Thnx. T3 is impressive.

Pity,

Such a fabulous board, unbelievable sounds and arrangements - but those drums

I agree with you on the drums Zuki... Again, way over compressed. Seem to lack dynamics too.

Nice to see the Tyros3 "open for business."

I have received a great many e-mails from Yamaha enthusiasts with nothing but praise for this incredible instrument.

Those who heard it "live" were very impressed.

The demos blew me away, but I shall reserve my final judgement when I get to play one.

The "Yamaha sound" moves onward and upward,..for those who don't like it...there's always Korg or Roland.

Ian

I liked what I saw and heard, but nevertheless a bit anti-climatic and no way as exciting as the release of T2.

In my opinion those Drums spoil an otherwise impressive sounding presentation.

I hope Yamaha is taking notice with people's continual lack of enthusiasm for the Tyros's drum sounds on this their third incarnation Tyros3. Hopefully they will get it right on the Tyros4. And include at least 15 extra keys to go along with it.

Loved the Clarinet, liked the AC Piano sound better in this demonstration than the other demos I've heard. Liked the Sweet! Flute and Saxes really well. But those DRUMS!!

It simply spoils the greatness of the Tyros3 in my humble opinion. If the Drums were up to the same caliber as the Motif ES/XS it would put the Tyros3 in a different league but as it stands now the Drums in many cases are simply a "distraction" i.e. distracting from the overall goodness and in some cases 'greatness' of the other Tyros3 sounds.

>> I did notice in the video that there were a few instances that the drums didn't sound "too" bad and a couple spots they actually sounded half way decent. But in the majority of footage they sounded unacceptable to me and my discerning audiophile ears. And many others seem to agree with me. Except maybe Ian of course. lol

Sorry Ian. I'm not trying to dis you or anything. I know you have a partiality to Yamaha, as I do too really. As a good employee it bequeaths you to stick up for your Boss, which is commendable by the way. As a side note - a little more objectivity given a little more often wouldn't hurt your relationship with Yamaha I wouldn't think though - and in the process, look at all the new company you would find yourself in eh? You know, the mainstream of modern thought that weighs the facts in an accurate way, on an accurate scale - that supports the facts instead of predisposed and unrealistic views?

Of course, not all the time, nor on every subject. Some things are worth fighting for.

But when it comes to Yamaha I fail to ascertain why you seem so fanatical in your stance toward this keyboard company? Are you receiving more on that paycheck then we realize? Just kidding. I enjoy your input here on SZ myself Ian. But when it comes to anything Yamaha I have to realize I need to tread lightly with you and take it with a grain or two of salt and then digest it very slowly; all the while trying not to hold resentment against you in any way, shape, or form. Which can be a real trial in itself to do sometimes. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] lol.. I do try and give it my best shot though. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/cool.gif[/img]

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 09-10-2008).]

Stay close to that salt shaker, Mike, but remember that too much salt can be bad for you...high blood pressure a problem?

It can affect your thinking, you know...delusions and hallucinations are not uncommon.

I don't think you're dissing me, Mike, you don't have the goods to be able to do that...and don't worry about resentment...it will bother you more than me.

I'm glad you're a Yamaha fan...it's one of the things I like about you...the only one, perhaps, but still, better than nothing I guess.

Have a nice day.

Ian

Who is Martin Harris?

Why aren't the regular guys demo-ing it?



------------------
Bill in Dayton

Martin is one of the best Yamaha players,works for ages for Yamaha UK.

Strange you didnt know ?

Impuls

nice instrument, but nicer demonstrator! very good playing!

Actually, Martin has been doing clinics and demos for the Workstation instruments; i.e. Motif, etc.

Well, strange or not, I've only seen Peter Baartman and Michel Voncken do the demos.

A quick search on Youtube for "martin harris and yamaha" produced one video...

I only use the Tyros line...seems like perhaps he's done more with other products...

Seems like a fine player, but didn't impress me like the other guys have. I'm still curious why he's doing the demos and not Baartman or Voncken...

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 09-10-2008).]

I am having a hard time even getting the demos to play. I suppose they must be getting a huge load on their server.

Anyhow, what I did hear proved to be as I suspected and has already been mentioned. The drums are definitely TYROS and way out of date now. Perhaps they should consider contracting with BFD to provide drum samples and a complete gui so that the user can define the drum sounds. The other instruments I heard are up to the usual exceptional Tyros standards. Enough said.

Danny

[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 09-10-2008).]

The demo is good.

Actually there's no need for them to contract out for better drums. Yamaha already makes better kits.... They're on the Motif XS series. Again..., it's yet another repeat of Yamaha's refusal to go the other way with their sounds. The many very impressive signature voices that make the Yamaha arranger line so popular were good enough to add to the Motif line (but Yamaha changed some of the names so the synths wouldn't have the PSR association--gotta protect their sales I guess), but again.., Yamaha will not go the other way. Given the Tyros is their top (very expensive arranger-costing more than their top 88 key workstation), the least Yamaha could do is give the Tyros some of the kits from the XS line... I'll tell ya what.., those styles would freaking jump out of the keyboard if they were being driven by Motif XS drum kits.

Squeak,
Place a side by side comparison ,i think there is not as much difference.

Impuls

Too Bad...darn it...that the Motif XS does not have a Yamaha XG sound set mapping...then you could get a Motif Rack and use it nicelyu with the T1,T2, T3.

Lee

Maybe the Tyros3 might be getting closer, but it's still not there. I will say that while at Guitar Center last year.., I talked the guys into hooking the Tyros2 and Motif XS up to do a side by side comparison... (I was blown away as this GC had the Tyros2 not even in the pro keyboard section, but sitting in the low end arranger department! The drums on the XS clearly overpowered the Tyros2.., BUT for the people that were there and many who had heard about the SA voices..., not ONE person there thought the SA voices on the XS sounded as good as they did on the Tyros2. You'll even find Motif XS owners saying the same thing

Anyways..., they may be getting closer to Motif quality drums, but from what I heard in the demos they're not there yet. It's not rocket science for Yamaha either. It's not like they gotta suddenly come up with entirely new samples. They already got them.., they've alreayd taken sounds from the arrangers and added to the synths.., now they just need to go the other way.

I bet if Tyros owners start sreaming GIVE US BETTER DRUMS DAMNIT..., Yamaha just might listen.

**On a side note..., I did dig into the guys there and asked why in the hell would they take a top end arranger like the Tyros and not have it in the pro section because the Tyros clearly isn't some low end budget arranger.... They didn't go into too much detail, but hinted that command from the mothership didn't allow them to put it in the pro keyboard section.... I actually had a great time while there and made several visits to their store while vacationing. The keyboard sales guy new jack..., VERY LITTLE ABOUT KEYBOARDS. The only thing he was really good at was the bass guitar and using an MPC. I spent some time with him teaching him how to navigate the Motif XS..., and helped him better understand the arranger keyboard. The funny thing was that the guy was an arranger keyboard snubber.., but after I was done showing him how to run the Tyros and what it could do...., he kept saying "Man I gotta get me one of these". Ahhhhhh another one converted



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 09-11-2008).]

It must be a matter of taste, but in my view the drums sound excellent, realistic AND powerfull, just like the other instruments in T3.
What (in detail) is wrong with the T-drums for those who dislike it?

I was told Martin Harris is responsible for the total TyrosX product (as Chief engineer) On top of that he is a very good player/demoist.

Exactly Roel....its ALL personal taste....who is to say whats right or wrong? on top of that the Player can EDIT all sounds to their liking including the Drums......& after demoing the unit a potential buyer can choose to BUY ANOTHER BRAND. All this hate makes no sense & honestly its getting boring.

To answer your question I say it's an issue of DYNAMICS. Yamaha could bring their drums MORE to life if they backed off on the compression. That's IMO a huge part of the problem. When the drums are over compressed.., you lose the dynamics..., and then you add "hard quantize" to it and again you lose more dynamics. It also has a lot to do with drum kits that have many levels of velocity switching... Roland for example has a lot of velocity switching in their kits... We've often heard Korg and Roland's style sound more LIVE..., well that's because they're not quantized at 100%..., the style utilizes the multiple layers within the drum kits..., you have moer specific ACCENT notes.., ect.

Squeak ......you said it right there "IMO"

The Drums are great to thousands of players..yamaha is not going to change anything....either people like their sound or buy something else.....its simple.
There is NO right or wrong.

Correctomundo, Donny...there is no right or wrong.

When we purchase an arranger, we are purchasing a "personality"...we can adjust (tweak) it a bit, but just like people, the core nature remains the same.

Ian

Well if that is the case, Tyros 3 appears to have an audience that has no knowledge of real-word sounding instruments. Funny how you guys critize pianosounds, guitarsounds and all, but when it comes to drums, it's about "the personality" of the keyboard.

Don't make me laugh. Tyros 3 drums are even more a joke than the ones in Tyros 2.

It's hard to make a comedian laugh...they've heard all the jokes before...but, you are entertaining nevertheless.

I thought you said you were a drummer?

Guess you've found your real calling.

Ian the Amused

Burkels....
what is the problem ...just go buy a different keyboard? One man's Joke is another man's Treasure

Exactly, Donny...simply choose what sounds/plays/works best for your own needs.

That's why it's so cool that each manufacturer has it's own characteristic "sound"...we all hear differently...we all know what pleases our ear.

Some of us are even lucky enough to know what we want...and, some will never be pleased...ah, but that's what makes this site both informative, and entertaining.

Ian

I agree with DNJ, just buy something else if you don't like it. I did.
No more Yammies until they improve the vocal harmony and drums. I can play recordings of myself on PSR8000, 2000, Tyros 2 and the drums are essentially the same. I think the VH on the 8000 sounds BETTER.
Now, there are PLENTY of improvements in almost every other area, certainly enough to make T3 a killer keyboard. And, the audience don't care, it's all about what I want to hear.
DonM

Multi-velocity, ambiently recorded drum sounds are the wave of the future... Strike that, they are the wave of NOW..

Some of the most popular VSTi's are things like EZ Drummer, Groove Agent, BFD, DFH2, etc., that combine automatic generation of drum tracks with fills, intros and endings etc. (because our WS and DAW brothers have just as hard a time as we do creating utterly convincing drum parts from scratch!), with drum sounds that are recorded with MANY different velocity splits, and with adjustable ambience.

The results of these plug ins are drum tracks you would be hard to spot as anything other than a live drummer. Dynamics is much more that an increase in volume, as far as a drum is concerned. The more velocity splits you have, the more realistic the sound, and with good programming the more realistic the groove.

Until arrangers embrace this approach (and even Roland have a long way to go to match BFD!) we are always hobbled from the start. Great drum grooves need great, dynamic drum sounds.

I think it is a mistake to go down the 'chopped loop' route, that Ketron seem to want to do with the Audya, when utterly convincing results can be had simply using better, more dynamic drum kits, and using the old reliable MIDI as it's driver. It's easier to edit, it's easier to create, and it's easier to change around completely. A loop is a loop... There's not a whole lot you can do to it.

But I think a lot of Yamaha's problems in the drum department are self-inflicted. I seem to remember someone (was it Gary?) posted a demo a year or two back that had the T2's drums pumped in the mix, and a lot of the mastering compression taken off. They sounded MUCH better. Not, unfortunately, quite as good as the Roland V-Kits, IMO, but a BIG improvement. Unshackle the T3, and possibly it can start to get cooking!

In the meantime, with 1GB of sample RAM available (any details about load-up times on the T3 yet?), the opportunity for someone to create a SERIOUSLY punchy TVN drum kit (or three!) with gobs of vel-splits awaits. It's just drums (little programming required). Surely SOMEBODY out there could fill this need...?

Toontracks, are you listening?

Bart/Burkels more or less thinks he's te 'Center of the Universe'. He does not tolerate other peoples opinions/views and states those other people do not have knowledge and do not know where they are talking about..... truly shocking.

I sincerely hope that ALL the extra SA switches can be assigned to a multi-button footpedal...

That's a serious amount of work for your left hand to do, while trying to trigger the damn chords at the same time!

When, of when are you guys going to 'get it'? A chord sequencer is the best way to be able to still play in arranger mode, and free up your left hand to do some of those amazing things

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 09-11-2008).]

Well holy sh#&^&% smack my ass and color me purple......, I JUST HAD A GREAT IDEA FOR YAMAHA! STEVE DEMING I HOPE YOU READ THIS! What's the obvious hook for the Tyros2 and the Tyros3...??? (DRUM ROLL......) The answer.., SUPER ARTICULATION VOICES.... Well Yamaha I have your next big pitch for the Tyros4... SUPER ARTICULATED DRUMS!!!!!!!

Just imagine how those styles would pop if Yamaha added SUPER ARTICULATION DRUMS to the next Tyros and started using (what has become common in other major brands of keyboards) which is indepth velocity switching on the the drum kits.

Of course as stated we all have that different opinion, but I have in several posts seen Yamaha users even say they'd like a more LIVE feeling to the drums.... SUPER ARTICULATED DRUMS would be the answer...

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 09-11-2008).]

You mean multi-layer, velocity cross-switched drums, like Roland and Korg already have? But use the letters SA, and all the Yamaha fanboys will think they have something unique and groundbreaking?

Sound like a good idea (for Yamaha advertising)!

Thing is, Yamaha already DO have some vel-split drums. Just not many, and still pretty dry and undynamic. They don't need new technology, they simply need to leverage better the technology they already have.

I simply don't understand why, given the drum sound is probably the #1 criticism from even OWNERS of the T2, why Yamaha themselves have not come out with some TVN's of MotifXS drum sounds, or port some of the DTX kits over to TVN (like Roland ported the TD-Drums to their arrangers). Drums don't use up THAT much RAM, making them relatively quick to load...

This would be money in the bank, for Yamaha, IMO. A no-brainer...

SA drums could easily be done with a software upgrade--not rocket science.

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

You got my point then Yes, Roland and Korg have been doing this for a while now. I'm shocked that my Roland RS-70 (circa 2003) has more indepth velocity switching on the drum kits than you'd find on a high end Yamaha arranger. Granted the XS's kits aren't IMO up to par with Roland's..., the Tyros could clearly benefit from the use of the MotifXS's acoustic kits.

Gary..., they can do a software upgrade, BUT that software upgrade would mean Yamaha would have to include raw samples into the OS update.., again meaning you'd have to use the onboard sample memory.., which depending on the size could take longer on boot-up depending on how large the new sampled kits are.., and taking into consideration the Tyros line hasn't been praised for fast load time of samples.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 09-11-2008).]

Martin is the Global Content Development Manager employed directly by Yamaha Japan so is responsible for the Tyros 3 and Peter Baartmans and Michel Vonken would be partly answerable to him.

Actually Martin has as HUGE role in the keyboard development at Yamaha. He's the one who does the PSR-S500 video demo on the Yamaha USA site..., and he give a brief description of his job with Yamaha.

Gary, I surprised that you would say that. SA voices take way more memory than conventional voices. Absolutly impossible to itroduce SA voices without adding more memory or stealing it from somewhere else.

The idea of SA drums is interesting, but I don't think it's realistic on an arranger keyboard. SA is not simple velocity switching. We've been doing that for years, and so has everyone else (not necessarily with drums). SA responds differently determined by how you play. Most keyboard players don't "play" the drums. The drums play by themselves within the context of a pattern or a style or a song. You can create a pattern or a style, but again, the vast majority of us (in the arranger world) don't. So we're going to dedicate a HUGE chunk of resources to a segment of the instrument that most customers will never "play"?

I'm not saying there's no room for improvement in the drums (a matter of opinion, not fact) but SA is absolutely not the best way to approach such an improvement.


I don't know how feasable all this is, but I like your thinking. Keep talking.

OK..., how about Mega Drums, Cool, and Sweet Kits

I do also see where you're coming from about drum being played from the keys by arranger players... I mentioned this issue on another thread about what I often find deters people from creating user sytles and that's having to record the drum parts which for some is extremely hard to do.

With all due respect Steve, Yamaha do this already with the drums on the Motif XS series.

Again, is it a case of one division not wanting (or being allowed?) to share technology with another?

Man if you guys put the XS drums into the Tyros, what a sound you would have then!!!

Dennis

What he said. Especially the ambience part. Also, it is critical, imo, to have separate level controls (I do not mean varying the levels with velocity since velocity should be for various samples) for EACH drum in the kit. That's why I said there is a need for a gui drum screen to setup user defined drumsets. Position of the microphones should be variable on any drum to provide either close mic without bleed or more room ambience. It's the difference between CANNED drums and REALISTIC drums. And certainly the ability to randomize the drum hits in the loop. And ditto on the harmonizer comments although I fixed that problem years ago when I bought a TC Helicon Voiceworks.

Danny




[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 09-11-2008).]

Yamaha could easily create those kis to load into the Tyros 3 Diki.... However, the most logical and cost effective thing for them to do is break down what ever wall they have between the workstation and arranger design teams.., and let them play together every now and then. Roland and Korg clearly do this as it's obvious by what the PA's sound set orginiated from..., and its carried over synth editing features... Plus Roland is clearly sharing not only between the two departments.., but even breaking bread with the drum department (as can be seen with the drum kit samples on the G-70)

Based on the demos of the kits I've heard so far (in the songs, and the solo demos).. The Motif XS still towers over the T3 with its drum kits. This is Yamaha's Pro Arranger Workstation for Pete's Sake! The easiest and most cost effective thing to do would be to carry some of those kits from the XS to the Tyros line.. Hell they already carry voices from the Tyros line over to the Motif series.... If the XS is worthy of those great sounding Tyros signature voices...., then clearly the (obvious strong support for the Tyros line by its users) should be enough to say that Tyros users should be (or ARE) worthy of getting some of those great XS sounds too..., especially at what price they have to pay to get the Tyros.

I can't imagine how many complaints would come from users if suddenly they had better quality acoustic and electronic kits on their Tyros.. I would love to hear a style on the Tyros that then had the acoustic kit replaced by a kit from the Motif XS. If Yamaha did that.., then backed off on the compression just a bit HOLY SH$&^ would that style POP!

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 09-12-2008).]

Steve,

I believe it is technically feasible to create SA drums, and compress and streamline the data to the point where the additional memory consumed would be minimal. I agree, however, that few if any user would utilize SA drums in the creation of styles. For me it's a mute point. I like the drum kits that already exist, but then again I took time to tune my registrations to where I like the overall sound.

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Gary..., the hell with creating styles man How about some killer Super Articulated Drums that are part of the PRESET STYLES...

I think SUPER ARTICULATED DRUMS would be a very cool thing..., they could replace preset kits in certain SHOWCASED styles, and for those who do write their own styles.., they'd sure make one heck of a useful tool for them.

Steve is you read this again..., If you do create something along the lines of SA drums... no need to cut me a check Just ship me a shiney new PSR-S550 and we'll call it square Of course I'll lay claim to the Mega, Sweet, and Cool kits too..., again if that's the route.., just pack that S-550 up and send her my way

Just think of all the great names you could have for these kits. Like the "Mega Rock Kit" or the "Cool Jazz Kit" or the SA Big Band Kit....


[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 09-12-2008).]