We have all this speculation going on now that the gods at Yamaha have hinted that there is going to be a new Tyros 3. Well let me tell you how this is going to play out.

The Yamaha fans are worshiping at the alter waiting for the third coming. They pray to the gods at Yamaha to PLEASE give them a hint, a peek, a factory leak about what the new Ty3 will have on it.

It leaks out that there are more Super Duper articulated voices on this baby. A SDA (Super Duper Articulated) Kazoo will be included for the first time. The realism will be stunning. Next SDA voice will be a new bagpipe so real you could shoot it. They are going to up the ante to 6 multipads even though most players hardly use 1. The Yammie zealots go nuts!

It doesn't matter to the Yammie fans that it's the same old toy vocalizer and crappy drums. We have been blessed.

Of course the piano players will whine that there are STILL only 61 keys. When oh when are they going to make this third coming in a 76 key model. They pray fervently for 76 keys. The organ players will still not care that there only 61 keys and Uncle Dave will still not use it because it has no internal speakers.

Diki will still prefer his G70. Fran will go and try one out and give us a great report but in the end say his G70 is the greatest.

Abacus will compare it to the Wersi. It doesn't matter that Wersi is ten times the price not portable and service, parts and availability are atainable only in England.

Squeak will tell us that the Casio is almost as good for $399.00.

Don Mason will buy it sight unseen, play it for 6 months, and dump it for a Ketron MidJay.

Boo will remind us that his antique Korg has 8 and 16 bar loops.

Donny will buy it and play it for 2 days or 2 hours (take your pick on this one) and dump it for his S900.

We Zoneeers will start a pool to pick the day and hour Donny dumps it.

If this sounds like the movie groundhog day that's because it is. It's the "Same old S***) just a different day.

Before the lynch mob assembles I'm just having a little fun.

Tom

[This message has been edited by Tom Cavanaugh (edited 08-15-2008).]

Tom....
Are you sure about that SDA Kazoo? If true, I'm in. Maybe after Donny does his 2-day break in period, he will sell me his.
Eddie

Nice one Tom

I will let you know how good the Kazoo is in about 3 - 4 weeks or so.

Bill


[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 08-16-2008).]

Now thats one of the most entertaining (and true) posts I've seen in a long while.

Brilliant !

Tom Love It!!!!

I posted a thought, but decided to remove.

[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 08-16-2008).]

Yayyyy! Go CASIO! Hell, someone's gotta root for the underdog

Tom,

Best post I've read this year!

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

About those crappy drums: I was told today that the drums are all new in the Tyros 3.

............I wonder if the kazoo will sound like the metal kind or the ones I made out of a comb and waxpaper as a kid. Good golly...............maybe it will have both!!!!!!! -charley

I will be very upset if it has the same plastic drums.

Originally posted by Tom Cavanaugh:

"It's the "Same old S***) just a different day."

You're right Tom. Same old 'Suit' just a different model number i.e. "3" instead of 2 or 1.

Now to be honest, having listened to the T3 demos again in a real quiet environment, I have re-evaluated my opinion of the Guitar and AC Piano demos and give them a general (not an enthusiastic, just a general) thumbs up. We have to remember though that these demos, as member "Ensnareyou" previously pointed out, were done most likely on Cubase 4 by Yamaha sequence programming experts, thus providing nuances and realism quite possibly NOT attainable by a real live person actually playing the keyboard. OTOH I could be wrong and the 'quality' i.e. (every nuance and tonal reproduction) on the demos might be able to be replicated on the keys themselves. Time will tell all but the 'general' rule of thumb is the factory demos apply methods of sound reproduction that are generally NOT fully available to the person playing the keyboard live i.e. "apart from a computer and a sophisticated Sequencer like e.g. - Cubase 4, Sonar, etc. Plus the ultra expensive and pristine recording hardware Yamaha has at its disposal used to record the demos."

Regarding the Drums, even though Yamaha is claiming the Drums are all "new", nowhere have they stated that they are "much improved" or even "improved" at all, over the Tyros2. Given the fact that the four demos we have so far on the T3 don't showcase these supposedly "new" Drums in a demonstrable way seems to suggest that Yamaha is trying to keep them "out of sight out of mind" of the public, perhaps because of their less than stellar nature?

PS: When I said a while back that I would be the first in line to buy a T3 if it indeed had 76 keys, I should have predicated my statement with "all things considered". In other words, = IF it had 'excellent' drum kits, IF it had a 'real' Sampler, IF it had a 'decent' Vocalizer, IF the majority of sounds were indeed up to snuff, etc., etc., etc. >> But since we know for certain that the T3 will only be made in the 61 key variety it will unfortunately not make it on to my next arranger short list anyway. And we can all thank Yamaha for that obvious missed opportunity and, in my opinion, error in judgement - to the roughly 50% of arranger players out there who would rather have a 76 key (or better) solution available to them and will have to look elsewhere for their totl arranger keyboard playing needs. I'm sure Yamaha is tickled pink about that prospect too, since they obviously showed no willingness to meet that viable market segment with a 76 key option.

Best,
Mike

Surely they wouldn't try to get away with that a 3rd time ? Would they ?



[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 08-17-2008).]

It simple beats me why anyone would think that ANY of the arranger manufacturers are going to move wholesale away from the position they are in now...

The T3 will be VERY similar to the T2. Any new Roland will be VERY similar to the E80. The PA2X Pro is VERY similar to the PA1Xpro... OK, the Audya MIGHT be a radical departure from the SD-1, but I doubt it. It's probably the SD-1 OS with some new stuff tacked on.

The way it goes is, unless the company is tanking in a bad way, completely redesigning and revamping the whole thing is going to alienate all the users that already love the current model, and be a toss-up whether it flies with new users. Those aren't good odds, IMO...

So, while most of make noise about wanting radically different stuff, truth is, we will probably spend more time whining about whatever our favorite feature that has been dropped was, than praising the new stuff! So, model changes tend to be incremental, no matter how hard we press them... They know us better than we know ourselves, I think

The only area I tend to disagree with is Yamaha's unwillingness to even TRY a 76. Most of us that express an interest in one of these are NOT asking that Yamaha drop the 61 S900's or T2's. We simply want them to ADD to the lineup, so no disruption to those that are already more than happy with the way things already are... It's frightening how defensive some members here get at the thought of a 76 Yamaha, but if it doesn't change their options at all, why are they so adamant that Yamaha not even TRY this segment of the market? It wouldn't affect them in the slightest. Dog in a manger, I guess...

But, whatever... I guess we shouldn't expect any kind of change at all, especially as how every manufacturer is going out of their way to keep things as close as possible to where they are now...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 08-17-2008).]

Diki, to be honest I think Yamaha's position on the 76er is in the ground. They tried it with the 9000 Pro, and boy oh boy I'm sure many remember the problems with that model and how fast the support dropped for it.

I think Yamaha is comfortable where they are... It would be great if they made a pro 76 arranger. Hell they do it with their pro synth line.., I can't see why they don't do it with the pro arranger line. The Tyros OS is stable..., it's just simply adding a few keys, but they won't budge.

Posted by Diki
Any new Roland will be VERY similar to the E80

Don’t bank on it

Bill

I can't imagine a board meeting where a potential market is deliberately ignored, simply because they failed at it once before with a COMPLETELY different type of attack..

The 9000Pro was a disaster even in a 61 form. It's failure was due entirely to the OS and hardware, and had NOTHING whatsoever to do with the number of keys on the damn thing..

If Yamaha can't se beyond this obvious fact, it is certainly cause to doubt their so-called intelligence!

All I'm asking for is a 76 version of what is already a best seller... I don't want a 'Pro' keyboard from Yamaha with vast changes from the T2 or S900. Far too much opportunity for them to screw it up, like they did before (they obviously have no idea what a 'pro' arranger is!)..! I simply want a 76 S900, at maybe just over the $2000 mark (maybe $500 more than the 61) with absolutely nothing else changed. All they would have to do is put the exact same electronics in a larger case with a cheap 76 action (hard to expect a good one from Yamaha at that price, even if their competition somehow manages it ).

This is as easy as it gets... Yamaha could easily do this with only a fraction of the costs of developing an entirely new 'pro' arranger, which is what they tried with the 9000Pro. So, they would not even be repeating the same mistake. A 76 of an existing arranger is a totally different thing than a ground-up brand new untested arranger.

I simply don't understand why so few see it this way, and are constantly trotting out the poor old 9000Pro as some kind of 'reason' they don't produce this keyboard...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 08-17-2008).]

Diki, many of us do see the logic in it and know there is no rocket science behind them just adding a few keys. Look at it like this. One thing that ALWAYS comes up with Yamaha keyboards and the players is the issue of weight. Hell some are to the point that the PSR-S900 is their weight limit. I think Yamaha should make a 76er, but man could you imagine all the bitching about weight.... The issue of weight (for some odd reason) has always been more of an issue for pro arranger players than pro synth player. People are lugging around Motif XS-8's everyday to mulitple gigs, and lugging around the 76 keys synths too....., but for some reason (in general) arranger players want much lighter boards.

Diki,
I couldn't help it...., I had to post this Yamaha Blast From The Past. Check out the sound demos.....
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,,CNTID%25253D2205%252526CTID%25253D,00.html#

Wow! That really is a blast from the past..

Those drums are unmistakably from a Yamaha totl arranger. The Tyros was a slight bump up in quality in my opinion and the T2 a slight bump more up in quality. >> If the T3 drums sound anything like the 9000PRO, T1, or T2 drums Yamaha can forget about referring to the T3 drums as "new". They may as well call them "re-hashed" instead.

Notice in the Clarinet demo the background Brush/Jazz Drum Kit. It seems Yamaha attempted to keep them way in the background at a lower than normal volume. But what I did hear of them was very similar sounding to the T1/T2 Brush/Jazz Drum kit in my opinion. Which is a bad sign, right off the bat, to their claim of all "new" Drums on the T3 in my opinion.

Let's face it, Yamaha's T3 gold mine is NOT America, Canada or even Asia, for that matter. Yamaha's T3 gold mine is in Europe plain and simple. And if our friends over the pond aren't too particular or judgemental in how they perceive a $4,500 keyboard's Drum Kits are suppose to sound (as far as quality goes), then Yamaha evidently will see no pressing need to put in stellar sounding Drum Kits in their new Flagship arranger - the innocuous T3. Innocuous, it seems, to the Europeans anyway.

But again, if they do rake in the dough with the T3 over in Europe, they will most likely have satisfied their 'status quo' in projected T3 sales, and apparently could care less how Americans, Canadians, or Asians feel towards the T3's less than stellar (in other words - not up to professional standard) Drum Kits sound like, if indeed, they turn out to be average - again. In other words, as long as they can please the majority of Europeans they will see themselves in Fat City with no real worries to speak of. >> I could have said: Americans, Canadians, and Asians be damned; but that would have been a little harsh, although, may very well be Yamaha's corporate perception of the situation. Hopefully not, for our sakes, right? And instead, we will find out that the T3 drums are indeed a big improvement over the T1/T2 drums. Time will tell all as they say.

We shall see, or rather "hear" for ourselves soon enough, I reckon. >> That is, if Yamaha gets with it and produces a demo or two that showcases some of the T3's Drum Kits. Again, we shall see what Yamaha will unfold in the next month or two or three as far as sound demos go... I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting in anticipation though. It's off my short list no matter what.

Yamaha's loss my gain I suppose. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img]

Best,
Mike


[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 08-17-2008).]

I don't think I've heard anything from an authoritative source that ever claimed the T3's drums were ALL new (your local dealer probably knows less than you do, for all his spouting off!).

No doubt SOME drums will change. A few new kits, at best. Hopefully, punchier and more dynamic. But expecting a wholesale change is sheer lunacy! That's what the Yamaha lovers LIKE (or they wouldn't have bought one!), and Yamaha aren't THAT stupid to completely change everything.

Sad thing is, Yamaha only have to change the sampler to something that could read Akai sample format, and you could have your fill of great sounding drums. But while it remains a closed format, and Yamaha do next to nothing to address the lack of available content for the format they have all to themselves, they lose customers to keyboards with punchier sounds.

I'm starting to question just how smart those guys actually are... First, the 76 phobia, and now the 'closed' sampler. It's almost as if they are saying 'Go away, all you pros! We don't want your money, it's much easier ripping off 'home' players'

Actually Mike the Tyros 2 sells better and more in the Asian market, then in Europe.

Bill

Very interesting Bill. I thought for sure Europe was the biggest market for high-end Yamaha arrangers. Could you provide some statistics that show Yamaha sells more totl arrangers in Asia than in Europe Bill? I always heard that Europe was Yamaha's gold mine when it comes to the likes of the T1/T2/T3, etc.

Here are all the countries contained in Asia:

Afghanistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Brunei, Burma (Myanmar), Cambodia, China, Georgia, Hong Kong, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, North Korea, South Korea, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Lebanon, Malaysia, Maldives, Mongolia, Nepal, Oman, Pakistan, Philippines, Qatar, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Syria, Taiwan, Tajikistan, Thailand, Turkey, Turkmenistan, United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, Yemen.

I would think only a handful would be interested in something like a Tyros3 but I could be wrong Bill. It would seem to me that most of those countries would relish a Korg over a Yamaha any day of the week because of Korg's propensity to include a wide range of Asian type sounds and the ability of Korg's arrangers to change tuning scales to those preferred and listened to in that part of the world. OTOH, Europe would tend to use many of the traditional tuning scales and/or traditional sounds in my opinion, and therefore the T3 would be more highly coveted in Europe. I realize that Yamaha probably sells a lot of T3's to their own Japanese people but is it the same T3 model with the same name that Yamaha ships over here to North America and to Europe? Would Yamaha still call it a Tyros3 for the ones they sell in Japan?? I tend to think it would have a special name or branding but (if they actually did sell it under a different name in Japan) it would be considered the same basic instrument I suppose with the same basic innards. But I digress...

So you say they sell more in Asia huh?

Statistics or some kind of proof to back up that statement would sure help in solving this puzzle if there are some stats available Bill. Thanks.

Best,
Mike

Hi Mike
Yamaha music education is massive in a lot of Asian countries (They teach from very young) on all sorts of Yamaha instruments including keyboards and Electones. (Yes they are still made, and like the keyboards they sell them by the truck load)

Another point to note is that in all the keyboard music completions around the world, most are dominated by Asian players.

Type Yamaha Music followed by the country (Not all countries are represented) into Google to see what’s out there. (This includes the Yamaha keyboards which replace a lot of the Western styles with Asian styles)

You think Yamaha is big in music, but you don’t realise just how big until you look all around the world. (Roland and Korg are just cottage industries in comparison)

Hope this helps in your quest.

Bill

I would still be interested in the stats on the TOTL arrangers. Let's face it, these things are voiced for Europe, in fact, YamahaUK have a strong part in styling and voicing them (remember Andy [The Insider], one of the main demo guys for it is from UK), and the ROM styles have barely a trace of Asian influence.

When Yamaha DO voice an arranger for the Asian market, they release a special model (S700-OR e.g.), so that definitely seems to indicate the Tyros is firmly and squarely aimed at the European market (and a rag thrown to us poor US players!). There CERTAINLY isn't a T2-OR, now is there...?

Just because Yamaha are strong in the music education field does not in any way equate to arranger sales in a demographic where they don't actually produce a keyboard for that area's music...

Actually Diki the reason Yamaha music is so big and Brand loyalty is so great, is because of the Yamaha music education system.
If you remember in the 70s Yamaha were a joke in the music industry both here (Europe) and in the US, however when they introduced their music schools, parents started buying Yamaha’s to match what their kids were learning on in the schools, then of course they moved onto the parents, showing them that they as well as their kids could learn to play, which meant even bigger model sales.
All this culminated in the 80s when the sales of Yamaha instruments was such that most of the competition from Europe and the US was wiped out, leaving only the really big companies, (Like Lowery) and small premium niche market manufactures (Like Wersi) still in business.
Only Technics offered any real competition. (And that was because they introduced the Technics Music Academy)
The tactic was not new, as Yamaha had already done this successfully in the Asian markets.
Whether you like Yamaha or not, their marketing, sales and brand loyalty is unmatched by any other, no matter where in the world you go.

Bill

Sorry, Bill, but Yamaha were no joke in the industry, at least not the pro one! Maybe in the organ community..?

Ever heard of the CS-80? Ever heard of the CP-70?

Yeah, I know... Jokes

I agree with you, Bill. I still think the VIMA concept is gonna creep into arrangers soon. Not that I'm thrilled or supporting the idea, it's just that the concept is still alive in the Roland camp. Besides, almost everyone is adding mp3, wav and other play features to their arrangers now.

If you look at the VIMA concept, other than the karaoke features, it's OS is almost identical to a current Roland arranger...

There are no multipads, there is no sampler, there is the same number of intros, endings, variations and fills, the voices sound the same... It's a great big yawn.

I have simply no idea why this concept doesn't just bring a laugh to us all here... It's just a revamped KR series, with some karaoke bells and whistles. BTW, it isn't exactly setting the market on fire, either, so only a suicidal Roland would take this as a vision of the future (wouldn't put it past them, though... they do seem to be trying hard to play Russian Roulette with six bullets )

Only a home organ player could love this boondoggle, and I have a feeling it's because they seem to prize furniture over musical instruments It's big enough, for sure!

The karaoke stuff, or at least, MP3 players, have ALREADY been integrated into current Roland arranger OS... V2 for the E80 adds this feature almost for free. It doesn't require a wholesale shift in function, even if it is early days and could use several improvements (tempo and pitch change, for sure!).

Hi Diki
Yes, I wasn’t talking about the pro market, but the keyboard/organ market, which is the segment arranger’s fall into, and which I think Mike was actually referring too.

Bill

Maybe15 years ago or more, arrangers fell into the keyboard/organ category, but at least since my G800 (some would say earlier than that, for sure) these things have been ANYTHING but in those categories.

However, this hasn't stopped the manufacturers from still trying to market them that way, which is perhaps where the general malaise is coming from. Apart from certain organ derived arrangers, these things are about as far from that old school approach as you can probably get, capable of sounding pretty darn contemporary. But you still see them primarily in mom and pop organ and piano stores, where the only customers are leftovers from the sixties home organ period.

And because a few key sounds and OS features are left off (possibly deliberately, but little arranger strategy seems deliberate in my opinion, more just bumbling around ) they still don't attract the younger player, leaving some VERY capable keyboards in this hell-hole between potential and market.

We have to face it, but we refugees from the sixties and seventies are not enough to keep this segment of the keyboard industry vital by ourselves. There just aren't enough of us compared to WS users. This keeps prices high, and innovation and competition low.

IMO, the manufacturers have to start adding WS loopstation features and sounds to modern arrangers WITHOUT dropping the old school stuff, and possibly alienating us old farts too It's a great system of control, even for hiphop stuff, but needs the sounds and OS brought forward a decade or so. Without attracting more youngsters to the instrument, it's going to go the way of the 'home organ'.

Even if Yamaha DO train up the youngsters, trust me, at least in the Western part of the world, as soon as they DO learn to play, they drop these things like hotcakes and head over to the WS world (sales figures don't lie )

Be honest, gents (and ladies)... is there ANYTHING in that new T3 teaser that would make anyone under 30 listen and go 'I sure could use one of those!'? THAT'S the demographic that is driving WS sales and development. Not fans of 20's jazz, or Irish new age...

Possibly in more traditional music parts of the world, this Music School approach might work, but can anyone of you take a young kid into a mom and pop music store, and get him interested in a keyboard primarily set up for latin and bigband stuff? As soon as you give him the money for a keyboard of his own, he's off to Motif-land! They don't care if an arranger is easier to operate, they care that it sounds like their grandparent's home keyboard!

And not in a good way!

Yamaha MIGHT have started out in the home keyboard market as a joke, but they (and the entire industry, don't get me wrong, this is NOT a Yamaha bash!) are rapidly returning to being a joke. You can't continue to grow and innovate when you are selling to a dwindling market. None of us are getting any younger, and probably the average age on this forum is in the upper fifties to sixties, I would hazard a guess. That, gents, is not a good sign...

For the same price as a TOTL arranger from the Big 3, you can buy a WS with audio multitrack recording, advanced looping capabilities, contemporary sounds to die for (and most of the old school stuff too), effects capabilities better than most studios of twenty years ago, and bult like a Mercedes, with a georgeous 88 note piano keyboard. For way less you can get a Mercedes with a 61

Time for the arranger to make the great leap forward without adding the cost and complexity of a computer based 'open' system. Or we will ALL soon be in Wersi-land, with overpriced, over complex, dated sounding keyboards with next to no distribution, or cheap Wal-Mart toy arrangers meant for the kiddies.

Audya is going to be around $5500 How is this supposed to advance the industry..? T3 what, around $4500? The industry has got it all backwards... Appeal is supposed to GROW, and prices are supposed to FALL. Not the other way around!

Diki,
I've been screaming for years about how the keyboard companies need to bring today's arrangers..., well simply into "today". Sure they got great acoustic sounds on them today.., and IMO of the top 3 Korg is the closest to a synth/workstation than all of them as their voice editing (onboard) is great, but to date NOT ONE arranger pulls of more modern styles of music and does it really well.

They've always voiced these keyboards for the older crowd. Then Yamaha goes and does something that had HUGE sales and dropped the ball with it (and on purpose IMO). The original Yamaha DJX was out of this world compared to the arrangers out at the time. It wasn't a top end arranger, but the styles on that board were as current as they get! That board had real-time sound control, dirty sampler, and a ribbon controller.

Yamaha was really going in the right direction with it, then just completey dropped the ball and IMO with all intention shot the project dead. The more current version of the DJX is the Yamaha MM6 (an overpriced piece of crap too).., they call this thing a synth and it doesn't even have a portamento.

I think Korg is probably the leader at trying to attract the younger crowds to the pro and semi pro arranger market. Their arrangers have great sounds, (IMO) more live and up to date styles, and the Korg arrangers offer more "WorkStation" features as well such as indepth synth editing, ect.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-20-2008).]

More pictures
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/018045.html


Bill

Diki, you forgot to mention the DX7!

That keyboard started the digital revolution.