You did get one right?

managed to transfer styles from tyros?

Wow, a thread just for me? I'm honored!

Yes, I did get a Pa2x, largely on an experimental basis. I know that Yamaha is coming out with a T3 in a few months, but everyone who I speak to seems to think that Yamaha will never change their sound, so I decided to try the Korg. If Yamaha does come out with a keyboard that packs some punch in its sound, I'll be glad to change back.

So what do I think of the Korg? It's a different animal to the Yamaha. I was extremely disappointed in the beginning because everything seemed so backward. In the end I had no choice but to read the manual cover to cover and I've found that the Korg has some amazing advantages over Yamaha just like Yamaha has some over Korg.

Here's a quick observation at the risk of offending everyone:

Build:
Yamaha wins hands down. The buttons are large and well lit. The keyboard is built well and comes with a full color large screen. Korg has none of that.

Ease of use:
Yamaha wins handily here. Yamaha puts the important buttons on the panel; on Korg they are in the system. It's not easy to copy and paste on the Korg, applying effects is a nightmare, and the list goes on. However Korg has many more intricate features that a professional would use which is especially noticeable in style creation. However they also have an abnormally unnecessary intricate file system which is very limiting.

Sound:
Overall Yamaha has a good sound if you're recording a CD. Korg is much better if you're using a sub and looking to move a dance floor. Although on the spec sheet Korg has less sounds than Yamaha, it really has much, much more. Yamaha says they have more than a thousand voices, but they hide them all in XG and GM folders because they're not good enough. Korg has just under a thousand voices, but they are mostly usable and easily accessible. It's a pleasure to see that Korg has over ten different, great sounding pianos, whereas Yamaha has only one. The only think I miss from the Yamaha is the brass and saxes. Drums, pianos, bass, synths, Trumpets, accordions, acoustic guitars, Korg wins. Sax, Brass, flutes, and distortion guitars Yamaha wins. However the drums alone is a very serious reason to think about dumping Yamaha. Although I hear they will change it on the T3, based on the depressing samples they've put out so far I'm not convinced they will be any better.

Style Creation:
Korg wins hands down. It is much easier to make styles on the Korg, you have many more options, and they have an AMAZING guitar mode for recording guitars that would make any Yamaha owner salivate. Yamaha SA is a joke compared to Korg Guitar mode. Some of the great options include importing styles from a MIDI file, and being able to make up to 6 different variations per variation based on the kind of chord you're playing. That gives you up to 24 variation in a single style if you're into that kind of thing.

Space:
I think its important to note that Korg has 20MB of user flash memory, and Yamaha has only 3MB. This 3MB is largely responsible for my lack of creativity lately on the Yamaha, because I have no room to store my new stuff anyway and saving to and accessing from the Harddrive takes long and is a pain in the neck. That said, on Korg you only have around 400 spaces for custom styles; on Yamaha there is no limit.

Voice Harmony:
Korg uses the TC Helicon which works, and works well. Yamaha uses I don't know what, and it doesn't work.

Styles:
I haven't really listened to the Korg styles, I've been too busy making my own. But overall they are much simpler, but much more powerful. However the Korg has a few mess ups. The fill ins are not smooth, and moving from variation to variation is a bit screwed up too as it doesn't go to the first measure of the new variation.

Registrations:
Korg has something called performances which kind of works like a registration setting, only that registration settings are much easier and more practical to use. On Yamaha, you only save to a registration what you want. On Korg you save the whole freaking keyboard and then have to navigate through a truckload of menus to lock the things you don't want - and those locks apply to all performances. On Yamaha you only program the things you want, and if you want to freeze even some of those things, you've got an easily programmable freeze button right on the panel.

Overall:
Both Korg and Yamaha have advantages and disadvantages. Although I'm trying the Korg for now, I'm just as disappointed with them as I am with Yamaha. Both companies hate the word "change". They keep making new keyboards with the same problems as the previous models. For example, Yamaha still hasn't created a normal drum kit, and Korg still hasn't worked out how to stop scratching its right ear with its right foot. And that screen on the Korg? That's plain embarrassing.

Well, that covers the basics...

Chony

[This message has been edited by chony (edited 08-04-2008).]

Hi Chony
Good to see an honest personal review. (Others will probably disagree as their personal preferences are different, but those with similar preferences will have similar feelings)
I must admit though I am surprised you place the build of the Yamaha above the Korg, as I myself have always found the Korgs to be a much more robust feeling keyboard. (I suspect however it may be ergonomics that you are talking about rather then build)
Hope you continue to enjoy your Korg, and can get round any of the idiosyncrasies you find. (Don’t forget that if you get the chance, also try Roland, Ketron, Wersi, Lionstracs, Bohm etc, as you may find one of these gives you the best of both Yamaha and Korg)
Isn’t it great to have so much choice?
Regards

Bill

I've never met a guy with a Korg who didn't have a broken button or key. Even in the local GC the Korg has a broken key.

I would try LIONTRACS, but they're not a serious company. They were happy to answer some of my questions, but as soon as I started asking where I could try one, they stopped returning my emails... I don't even think they have one to demo in the US.

Wow Chony thank you for the HONEST & Very informative review. Reading your comments only emphasizes that each company has the pros & cons, strengths & weaknesses & you have to pick & choose what is better for YOUR Needs in an arranger for sure. I do agree with many of your assessments having owned & performed with both Korg & Yamaha myself eg: the Korg file system was very annoying for me also, too many steps........personal tolerance & comfort requirements change with each player. We're getting better with each offering, lets hope the next few years brings us closer to perfect as possible.....meanwhile keep us posted on your progress we all learn from each other. Personally I pretty much know what Tyros 3 is bringing next to the table.....its the next TOTL Roland arranger that has me curious & hoping that some of my needs are addressed.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-05-2008).]

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-05-2008).]

Chony, thanks for that candid review. I agree I love and hate at the same time any arranger I've owned. That includes Yamaha, Korg and Roland. It's the nature of the beast. As a suggestion if you haven't already experimented with "Songbook" on the PA2xPro you may want to. I find it a very easy to use tool and prefer it to Yamaha registrations. I'm anxious to see what Yamaha is offering in Tryos 3 too.

Best of luck with the PA2x.

Hi Chony,

Korg's Screen is color, you might want to check your contrast setting.

Great review Chony

As an extremely happy PA800 owner, I must agree with Steve that there is nothing close to the SONGBOOK feature of the Korg - I'd be lost without it. Live play is so easy.

The Korg fills are not perfect, but they are so over-the-top vs anything else, I happily work around, or just bypass the few trouble areas. And the toggle feature of having an ending/intro repeatedly flash, is such a useful feature.

If Yamaha addresses their drums, it would be a good move. But I don't think that's so easy a task, considering the unbelievable instruments and imaginative nuances that make up a style in the 800. It's not just about the lively drums.

However, I still get nervous about the whole save/load concept in the Korg, but hear it might be addressed with the new OS forthcoming.

You have now

I also owned a PA1x for ages, not even the hint of a problem. And this is probably probably the case for most owners.

I don't mind your honest review, even though some of the comments were spurious, as I accept it is your opinion only.

However making a sweeping generalisation that you have never met a Korg owner without a broken button is a bit too much for me to accept without comment.

I have owned a PA1x before the PA2x and gigged very heavily with it, and not even the hint of a problem. And I daresay this is true of most users on the korg forums as well.

It DOES semm to be an issue with some players though, who maybe think they can bash the crap out of a button and expect it to last forever??

Looking at some of the YouTube videos going around these players certainly do put new meaning into the term "punch in-punch out"!

Just as an added comment I have also owned the tyros and the psr3000, SD1+ and Roland V76. As for build quality, nothing, and I mean NOTHING touches the Rolands and Korgs, they are both built like tanks.

Dennis

OOPS, The "built like tanks" comment is regarding the PA2xPRo, not the PA800 which is very similar to the Tyros in build. Thought I'd better clarify that.


[This message has been edited by miden (edited 08-05-2008).]

I have to agree with Dennis and Abacus regarding build quality. I can't imagine anyone thinking Yamaha's arranger build quality exceeds Korg's although Chony is an exception I'm sure. I've also never had a broken button, switch, key, or any other part on any Korg keyboard I've owned. I doubt my experience with Korg is an exception.

I've owned many Korg's and many Yamaha's and with the exception of my vintage CS60 and 9000 Pro which were tanks, I think Yamaha's general build quality isn't equal to other manufacturers (except the Motif and Clavinova line which seem reasonably well built). Yamaha's arrangers are of particularly cheap build quality in my opinion especially when compared to the build quality of my Wersi. The only keyboard I saw come close in build quality to Wersi was the Korg Oasys which I also owned but subsequently sold due to lack of software updates.

I realize many people on this forum couldn't care less about a manufacturer using cheap plastic and lackluster parts but I prefer quality and will gladly pay more for that. If I wanted a toy keyboard I'd shop at Toys R Us.

[This message has been edited by Ensnareyou (edited 08-05-2008).]

Great review, very detailed. Are the PA2X styles the same as the PA800? I tried the PA800 and I like it. I was looking to replace my PA60, but the latin styles were to simular to the PA60, so I passed. But good luck with yours.

I find it VERY hard to adjust my button pushing from the general force I am using to play the keyboard... If I am playing a gentle ballad, no problem. But if I am smacking the living daylights out of some funky clav part, or pounding a rock piano part, rushing over to a button, and then delivering the gentlest of taps, and rushing back to pound again is VERY tricky.

So, I expect arranger buttons to be durable. Any manufacturer that expects us to baby them is counting on plenty of extra income from service sales after the warranty period runs out!

This is one reason why I consider multi-button footswitches SO essential. Plus, of course, your LH (or RH!) can just concentrate on playing! So far, after over three years of heavy use, not the slightest trace of a problem with my G70's buttons... The Triton is holding up well too (are they the same buttons as PA2Xpro?).

I am still curious as to why the fills issue hasn't been definitively investigated and corrected, yet, on Korg's. The thought of having to make playing compromises to get fills to work seems a bit primitive. I realize it is only some of them, but surely this should be a clue as to exactly what it is that's at fault? Any clues?

One more question about PA2Xpros.... You can purchase software that adds the Karma engine abilities to Triton's by using a laptop. Has anyone tried this on a PA2Xpro (or PA1Xpro)? I understand it is supposed to be the same engine...

Hi Chony,
might be easily fixed.
In Record Mode
Scroll to " fill "
Go to Record Cue 2 (Tab)
& choose 1 of 3 options for triggering fill.
best wishes
Rikki
BTW did you get my reply to the email you sent via Korg forums. I found out they sometimes go astray.??

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chony:
[B]

However the Korg has a few mess ups. The fill ins are not smooth, and moving from variation to variation is a bit screwed up too as it doesn't go to the first measure of the new variation.

I use no pedals whatsoever just another hindrance to my playing style & I never had a button problem...its all in the touch.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-05-2008).]

Chony, I'm really scratchin' my head about this review.

Some of the items I agree with, but some others are just puzzling.

The Pa2xpro is built like a tank...It runs circles around the Tyros2 build quality, which I owned. The buttons are perfect?

Also, the color screen on the Pa2xpro is awesome; clear, sharp and that tilt motor is amazing. I just don't get what you don't like? Maybe you can be more specific?

That 76 keybed is amazing.



------------------
Al Giordano
Visit us at ARRANGER WORLD! http://www.arrangerworld.com

Korg Pa2xpro, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland TD-12 Vdrums, Roland SPD-S.

Now this is an intersting bit of news..I had not heard that, but you can bet London to a Brick, I will do my best to find out!!

I suspect it won't, worse luck, because whilst it shares the same engine in many respects, it DOES have different architecture. BUT still worth investigating nonetheless!!

As for the fills, yes its not all that good that Korg have essentially left them alone through all the updates, but as the problem ones are few and far between, I, and I suspect like many others, don't find it all that much of an issue.

I guess to give an analogy, its like the change thing you mentioned on the G70 where you go from full keyboard to part within a style and it glitches, or something like that, I cannot remember exactly..... You found a way around it so whilst its still there, it becomes a non-issue for you. Same for us.

Dennis

Actually, Dennis, if I'm guessing the right design flaw (it's one of my pet peeves), it's that the ACC (but not the ABASS and ADRMS) get cut off when you go from different types of chord recognition. I like to play my vocal backing in Pianostyle, and do the solos in regular recognition (I know, I know, I should do the whole thing in Pianostyle ) and when I switch between them, whoops! There go the ACC parts

And sadly, there is NO workaround... it happens every time you do it. Only workaround is to not do it (or have to do it by hand extremely accurately, just when you are usually playing your a$$ off, too!).

So I can assure you, it's not a non issue! I do my level best to keep this one front and center on the Roland forums, as it was NOT the behavior of the G1000, so not a tried and trusted system and possibly correctable.

Now, perhaps few do the recognition type thing in their playing, so this flaw hasn't exactly bugged a lot of people, over here. But I would have thought a timing issue with fills is something you do all the time. So, were I to have a Korg, and was 'enduring' this on a daily basis, I sure would be trying more vocally for a 'fix'.

While still loving my G70, and still convinced that, FOR ME , it's still the current best choice, I have never shirked away from exposing what flaws exist in it, as publicly as possible, in the belief that manufacturers will work harder to correct widely known problems than un-complained about and concealed flaws. And experience through the two major revisions to the G70 OS have persuaded that sometimes, they actually DO SOMETHING about things!

And sometimes they don't

But you got to keep trying... Korg have another new OS coming out, with talk about new capabilities. But who knows? Maybe if enough of you HAVE complained loudly enough, the issue might be fixed on the new OS

I hope they have...

Yep THATS the one Sorry my bad, that is most definitely an issue, would be for me too.. Somehow I got it into my head that you had a workaround for it. But I can see how it would be very annoying and one Roland should have fixed soon as, after it was discovered.!!!

As for the OS release, I and a lot of of other korgies are finding the wait very trying!!

Dennis

Sorry, I know Im rambling a bit, but I just had another thought on this upgrade and in a similar vein to whether the fills issue will be addressed (personally, I don't think so)..

The biggest worry, well for me, is that whilst Korg say it is a huge upgrade, it might not be for me, or for other users depending on how they use it.

If you don't use the features they are fixing/implementing then its a bit of a ho-hum affair. So whilst it is exciting, the excitement is tempered with a bit of caution!!

Dennis

A few people were taken aback that I said the Yamaha build was better.

To tell you the truth I was thinking more in terms of design not build when I wrote that. You're right that the Pa2x is built like a tank. However the Yamaha buttons and screen are way more useful than Korg. A simple glance at the Yamaha keyboard tells you all you need to know, whereas on Korg you have to squint and also check your main screen.

And the Korg screen might be color, but not "full color". The color is completely washed out and doesn't compare with Yamaha which although not exactly a like a laptop screen, is far more vibrant, not to mention double the size.

Got to agree with you, Dennis, on that one... Roland have introduced several new, unasked for capabilities to new OS's for their arrangers, but at the same time ignored user pleas for more basic operational fixes. Makes you aware that probably, the marketing division has more influence with the R&D guys than the users..

I guess, especially for G70 users, the worst thing is that there appeared to be SUCH a desire on Roland's part to get what was initially such a poorly thought out OS (it's a great design, but some of the details were half-brained, for sure!), and two major OS revisions later, much of what was wrong has been eradicated. But there are a couple of clunkers out there still unfixed, and some of the new additions have operational aspects that could be made better, but the main thrust of each OS update has been the release of new features, which, in Guitar Mode's case especially, are of little use (and great design complexity) and must have monopolized much of the R&D team's attention.

Fix the basics first, add new capabilities later.... That's how at least I would prioritize things

So, anyway, amidst all the new features you get in OS2 for the PA2Xpro, I hope that Korg pay attention to the long-unfixed fills issue. Who knows, maybe they can finally get around to offering as many fills as their competition as well, rather than the paltry three (or two and a break/fill usually) that they currently support...

Diki, it's a big amen to that..

I reckon Roland and Korg must be similar, in that when releasing OS updates, I think there is more an eye on attracting new buyers, rather than fixing old stuff.

Unless there is a veritable avalanche of complaints registered, which can work sometimes with Korg, but it would seem not with Roland.

What gets me is that both of these keyboards could be totally awesome and be FULLY complete, both companies have the tools and the technology know-how.

They could eliminate ALL bugs and in the long-run they would sell more keyboards because word of mouth (and forum ) would say that they are the "ducks-nuts" in arranger keyboards.

Then they would get the customer base similar to long term Yamaha users who develop such a big library of songs, sounds, setups that they a) don't want to change or b) are too SCARED to change because the huge workload required.

Anyway its their company I guess.

Also on the Karma software, got an email from Stephen Kay last night, (man that guy must never sleep) and he said the Karma software is only for the Triton and the M3, no plans for the PA..Pity, it looks like some pretty awesome software.

Cheers
Dennis

Hey Chony, not to jump on the "build quality/button durability" bandwagon, but I've owned my PA1-X for the better part of a year (gigging professionally every week-end and some mid-week dates - and I play some very Hard Rock n Roll/Bar room piano at times) and there's been no button/build problems for me in the least.

One thing that DOES bug me about Korg - well, more specifically the PA1-X.

The damn touch screen (and general speed of the keyboard) can be pretty damn slow and unresponsive.

Is the PA2-X screen more responsive and is the Board generally "faster" than the PA1????


(Maybe Dennis can answer that question....)

One simple answer to that Hellboy..Yes and markedly so.
Quicker screen, quicker O/S, better graphics and of course.......screen goes up, screen goes down, screen goes up, screeen goes down...DOH!.....lol

I do feel your frustration at the speed of the PA1, bugged the hell out of me too!!

Another thing that is quicker is the load time of PCM's. I use the Realdrums a fair bit and have them linked into a set with some Steinway pianos and they load so much quicker.

Dennis

Cool, thanks Dennis - I suspected this was the case.

I bought the PA-1 for a sensational price (I knew the PA-2 was coming out in a few months back then, but my old KB died on me) I still don't regret the purchase a bit (the Crossfading dual sequencers is just GOLD!)but with all the samples/midifiles memory expansion etc things seemed to have slowed down a bit.

Tne only other thing I hate is the inability to find files easily - I have to scroll the HD and it takes forever - can't even seem to jump to a file alphabetically, just scroll scroll scroll........

Do you currently use the songbook much?

If it is play files you are looking for, and you probably already know this, but make the entries in the songbook, and its instant retrieval, well almost instant!

Plus it also saves any current keyboard settings as well, including style volumes, mic settings, harmoniser setting, transpose setting (if any) etc etc.

What files are you having to search for?

Because you can link pretty much anything via the Songbook. And with its filter you can sort by a few different methods as well.

D

Intesting conversation...
Some of the observations about Yamaha and Korg navigation are exactly why Ketron products have always been my favorite.
Ketron utilizes the hard drive, particularily with SD1 ,like no other company. Style Storage in limitless, because all add on styles are saved and called up from one folder on the hard drive, instantly.
Same with midi file playback, again, played directly from hard drive.
When you create styles, they are created and stored on the hard drive. You can take all onboard styles and copy to harddrive, edit, change, rename .. no registrations.

I've played Yamaha & Korg, but as many ofyou know, I am a Ketron guy...

I am disappointed with the announcement of audya without it really being ready, but hopefully soon, Audya will be worked out.

------------------
http://www.esnips.com/web/Songs

Well Dennis, to be REALLY honest, as much as I've played around (and successfully used) samples, MP3's, tweaked SMF's and Sequenced my own, layered sounds, used the odd style, linked text files with any sequenced file etc etc - I've never extensively used the songbook (!)

Maybe I should look into this, as you're not the first person to say this to me, but it DOES seem like a lot of trouble to use it...

I guess I should at LEAST organise my songs into folders...*embarrassed look*


(with over 320 songs in our repertoire - added to weekly - it's starting to get too much.)

LOL, yes you should!!!

The songbook couldn't be easier..

Load a song (smf or Mp3 or additionally on the PA1x a WAV), set up all your upper1,2,3 lower instruments, set your mic setting (as in harmoniser) set your effects, maybe some STS settings too?? And then open the songbook.

Enter as much or as little info as you like, song name, genre artist key, whatever and then press write and it is saved EXACTLY as you have the song setup.

Everytime you now select that songbook entry the keyboard is set up exactly as you programmed it and pretty much instantly.

The same applies for styles, except here it will also save your minor tweaks to a style without overwriting the style, maybe you have the accomp muted for one song, or the bassline, whatever.

The songbook over-rides, and overviews both the style play mode and the songplay mode and setting there-in.

I wouldn't be without it and if they dropped it from any further Korg arrangers, I would never buy them again. Truly!!!

You can search for a song by genre, title, key artist or assign it a number and sleect it that way if you want (of your own choosing, NOT one given it by the keyboard, as in the case of a Ketron).

And THEN you can have loads and loads of Custom Song Lists attached to this master Sonbook file. It really is the best tool of its type on ANY arranger keyboard.

The only drawback, ahd to be one didn't there!!! You can only have 1 master songbook operative at a time, you can create as many master lists as you want, but only one can be loaded at a time. BUT as I said bear in mind you can have as many custom lists as you want within the songbook.

Dennis

Is there a way to make the songbook ignore global locks, whereas performances use them? When using performances, I'm most interested in the sounds and settings but not in the style changes. When using songbook, I would want an all encompassing change that includes style, transpose, tempo, etc.

THanks

Chony, Global Locks are Global locks and nothing overrides them. If you need to have things change on a performance by performance basis, or a song by song basis or even a style by style basis you need to have the appropriate lock disabled.

Example, I have everything unlocked except Style Preferences (accessed via MENU in style mode) The other lock I use is the FILL MODE so I can control where the fill leads for all styles.

Everything else is unlocked as I set up the entire keyboard to suit my style and methods. So I need these all to change as I have them set.
I doubt there is one style on board that is still at the factory settings!

What gets confusing is EXACTLY what each lock actually locks.

I don't mind helping you guys as far as I can, but this is getting to a long thread and this stuff really should be getting posted in the Korg Forum.

So any further questions, just post there and I will do my best to help you.

Dennis

WOW Exactly my sentiments and I was comparing t the T2. I never did read the Manual cover to cover though. Far too much to deal with.

I bought the Korg because I felt it was a better workstation as well as an Arranger than the T2. But I found it easier to record tracks into the T2 and then upload the MIDI and or Audio date to the PC.

Soundwise..Yeah I tried hard to love the Korg (hell I lost $400 on it in four months) but in the end the Yamaha sounded more like the real instruments in far too many cases. But yes We will have to buy a REAL vocal Harmony box. Digitech has a great one as wel as TC Helion (who when asked by me, claimed at NAMM the technology in the Korg was not its best or most recent of theirs)

Now with the T3 I have no doubt for our needs it will be the choice.

When the OS2 comes for the PA2XPRO, I will load it and evaluate it....Especially the new DNC sound functions. Then I will go to Sweetwater Sound ( 10 minutes from my house)have them pull a T3 from the box, set it up in a nice room for me. I will spend the better part of a full day playing it and checking out the sounds in DETAIL. If the sounds are truley amazing and all the problems of the sounds on the T2 are FIXED, then I very well may buy it that day and sell my PA.

Those are big if's....

I absolutley hate it when orchestrial sounds have issues on a arranger...like differing timbres note to note, vibrato that varies a lot note to note etc. These are problems cause by sloppy sound work on the mfg. part an it ruins a performance of slower ballad/love songs type of music.

Pro synth player would not tolerate that crap...I guess on arrangers they (Mfgs.)say it's good enough for those home keyboard players??

Lee