I thought with the never ending negativity & useless nit picking on arrangers that I would ask this question to see what replies we would get from different players if we can possibly stay on topic...
Feel free to join in....I'm gathering my thoughts so I can honestly post as we speak.

"How Much JOY does an Arranger Keyboard give you when Playing?"

Compared to the joy of playing with a great band or rhythm section..? Not much

Compared to having to sequence from scratch everything you play when working solo or duo..? Great joy

Compared to having to use a Workstation in a live band situation (as long as it is my G70 )..? Ecstasy

Right Donny !

Well having played Hammond's , I would much rather play a good arranger , any day !!

You have much more flexibility with an A/KB , you have styles ( better styles ) , intros / endings+ etc.

The only time I long for a "straight" keyboard is when I get the urge to handle a B3.

Good thread !

Take care,

Gary 

For me, it's the best damned instrument ever! Having played a piano (not very well), guitar, both 6-string and 12-string and a mandolin, plus trying my damnedest to play a bluegrass fiddle and never getting close to mastering it, nothing, absolutely nothing has been as much fun as an arranger keyboard. I also tried playing a sax for a while, but I'll be the first to admit--I was awful.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

A no brain-er for me..

The arranger (top models) are by far the easiest to use ..arranging or writing songs..

And also the best for performing too..It could be legit play.. piano, and left hand bass... a very good drum machine to use with your "legit" playing..

And when needed ..full arranger that can compete with most bands...even the bands Diki plays with ..

There is also a great arranger workstation keyboard (won't mention Brand and model)..that will do justice to the B3..draw bars and all..

When ever I play the top workstations..I am always glad when I get to play my own arranger...ease of use...sounds..flexibility...Arrangers cover it all...

I guess, for me, playing straight ahead arranger, not SMF's, mp3's, or just using the drum section, I typically get a lot of joy during the first couple of verses... then the repeated nature of all the variations and fills just starts to bug me.

Maybe it's why we like to medley songs so much? If the backing won't change, at least the song and key can... And fixing the problem by creating custom styles as variations on the one we are using seems altogether too much work! I can create an SMF from the main style, and edit into it plenty of variation in less than half the time it takes to edit styles.

But I am amazed that none of the drum machine manufacturers have not glommed onto the arranger concept... four different patterns, seven fills, intro and ending patterns and a way to control it all hands-free on the fly... Combine that with a good LH bass and you have lots more variety, because you are changing what you play, even if the arranger can't!

Well this looks like a very interesting heartfelt exchange of thoughts on this topic...aside from many of the replies above which I agree with myself, I would like to add a few for me.....

Ive been playing arrangers since their inception professionally.....& what I love is the POWER to be able to be the "ORCHESTRATOR" of my own music.....an arranger is a very powerful tool to create music in so many ways....I can use a style, SMF, Multi track Seq, etc etc .. & in whatever way I CHOOSE & play music MY WAY....how it's done is up to the player, how easy or difficult is up to you, resulting in a sound YOUR happy with. If your a Pro or a Beginner the arranger can make you happy either Solo, Band, or whatever & whomever YOU want to play it....every night I get a thrill controlling all the parts & sounds into my own little arrangement of a song & do it DIFFERENT every time with no problem at all at my discretion using all the features at my disposal on board. Im happy playing it...Im happy making a decent living with one....& I am mostly happy making my audiences Glad they came to dance & hear me play an arranger. Ive seen many improvements though the years & if they never make another arranger KB after today I'd be very happy at what we already have to play.......!

"Play Music Every Day!"

Funny you should mention that.......ok, I'll be the first to go OT, despite Donny's admonition. Before I got the C1 and switched to just organ as a performance instrument, I had a DR880 and a Sr16, both of which I traded to Dan01. Now, when I want to record an organ thing in the studio, I have to use a pattern off the PA1x Pro to lay down a drum track. Although the Korg drums themselves are good, I'd like to have the convenience of a small box I can sit right on the C1 and control dynamically while I'm playing. So today I ordered the new SR18, a Zoom RT232, and the new (semi-new) Alesis DM5 Drum Pro kit w/Surge cymbals (the latter is not yet shipping). Of course the kit is for when my or some other drummer happens to stop over or I want a real drummer to lay down a track for me. I won't even attempt to do anything with the kit as I'm too old to learn ANYthing new at this stage. BTW, the Zoom is just for fun and variety, as I don't really expect the samples to be very good at $179.00.

Okay, just to finish on topic. Yes, I sometimes enjoy experimenting with my PA1xPro but rarely ever touch the Tyros2 (which probably has no more than 10 hrs. of total use). Aside from the C1, I probably play around with the VP550 more than anything else. Would I buy another arranger? Yes, if something really exciting came on the scene. Probably not a T3, though, as I'm too soured on the T2.

chas

I think that they are just marvellous. For a limited player like myself I get untold joy playing my Tyros. The auto accomp. and OTS make it all sound so good. I can't imagine a day without a session on the Tyros.

BrisbaneJim

I find it to be quite enjoyable every time I sit down at my T2...I also enjoy working with my quartet a few times a month, but I understand & accept that the days of bands gigging full time are way behind me.

Its a different kind of enjoyment...There's a precision to the t2 that is great, but at the same time the spontaneity of a live band setting is also fun as hell.



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Bill in Dayton

For me..I get alot of joy using my arranger for a contemporary worship service... My church doesn't have a drummer, guitar or any other players, so the arranger comes in handy.

I just purchased a hard disk recorder and will start recording again. Using an arranger to put down tracks with as much creativity as possible,is definately something I enjoy.I'm not talking about using one style and recording a song, but using different parts from different styles, matching tempos and laying down something creative. Writing original lyrics, recording vocals and create a complete song.

Just a thought ...

I don't know if Joy is the word. Maybe Fun. I have fun playing my s-900 here at home. If I wanna try a genre of music I don't usually play, it's fun to pull up a style and have a go. Or to play just for the fun of playing. I like to play with the S.A. voices to see how good I can make them sound.

But I don't gig with an arranger; I did once for about a dozen tunes. I would not buy an album of someone who used an arranger. I've never yet heard any music played on an arranger that had me feeling like I'd truly experienced some great music. Music that was impressive because it was an arranger, yes, but not music that was impressive in and of itself. Therefore, playing or listening to arrangers for me is fun, but not quite joyful.

At home, the arranger is a great past time. On the job it's become a necessity. But I find the darn thing so frustrating. I love the sounds and the flexibility, but to use the styles - for me - is a bummer. I can never find the style I want when I need it. I know it's my fault because I haven't invested enough time to really learn the styles (maybe because I don't use them).

I must say that of all the arrangers I've owned, the G70 was a dream machine; I should have kept it. I now have an E60 and that's a good second best, but I haven't spent near as much time with it as I should. The Yamaha PSR 3000 and 2000 gave me little inspiration, but lots of on-the-job satisfaction. My old Korg iX300 was great for the styles I used, but I didn't care for the sample sounds.

Because I'm so lazy at the learning curve, I often find myself playing the same stuff over and over. I used to be a pretty creative guy, but since the band's demise I'm in a music funk.

Why keep them if you SOURED? & never play them, thats not enjoyable please elaborate, Id like to understand this more.....? BTW what made you so soured? Wow its amazing & interesting to read all the "levels of JOY" on the SZ all caused by an arranger KB



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 07-16-2008).]

From an organ background, chords and an arranger are the perfect marriage, especially the boards that can recognize what you throw them.

When I listen to some of the incredible writers of midi files, I am sure glad I can play chords on top of top notch professionals (very humbling). The audience can then appreciate the overall end product, just like I do.

In my line of work, the people I perform for would break my fingers if I didn't show up again with my arranger. Almost every performance, a crowd stands around wanting to know all about the blue marvel

Common Zuki get that Website going!!!

Glad your in love with blue

OK, where do I start? I think back to the days when I was 20 years old, playing in a band that was playing for a singles club night and one night we came in to play only to find out we had been fired and instead of us they had a guy on a Chordovox with a drum machine. Well, the rest of the guys got really pissed off and left. I stayed and listened to him. He was the first OMB I had ever heard and he was really good. I said to myself, I can do that. I went to the music store where I was working and convinced them to sell me a Lowry organ at cost and a drum maching and the rest is history. After playing many configurations over many years with left hand bass, ect, I played my first arranger and I thought I had died and gone to heaven. I still get that feeling today. I sit down and I have a full orchestra at my command and it's awesome. I do over 300 jobs per year and it never gets old. I can't wait for the next new board to come out. Long live arrangers!!!

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

I guess I'm on a roll but I have to comment further. I watch the debates here about live band sounds, ect. I have to say that at this point in my life, (I'm 58 years old and I've played in many situations), I don't have the need to hear a 4 or 5 piece band. I played in many of them over the years. When I walk out there today, I like to hear what Frank Sinatra and the other great singers heard, a full orchestra playing clean orchestrations and kicking ass. I live for that and my arranger, my mp3's and midi files and anything else I have give that to me. As a result, I play and sing my ass off and I'm having more fun today than at any other time in my long career.

Ciao,

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

For me an arranger board gives great flexibility and compact size, however (Room permitting) it does come second to an Organ with the same features.

Bill

Joy? not at all....we are talking bliss here!!!

The qualities that make arrangers appeal to former band playing "real musicians", (the guitarist player is never drunk, the drummer keeps perfect time, the bass player shows up every time etc), in short, the presence of a full orchestra following the player, have made arrangers succesful in making more of the "general population" like myself, take up music as a hobby.

There is a limit in what I personally could manage if I played some chords in a guitar and tried to play a song I like. Using an arranger I sound better, and closer to the song. I have everything. I even can try to play a song in a different style andsee if it works.

Ahh, and for all of that I just have to press power on, select a style, and a roght hand instrument and go....

That is pure bliss.

I do not play outside my home.

The arranger for me gives that warm wonderful feeling you get when you play in a full live orchestra! I recall that pleasure way back when in High School band etc. I always missed it.

Arranger gives me the ability to feel as though I am playing music with others.

Been playing arrangers since they came out. I will always have one or two around the house.

-Linda

Joe, your experience parallels my own.
The real joy I get from an arranger is sleeping until 10:00 a.m., then playing a little golf or fishing, then a quick shower and off to PLAY music for a living!! How great is that?
I never worry about the drummer being in a bad mood, or the bass man flirting with the guitar player's girlfriend. I can learn a new song and not have to teach it to anybody else.
I occasionally will use a midi file, but rarely. I enjoy playing the chords with the left hand and lead with the right, and don't give a damn whether anybody thinks it's cheating or uncool. Only times I am ever questioned is by out-of-work "musicians" who are paying to hear me. They don't understand how I am making more $$ than their whole band gets for a "gig".
I LOVE it!
DonM

Exactly my sentiments, Don...well said.

Ian

I'm a pianist first and have played in many bands. I enjoy playing with an arranger (T2) because it gives me the ability to play music that pleases me and my audience. Creative use allows for variation as well as a consistent professional performance. Would I prefer to always play in a band with four or five other musicians. Sure. Is it practical. No way.


The arranger is a great tool. I think it gets dinged when people use it as a crutch and depends too much on droning patterns and sometimes hokey features.


It's just a tool. You have to be a musician first. There's still no shortcut for practice, study, practice, listening, practice, and practice.

Love to sit down witrh an arranger several times a day. Great for learning tunes and just having fun. Would rather not gig with them, but do when it's called for. Have an SD-5, Roland GW-8, MS-60 and a Midjay to play with at work and keep another MS-60 on a house job.

Neat little fun tools!


Russ

It's much better than playing the spoons, Tyros 2 has a better sound. My bookings have tripled since trading in the spoons. However the spoons are much lighter and are much easier to find a hardshell case to fit them that doesn't weigh a ton

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God Bless,
Mikey

www.mikeymaestro.com
www.myspace.com/kidconcert
www.balloonanimal.com
www.1000colorcards.com

I like what Trident said, " Joy? not at all....we are talking bliss here!!!

I echo that sentiment. The arranger opened doors for me musically that would have been closed, had I not picked up an arranger. I could have been playing a few cocktail hour type piano gigs here and there, but the arranger has got me gigs I wouldn't have had otherwise.

Actually it was my wife that bought me as novelty for a birthday a $159 Casio. Since I had a beautiful grand piano sitting in the living room I thought she was out of her mind buying this toy. I was about to return it. But started playing the thing and thought hey this lots of fun. The next 3 years followed with better and better arrangers....and more gigs along the way.

The only joy I don't get from an arranger is the feeling I get when sitting down at an acoustic piano and really being able to play expressively. Yea, you can play and sing with expression using an arranger, but for me who spent those early years playing piano, there is nothing like playing a piano solo with all the dynamics that go along with that instrument.

That being said, I would never trade my arranger for an acoustic piano.

Can you post something done on the spoons.

Donny

Whoops, I mean chas.

I really miss my four piece group (gave that up years ago) -but with my SD1-I don't have to worry about the drummer being late or being to loud-the horn man not wanting to play that mouldy oldie tune-on and on.

For all the musicians happily bashing their former bandmates here...

How about that beam in your own eye..? I wonder what some of those ex-members are saying about YOU?

For every drummer that rushes, there's a keyboard player that drags I've seen MORE than my fair share of drunk pianists, bad keyboard players, players that don't know anything to do with their LH other than sit on the bass player's part, players who's patches are all at different volumes, players that insist on playing jazz chords over rock and roll songs, and players that couldn't play a sax solo on keyboard that avoided sounding like a kazoo if their life depended on it! Drug addicts, thieves and liars...

Let us not for one minute pretend that we, as keyboard players, somehow magically avoid all the flaws we are SO eager to place at the door of everybody else in the band!

Hi Diki, -like I said 'I really miss my four piece group' -The drummer could really make those drums sing, the horn man was very very good-but like family, we all have our faults.
My problem was to be able to pick out a proper beat 'on the fly' & speeding on some fast tunes.
The arranger keyboard helps a lot in this area. I also like the feature-that anytime during a day, I can turn on my keyboard to try out a new idea.

Common Chas you must know no one plays here we just talk.

Yeah, let's count our blessings.

chas

Two answers to question 1. I'm a packrat and still have racks of keyboards and modules from the 80's and 90's. They aren't worth anything and I have plenty of storage. Also, I like the guitars on the T2, especially the 'jazz guitar' which, bTW, isn't even a SA voice. I also like the SA sax but never use it because I find the sax on the Korg (Tenor Sax Noise 1) fits my music better and is more playable (whatever that means).

As to what soured me on the T2? First off, I bought it without hearing it first, mainly because of all the hype on this board . I'd never had a Yammy (arranger) but loved my old DX7 (I still have 3 or 4 TX216's stashed somewhere), so I thought I'd give one a try. Hated all the styles from day one. For me, they epitomized phoniness and sounded as far from 'live' as you could get. By contrast, I love the korg styles (with all of their imperfections and despite the counter-intuitive OS). They fit the type of music I play much better than the T2, although I can understand the appeal of the T2 for some people. Since i don't use an arranger for gigging, I'm more tolerant of the Korg's eccentricities.

Hope that answers your questions.

chas

You know, what would be a telling question is "How much joy do you get playing WITHOUT your arranger?"

How many of us can sit at a piano or regular keyboard, or turn off ALL the auto stuff, and actually enjoy what we play?

In fact, I'll start a thread to ask that question, rather than hijack this...
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/017867.html

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 07-17-2008).]

As I've said many times on this forum, I continue to play solo piano jobs as well as duos and trios and I love them and enjoy them also. I can more than hold my own on a piano. However, I still love the full orchestrations.

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

As a singer of some sorts the arranger has opened a whole new world to me.
I can sing to midi's to my hearts content and do one man concerts without worrying about someone playing for me.

Bliss!!!!!!

Cousin Ken

Ken sounds like your indulging all the assets of an arranger

good luck !