechanism for extra style content to be delivered in a PROTECTED format that would incentivize new style development?
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#242778 - 09/16/08 05:44 PM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Diki that aint gonna happen ever again... you know that & so do I .....but Creating YOUR OWN STYLES VERY EASILIY in the keyboard or on a Computer that [b[sound good[/b] is NEEDED ASAP!!

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#242779 - 09/16/08 06:13 PM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
How do you get around the fact that to create a great drum part, you need to be a great drum programmer..? Or to create a great bass line, you need to be a great bass programmer, or to make great horn parts, you need to be a great horn playing emulator?

Computer assembly tools (though they would be welcome) can do nothing to improve your own chops. The best factory ROM styles have a level of playing on them that few on this forum have EVER demonstrated themselves capable of performing.

The dearth of QUALITY user styles (on a par with the ROM) seems to bear this out, IMO.

I posted this on Roland-arranger today. I think it explains how something like this could be an enormous benefit to a company. Whether Roland does this or someone else beats them to the punch, I don't know, but imagine the style makers' response to this technology being available, and especially to the FIRST one to implement it...
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quote; (or, if you prefer, read the whole section of the thread about it from here: http://www.roland-arranger.com/smf/index.php?topic=936.msg5640#msg5640 )

Why an alliance...?

Surely if Roland adopted this for ONLY their keyboards, the first thing that would happen would be every single talented style house would immediately place making Roland styles as it's #1 priority.

The hell with anyone else! Let them put their OWN houses in order...

Right now, the style makers try to make cross-platform styles (mostly unsuccessfully, IMO) because this is the only way to maximize profits to the point where it is economically viable. But if EVERY style sold to a Roland owner was protected, and the rest weren't, I know what I would do as a style maker... DROP ALL THE OTHERS. At least until they adopted the same system.

That alone would surely benefit Roland without adding a single sound or OS improvement. Styles, styles, styles drives the market. A lesser arranger with a greater choice of ROM quality styles would dominate the market, IMO. And one with a continually evolving choice of styles (I believe that, with work, styles that rival WS arps and loops could easily be developed if the money to make the work worthwhile were available to the younger programmer) would be groundbreaking.

I know it's outside the box, but things like this could regain Roland's position, without the slightest cooperation from any other manufacturer.
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What I'd like to know, Donny, is how could this HURT a manufacturer that adopted it? I am not talking about removing style creation tools, for those that want to use them. And I am not talking about the ability to share USER created content. But a way for the professional style creator to protect their work is essential if we want to avoid HAVING to buy a new arranger, just to get the new styles (or wait for inferior conversions for legacy models), and have a never ending supply of styles at affordable prices that rival the ROM ones.

I think it is the only thing that could possibly change the status quo, and few are happy with THAT, IMO...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#242780 - 09/16/08 06:20 PM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
JCkeeys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 584
Loc: St. James,New York,USA
Diki (or anyone) Is it possible to develope a technology (or does it exist) that would allow on on line purchase (from a seller/style maker) that was only downloadable one time to your keyboard (Roland, Korg, Ketron etc.) and unable to be extracted? Therefore making it difficult to copy?

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#242781 - 09/16/08 06:37 PM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
rattley Offline
Member

Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 832
Loc: Punta Gorda Florida USA
Wow Diki!! .................I'm glad you aren't running for president on that campaign. Sony spent millions on DVD protection years ago, and some smart ass told the world how to beat it within a week of its implementation. Limewire and other sites online offer anything you want for free or little money, if you don't care about copyright. You can't teach and preach integrity. I sometimes think the challenge of cracking something forbidden or copyrighted is what drives these hackers. Last year I paid $400 for my own real licensed copy of Vista. It was the first time I ever paid money for an operating system. I always "found" copys of previous OS's. At first I felt good about having an authentic version, then I felt screwed about having the worst operating system I ever had. It cost a lot more to get the better hardware and software to get it to run its best. And my favorite soundblaster card I loved are junk now. Vista will never allow them.............. Of course I'm rambling now, but just remember..........Be careful in what you ask for. You may just get it! -charley

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#242782 - 09/16/08 06:44 PM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Well, Apple have managed it... It keys off the unique identifier of each individual computer. A chip on the motherboard of an arranger with a unique ID# would perhaps do the same thing. Then ethernet or USB direct internet connection could provide a secure delivery into a protected area of RAM, that the OS does NOT allow the file transfer system to read... A bit like IDC, but with protection, I would imagine.

I am not geek enough to flesh it out (I leave that to the company), and I have no guarantee that it couldn't be cracked, with sufficient determination. But despite the fact that DRM can be bypassed with great skill and effort, it hasn't stopped the iTunes store from turning around a planet's wholesale thievery of copyrighted music, and providing a simple interface and a reasonable pricing structure so those that DO want to play by the rules can do so, which has benefited both the customer, AND the industry that provides the content.

I imagine this would not stop the most determined from making MIDI files from the styles, and reassembling the style from the export. But this would take considerable effort, time and skill, which probably wouldn't be even attempted if the style, to purchase, was a buck or so...

This is how Apple have managed it. It's easy and cheap to get what you want legally (which it wasn't during the Napster heyday), so a vast number have chosen to use it.

I don't see why this couldn't work for the arranger...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#242783 - 09/16/08 06:56 PM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Rattley....

We are a TINY, tiny number of users, of mostly non-technical, computer-cracking illiterates

Why would anyone even BOTHER with cracking this, if the styles (the content) were so valueless to all but those with the arranger in the first place..? This isn't the trillion dollar movie industry. This is a few thousand users of a unique product. The trick is to make the bother of cracking it more expensive (in terms of hours of work) than the value of the downloadable product. Hardware keyed products are the toughest nut to crack.

My UAD-1 cards have been out for years, with all fully functional demos downloadable from the start, of quite expensive plug-ins. But they are keyed to the card itself. And as of yet, despite tens of thousands having been sold, no-one has cracked it yet. Some hacker kid in a bedroom in China (or Burbank!) is NOT going to bother trying to crack a protection system for a product he doesn't even have...

Audio computer software, especially the PC versions, are hacked almost as fast as they come out. But the UAD-1 card has remained untouched for many years now, despite it's VERY high value and quality, because of the hardware key.

THAT'S how it can be done...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#242784 - 09/17/08 12:02 AM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: English Riviera, UK
All Microsoft OS from XP are linked to the hardware in the computer to prevent implementation on other computers, however unlike Apple with its limited, extortionate expensive upgrades, you can stick anything YOU (Not what Apple says you should have) want into a PC, which means it has to be more flexible.

Regarding DRM, have a look around, as manufactures and distributors are dropping it at an ever increasing pace.

Regarding Styles, unless you prevent the arranger engine from being able to output them, (Great for open keyboards as everything is loaded internally, but for 90% of players a complete No No) protection would not be possible. (Users already complain that some keyboards are difficult to use external software/hardware with the style engine)

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#242785 - 09/17/08 10:28 AM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Bill, re-read my post...

How can you explain the UAD-1 software NEVER being cracked?

And look, if the style is keyed to the arranger, the only person that could laboriously reassemble the style from MIDI would be the person that had actually bought it in the first place. Why would he even bother, to save someone ELSE a buck or two?

Sure, if you can give away a purchased style with no more effort than attaching it to an email, you are likely to do it. But if it takes HOURS of your time for each style (have you ever TRIED to recreate a style this way? It is by NO MEANS easy!), what is the incentive?

Look, this isn't the music industry, who are going to produce product even if it IS copied wholesale. This is a tiny industry, and the talented teams that make the ROM styles are NOT going to make any for general release in any quantity when there is so little revenue to be made. It's either this, or the NOTHING we are currently getting. Without protection there ARE no new styles to trade around. With protection, there would be styles available, and a low enough guaranteed price would remove the desire to even TRY to crack it.

You guys are still mired in thinking of this as simple software protection. Once again, I reiterate...

Hardware keyed protection is the toughest nut to crack.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#242786 - 09/17/08 04:32 PM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: English Riviera, UK
I have been working with computers and technology for years and I can assure you that hardware is NOT the hardest nut to crack, for the simple reason that it doesn’t change, whereas software can continually move the goal posts.
As to your UAD card it is no different the Pulsar II card in that the plug-in will not work without it. (It’s the sound engine)
As an example; if somebody cloned the software in your G70, it would be of no use to them without the Roland sound engine, so there is no point in cloning the software.
Styles are just Midi loops, and so cannot be tied to hardware. (Unless you strive to undo the universal communication that has been continually developed for the last 25 years)

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#242787 - 09/17/08 06:31 PM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Sorry, Bill, but I think you STILL fail to see the point.

The only hardware is the UAD-1 card, which is a proprietary card with audio DSP on it. The SOFTWARES are the continually upgraded OS versions, with fully functional versions of ALL the plugins on it.

No-one has ever cracked the software copy protection, because each card has a unique identifier on it, which the authorization ONLY works for.

Take another look at what you wrote... "hardware is NOT the hardest nut to crack, for the simple reason that it doesn’t change, whereas software can continually move the goal posts".

This does NOT happen in the real world. The software only programs are cracked as soon as they come out (and have to be constantly changed for them to have any effectiveness), and yet the hardware KEYED software for the UAD-1 has NEVER been cracked. It is a VERY popular product, with one of the highest reputations for quality sound in the business. And the software to run on it costs THOUSANDS if you buy ALL the plug-ins. A high value target for the crackers, if you will. No-one has succeeded. EVER... Can you explain this in light of your quote?

Remember, computer software is designed to run on a generic device. The UAD-1 software (and anything keyed to a unique identifier in an arranger as well) will only run on that system. AFAIK, only Yamaha have a style format that is identical (except for the extension) to a MIDI file. All the rest are proprietary. Why can't the motherboard of the arranger have the same kind of hardware keying that each and every UAD-1 has..?

Answer this simple question... OAS is quite an expensive upgrade, isn't it? It's keyed to the hardware in a Wersi, isn't it? Has it been cracked, yet? Can you get it for free?

Why wouldn't a similar system work for any arranger?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#242788 - 09/17/08 11:55 PM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Without a UAD board the plug-ins wont work, (No sound engine) so what would be the point of cracking them, as you would still need a UAD board.
BTW the UAD like the Pulsar 2 is programmable, and it is easy to read the binary code used, (Its converted to decimal for easy entry) but what’s the point as you still need the sound engine on the card.

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#242789 - 09/18/08 12:27 AM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Styles run on the arranger... without the arranger, same deal.

Look, I think we are over-thinking this. Yamaha use ethernet to deliver content to the T2. My idea would be basically the same, except to add a unique, per-arranger ID to each unit. The arranger hooks to the internet, sends it's unique ID, this is incorporated into the style that is sent back so it ONLY works on the arranger with that ID.

No ID, no play. Strip out the ID, and it still doesn't play on any other unit...

I'm just not quite sure why everyone is so hell-bent to shoot down this idea. Hardware keyed software DOES remain secure, and anything that allowed the ROM quality style creators to be able to sell styles without fear of piracy has GOT to encourage them to do it a LOT more than they do now.

What's the #1 thing everyone wants? MORE STYLES, MORE STYLES, MORE STYLES... Why don't we get them? Because everyone (OK not everyone, but enough!) steals them, trades them, swaps them as soon as they have them. Anything that breaks this cycle has GOT to help increase the choice.

Bottom line is, if the price for styles is lowered to the point where it ain't worth cracking, nobody is even going to try, and the hardware key should make it close to impossible, anyway... But that price won't drop until the developers are SURE that they will get money for each copy used...

OK... Still don't like the idea? Come up with a better one.

It's about the only way I see around the problem. Any alternatives (other than we ALL stop copying them)?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#242790 - 09/18/08 12:39 AM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by abacus:
Without a UAD board the plug-ins wont work, (No sound engine) so what would be the point of cracking them, as you would still need a UAD board.
BTW the UAD like the Pulsar 2 is programmable, and it is easy to read the binary code used, (Its converted to decimal for easy entry) but what’s the point as you still need the sound engine on the card.

Bill


Because the board is cheap (a few hundred dollars) but the plug-ins can total THOUSANDS extra. Tens of thousands of people have the board but no-one has ever cracked the copy protection, and ALL the software is fully functional. You don't download a demo version, the OS has ALL the fully functional versions in it of ALL the plug-ins. But they time out after a demo period, and that's IT...

Until you pay for the authorizations, absolutely NOTHING can make them run again. Pretty good, eh?

BTW, if you have never used a UAD-1 card, I HIGHLY recommend them. They just came out with new, higher plug-in count versions in PCI-Express form, and the plug-ins ROCK. Best compressors, EQ's, vintage channel strips, transient designers, you name it. Worth every penny and no way to cheat! Buy one of these, load it up with plug-ins, and you can guarantee that no bedroom jockey is using the same thing for free

That's more than you can say for MOST software plug-ins, these days. Half of it doesn't even run well because of all the useless PACE and other protection schemes they write in.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#242791 - 09/18/08 02:28 AM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:

I'm just not quite sure why everyone is so hell-bent to shoot down this idea.


Coz they are scared of not getting free styles anymore!!
FWIW, I think its a brilliant idea...anything that enables a company to show a profit they will look at..Proprietary styles would become big business for each of the makers.
So much so that they probably would only have to charge maybe a $1 a style..
Instead of releasing operating system upgrades, just release 100's of new styles each year - song specific styles-genre specific styles - styles for the current top 40 (much the same as SMF makers do) the lsit goes on and on.

Super idea.

Dennis

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#242792 - 09/18/08 09:47 AM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
mr9000 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/05
Posts: 318
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:



What's the #1 thing everyone wants? MORE STYLES, MORE STYLES, MORE STYLES... Why don't we get them?


Please don't include me in this "everyone wants styles" nonsense!!!!
I think 98% of ALL styles being offered out here in cyberland suck!I think i have saved a total of(drum roll) 7styles over the last year.I'll stick to making my own thank-you very much!
I would like the companies to ADD NEW features to keyboards WITHOUT removing old ones that is ALL i ask,but still recieve a resounding 'NO can do' from the yamahites.

Sorry T3,er.. Tyros2.5 not biting this time either.

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#242793 - 09/18/08 12:57 PM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
mr9000, why do you think that the styles suck? Presumably, you like a lot of the ROM styles, don't you? The reason that out in cyberland, they suck is because they aren't made by the same talented guys that make the ROM ones...

They are made by ordinary Joe's like you and me (OK, not you... sure like to hear what YOUR user styles sound like, though!) who aren't as good as these guys. But the best programmers don't offer them for sale because they can't make a profit doing it. If they could, they WOULD (they are PLENTY happy to make them for the money that the Big 3 pay!).

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 09-18-2008).]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#242794 - 09/18/08 01:06 PM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
. sure like to hear what YOUR user styles sound like, though!) who aren't as good as these guys.



Exactly Diki ....that would solve it all in a nutshell as usual.

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#242795 - 09/18/08 07:02 PM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
mr9000 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/14/05
Posts: 318
Diki mr9000, why do you think that the styles suck?
>Actually they are not of any interest to me because they ALL sound the same(big band-bluegrass,waltz) VERY seldom is dance of any use because it always has that factory house-style within it.
--------------------------------------------
Dnj quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Diki:
. sure like to hear what YOUR user styles sound like, though!) who aren't as good as these guys.

--------------------------------------------DnjWrote:"that would solve it all in a nutshell as usual"

I would share few styles but when i say most styles "suck" i am being 100% truthful.Just be honest with yourselves and HEAR how close they all sound to any basic style already onboard.I've a better idea YOU send me a style you like and i'll work with it.

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#242796 - 09/18/08 07:27 PM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
I currently have more than 40,000 style files on hand, many of which range from poor to mediocre at best. However, I also have a couple thousand that are outstanding and I use them a lot. While many are song specific, there are loads of great Latin, Rock, Waltz, Ballad, etc.. styles available, but it takes a bit of work to sort through them, tune the ones you really like, then save them in a data base that allows you to access them at a later date. WORK is the key word. If you're lazy and want someone else to do that for you, then as they say in NY forgetaboutit!

Gary
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PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#242797 - 09/19/08 02:54 AM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Back in the day, you paid £45 GBP ($80 USD) for FOUR (count 'em) styles from Roland, if you wanted to expand your E-20/30. And they were terrific, robust, usable musical styles, almost without exception.

Now you pay NOTHING for THOUSANDS of styles and they are mediocre at best, feeble at worst.

I would love to see Roland's in-house programmers going back to to writing styles. The "Gold" styles that were bundled with the E-80 v2 upgrade are an excellent example of old school Roland styles - authentic, generic, genuinely usable styles - that get a lot of play on my 'board. I'd happily pay for more.

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#242798 - 09/19/08 08:54 AM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
mr9000.... It's entirely up to you whether you want to share your original styles or not. I wasn't suggesting that. But it would be interesting to HEAR a few of them, and get to understand what you are talking about. Are you actually claiming your own self made styles are BETTER than the ROM styles? Or just in genres that the ROM doesn't cover?

As I said, I've been listening to and collecting user styles and translations for quite a while, and the ones amongst them that even come CLOSE to the quality of the best ROM could be counted on one hand... One of the things I have noticed lately is the dramatic difference that multi-velocity drumkits have made to the 'reality' and dynamics of modern ROM styles. Unfortunately, Gary, few of the older styles even had ANY dynamics in them, yet alone match up well with the samples in my arranger. And that isn't even taking into consideration all the 'ghosting', flam and extra hi-hats, etc., that didn't even exist in those older kits.

There is something about a style being played on the instrument it was developed on that is utterly different from a translation, even to a later model from the same maker. They are always poor country cousins to the original. And that difference becomes greater, the more complex the drum kit becomes.

It would be interesting to hear just how many, even with all the extra work, of your 'web' found styles that equal the best of your ROM ones. Or even hear a short demo of any of them.

Back in the days of GM drumkits, translation used to be easier, but now most manufacturers have tossed standardization out the window, velocity curves and switch points are all completely different between manufacturers, and to my ears, even the best of what was around ten years ago sounds stiff and dated compared to the new stuff.

This is why I think it is SO important to find a way that the creators of the current ROM styles find a way to be able to continue by themselves. Most people think they are doing a great job (the ROM styles is probably the #1 selling point of an arranger to most people - great OS, lousy styles = no sale!). and most people would like a lot MORE...

How else are we going to get this?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#242799 - 09/20/08 06:58 PM Re: Is it time for 'protected' styles?
MarcK Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 205
I agree that on a modern arranger, trying to create a decent style, or even a single decent style PART, from scratch - is all but impossible unless you are a studio-grade performer and a top-notch computer head to boot. That said, one feature I do find particularly useful is the "Style Assembly" that Yamaha gives on the PSR-3000 (etc.). Taking existing parts from various styles and combining them in different ways provides immense flexibility in customizing styles to fit your particular needs.

Ironically, the custom style creation features were more relevant a decade ago, when the styles and parameters were simpler - the gap between a stock style and a user style was not as noticeable.

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