Is it bothering anyone else here how keyboard makers are suddenly deciding that common features on both arrangers and synth/workstations aren't important anymore, and how they're dropping some basic features to lure in more buyers for other products of theirs..???

One thing that really bites my backside is how suddenly basic midi jacks are no longer important on some arranger keyboards, and the USB jacks they've added are really a joke in terms of midi control. I've been considering an inexpensive arranger to add to my synths and I have a few in line. One of the "so called affordable" arrangers from Yamaha I've been looking at is the PSR-S500. I can't for the life of me swallow that Yamaha has dropped basic midi jacks on a $700 arranger keyboard, and given it a USB-Host (that's quite limited). Even Roland's E-09 has midi jacks. I would assume that Yamaha has grown tired of musicians buying their lower end arrangers for the secondary use as a midi keyboard. Dropping the midi jacks means buyers now have to buy the more expensive models just to get them....

Yammie also did something VERY dirty with the Yamaha Motif XS. Someone or some team must have brain-stormed on this one for a while. They somehow had a team decide that "step sequencing/recording" is no longer a needed feature on a full blown synth workstation! They got very dirty on this one. Yamaha has dropped this feature (which is a very commonly used feature on workstations especically for the styles of music synths thrive at which is electronica), and when this issue has been brought up a Yamaha rep has always so kindly said "use the included seq software" that ships with the Motif. They've taken a very used feature and are using that to drive the "upgrade sales" of their seq software program. Why in the hell should a Motif XS user have to hook up to a software seq just to get freakin step recording... It's not just Yamaha. Even the all mighty Kurzweil has seen this effect. I read about this on another forum too. I never thought I'd see the day that a Kurzweil-a maker who has for years been known as one of the leading synths for the program junky..., has dropped step seq/recording on the new PC3X.

I'm just tired of the makers dropping features people DO USE on keyboards in order to sell their more expensive line. Sorry, but this has been bothering me lately. I'm going nuts trying to find the right arranger to add to my setup, but it's not going to be used as a main keyboard, but I still want it to have freakin MIDI jacks and not some crippled USB midi.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-05-2008).]

Squeak,
Don't you see midi jacks on the same level as other dinasaur features like floppy drives? I'm sure the industry is all behind using a faster, more convienient jack that has "in & out" in the same jack.
Most kbs dropped the floppys, Yamaha tried the Smart Media card - now history too. As Mt Zimmermann said: "The times, they are a-changin'"

I don;t see it as stripping down as much as upgrading.

I see it as a step backwards because their has not been a drop in the number of people who use one keyboard to control another. Sure.., for computer use I see USB as a great thing, but to just say the hell with all those people who used these keyboards to control another really gets at me I guess. It was not at all uncommon for people to buy lower end units for dual purposes. One for an inexpensive "go to board for that quick fix', and the other was for midi control.

It's not just controlling other keyboards either. It's not uncommon for people to use things such as drum machines and other gear that has standard midi jacks. I just find it crazy that a $700 keyboard doesn't have basic midi jacks.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-05-2008).]

$700.00 in todays world aint nothing....just a few tanks of gas, It just cost me $50.00 to go see the X-files in the movies tonight for 2 .....features will always be added & takin away on each model....I agree with Uncle Dave for sure.

Don't take my floppy from me..still the fastest way to swap a file..

Thankfully ..my G70 has it all..Floppy, card, USB for midi and data,,,and Midi in, out and thru...

These are not outdated if they are usable..and they are ..every day...

Same with laptops..I made sure I got a floppy drive..firewire , USB (3), PCMCIA slot, and a Pentium 4...Obsolete? Not in my world..

It's funny how some consider a feature "they don't use" to be obsolete. No way are standard midi jacks becoming obsolete. Tons of gear today still includes standard midi jacks.

People want to think some features are obsolete just because the maker of the item has deemed it obsolete, yet in reality they've just found another way to make you buy a higher end model.

Sure.., I can see floppies, and even smart media cards becoming obsolete, but standard midi..., no FREAKING way!

I'm with Fran on this.... Funny how floppies are obsolete, yet they're still on shelves, and I haven't read about any floppy disk shortages. Finding smart media cards in stores is another thing though-as most of those have to be purchased online.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-05-2008).]

The new Fantom G has step recording...

Best,
Mike

Ok..., where's the logic in this..? If standard midi jacks are so obsolete and outdated then why are all the mid and upper end keyboards still being made with them The answer is simple...., they're not obsolete, they're still very much alive. Like I said..., it's not uncommon for people to buy lower end models for the dual purpose of a practice board (scratch pad if you will), and for it to serve as a means of midi control.

Yeah, I know the Fantom G has step recording.., but my Fantom X is still very capable of bringing a smile to my face in the sequencing department. Personally I'm not too thrilled with the new sound-set of the G.

Squeak, for what its worth I agree with you. It is still de rigeur for midi transmission to use MIDI din jacks. And as far as I know it is still the ONLY way of direct keyboard to keyboard communication (without a PC in between controlling at least one of them).

Sadly, or rather expectedly, I reckon Yamaha are doing it a) because its a low end keyboard and as such the users are also likely to be "low end" and they can save a few dollars on construction costs and/or
b) deliberately leaving them off to force the purchase of the "next" model which does have them.

I cannot put MIDI jacks and floppies on the same page as they are two different things in my view. Floppies have been for all intents replaced as a technology many times over. They are ridiculously slow, unreliable and a very dated method of data transfer. Despite protests to the contrary!!

Whereas MIDI jacks are a vital ongoing harware connection, much the same as an audio jack. And until some company installs a host and device socket + the software for two keyboards to talk directly with each other, then MIDI sockets are going to be around for a long while yet. The omission on the keyboard you mention Squeak is, in my view, entirely commercial.

Dennis



[This message has been edited by miden (edited 08-05-2008).]

This may be encouraging to all you MIDI enthusiasts out there..

MIDI Manufacturers Investigate New HD Protocol

January, 2008

For the third year in a row, dozens of MIDI hardware and software manufacturers gathered at the Marriott in Anaheim CA, in conjunction with the Winter NAMM Show, to plan a new High Definition protocol for musical instruments.

"MIDI has worked fantastically for more than 25 years, but with today's computers and embedded microprocessors we can now do much more than MIDI was originally designed to do", said MMA President and CEO Tom White. "This new protocol will encourage market growth through more expressive products, improved ease of use, and new and innovative applications. Plus new HD devices and software will be compatible with all of the great MIDI hardware and software that already exists."

This proposed update increases the number of MIDI Channels and Controllers, and provides greater resolution in data values for all of the current MIDI 1.0 messages. Moreover, the HD functions are all accomplished with single messages, as opposed to compound messages in MIDI 1.0, which means using and editing the new messages will be far easier for both developers and users. The HD protocol also supports the creation of entirely new messages that were not practical with the MIDI 1.0 protocol.

"At this point HD-MIDI is still under development, but we've seen a lot of interest in this from both hardware and software developers," said White. "Our policy is not to discuss MMA Specifications publicly until they're officially adopted, but in this case we want to make sure that all qualified companies have the opportunity to participate before the first version is published later this year."

The original MIDI 1.0 Specification, developed in 1983, has been the foundation for interoperability of digital musical instruments for 25 years. The initial "MIDI 1.0 Specification" contained the rules for remote control of keyboard devices, but over the years additional specifications were developed for file exchange, sound exchange, synthesizer design, and new applications such as stage lighting and ring-tones. Today the term "MIDI" applies to the wide variety of file formats, applications, and device specifications defined by the MIDI Manufacturers Association.

The MIDI Manufacturers Association is an industry non-profit organization that is responsible for maintaining and extending MIDI. Formed in 1985 by the original developers of the MIDI 1.0 Specification, the MMA provides a forum where companies using MIDI can cooperate and collaborate to make their equipment interoperable.

Best,
Mike

While I understand the times must move on I personally would not consider buying a keyboard without standard MIDI connections. I use too much older gear Roland JX8P, Roland JV80, Waldorf Pulse, Yamaha TX802 and Yamaha SY77 that I like to be able to trigger from a master keyboard. Sure I don't often use some of these synths often in a live situation away from a computer .... but I don't want the decision of which I can still use without a computer taken away from me.

I'll happily pay the extra $25 bucks it costs the manufacturer ( and probably not even that ) to include these on their keyboards. I'm all for including new MIDI connections in addition to the old ... but I still want gear to be compatible with all the MIDI gear that has come before.

Yep, that gets a +1 from me.

The other big problem that people overlook is that MIDI over USB is NOT a standard that has been defined by the MIDI Manufacturers Association. Devices with USB MIDI can only be used with a computer that is running that manufacturer's device driver that understands how MIDI data is to be received and transmitted over the USB connection. Even if all MIDI gear came equipped with USB MIDI ports you could not plug a Roland USB connection into a Yamaha USB connection. While the cable would fit neither keyboard would understand the other. So MIDI communication between keyboards without a computer would become a thing of the past .... that would be very very bad and is completely against the whole point of establishing a MIDI standard in the very beginning.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 08-06-2008).]

Excellent points Nigel! I still feel it's a marketing thing with the lower end models to move those buyers (who were buying the lower end units for dual purposes) to the mid and higher end models.

It's also not just keyboards that have midi jacks, but tons of other gear use standard midi jacks as well. Here's another thing that doesn't make sense. The Yamaha MM6 (which is also an arranger keyboard) sells for $100 less than the S-500 and the MM6 has midi jacks (and) a USB midi interface.

I agree Nigel. From the perspective of the live playing professionals or home players here who do not desire to send midi out to or from secondary tone generators or other external midi gear withoout having to go through a computer, probably not a big deal at all.

From the perspective of the rest of us, or more accurately, at least in my way of working, lack of standard midi ports is unacceptable, and I won't be needing any board that doesn't have it.

In my situation, it doesn't work out at all, not only because I have older keyboards without usb ports, but mainly BECAUSE I use a computer much of the time. I have both the Tyros 2 and Motif ES. Neither of my primary music computers can recognize both sets of the Yamaha usb midi drivers at the same time, meaning that without standard midi ports I could not, for example, use the ES as a controller for One Man Band while I use the T2 as a tone generator. I can pull this off only because my computers have soundcards that include standard midi in and out jacks. The T2 does not work with the ES usb midi drivers, and vice versa, and the drivers conflict with one another on every computer I have tried them on ( several ).

AJ

I believe that the issue comes about because probably the vast majority of low end arranger users don't even have a second keyboard to hook it to (they are not buying the BOTL if they can afford or need the TOTL!), and due to the primitive MIDI capabilities of these arrangers, you couldn't do very much of any use with them even if there WERE MIDI ports.

These things are designed, marketed, and intended to be used as the sole keyboard in a 'home' environment, for personal entertainment purposes, NOT as one of many devices in a 'pro' gigging rig...

But my main peeve remains that, although higher end arrangers DO have MIDI ports, their OS's are VERY poorly designed for the purposes that those MIDI ports imply... The control of external gear, or the ability to be controlled by the same.

Let's look at the two main scenarios that having MIDI ports might encourage you to try...

First is using a module, as an extension to the tone palette of your arranger. What we are going to want to do here is be able to send ANY arranger part, whether keyboard, style or SMF out to the module, have the master arranger select the tones in that module, while at the same time routing what needs to be played internally to it's normal destination. Few (if any) can manage this without you having to jump through hoops to achieve it, as basic as this is. Most of the time, you end up having to mess with the module as well, to set it up to receive some parts, whilst ignoring others, or other such dumb shenanigans. A remote is supposed to be just that... Remote. You are not supposed to have to touch it at all (f the master is designed properly)

And secondly... what's the thing most ARRANGER players would like to do with MIDI? Yep, that's right... Hook up two arrangers, and combine them into one über-arranger, with the strength of both combined.

This one, a no-brainer in my book, is the one thing they seem to go completely out of their way to ensure NEVER happens. The majority of even TOTL arrangers do not have codes to synchronize Fill selection, Variation selection, Breaks, Style selection, part mutes, even if you CAN hook them together and have them start and stop at the correct time And those that do, they are completely proprietary codes, with no standardization between manufacturers.

So, once again, despite those magical MIDI jacks actually being on the arranger, you can't do with them the most obvious things that one would consider they are there for...

None of this will change, until the arranger community as a whole starts to grumble, grouse and bitch and moan as often as you can, in as many places as you can, and show the manufacturers that putting these capabilities into an arranger would be worth their while... You might, for instance, point out to them that a feature designed specifically to hook two arrangers together is going to result in the sale of TWO ARRANGERS, not one!

And those that manufacture modules as well as arrangers (most of them) would benefit from increased module sales IF ONLY WE COULD USE THEM!

Beats me how they don't see these obvious facts, it really does...

I still don't see the logic in them not having midi jacks on the S-500, but having them on the MM6 though. These are both arrangers (while one may not have the full style sections.., it's still an auto accomp keyboard), but Yamaha at least gave the MM6 midi jacks... How about this for a missing basic feature. Yamaha claims the MM6 to be a "synth" yet the MM6 is missing ONE very important feature found on a synth.. The MM6 has NO PORTAMENTO!!!!

I had considered the MM6 just for some cheap Motif sounds, a bang around board, and so on, but when I found out it had no portamento, and even it's onboard midi was limited--I said the hell with that and bought the Motif ES6 (before they were all sold out).

Perhaps, and Squeak I know this is nto a lot to do with the lack of midi ports, but Diki's post got me thinking....

Maybe as a community, arranger players can lobby the Midi Manufacturers Association (MMA) to have them come up with a industry wide specification for the communication between arrangers specifically.

Actually I might start this as a new thread, it is an important issue for all of us I think.

Dennis