A little more of the puzzle.
http://www.yamahapkowner.com/?p=436

Jerry

This better be the mother of all arrangers with all this hype.

Hmmmm?....
looks like Zuki is "Ready For Change"

Quite possibly it may tempt many PA-800 and E-80 users back to the maker of the best arrangers on the market...Yamaha.

After that flagrant promotion, I must admit, they certainly know how to build suspense and excitement as well as incredible instruments.

Marketing at it's best.

Ian the Proud

Agreed Ian.....this will definitly be one for the history books.....judging by the Tyros 2's For Sale on eBay the Pre-Exodus is already starting...let the puzzle pieces fall where they may........

"Its Coming....."

Yawn....

Wake me up when the bullsh*t is over, will you...? Yamaha's 'improvements' are so incremental, nobody that managed to resist the T2 is going to be any more tempted by the T2 MkII (whoops, T3 ), IMO...

"It's Snoring....."

Ian dont laugh maybe even Diki will convert to T3

Yeah, right after I buy a G70.

After they add another 15 keys...

Are you sure they're not talking about a 61-key G70? With the new placement of some of those features, it sure sounds like it. Oh, that's right, Yamaha doesn't make anything like the G70.

Neither does Roland

I still don’t understand why uses have to trade in their existing boards, just to get new sounds and features, (Seems a very expensive way to do things) I would have thought it would be much better to pay a fraction of the upgrade price, and just buy the new software and if required a couple of bits of hardware.
Some people really love to spend money for nothing.
Actually that last statement sounds good for a song. (Money for Nothing)

Bill

Well, Bill, seeing as how you are of course talking about Wersi let's look at that...

If you consider that by trading at the right time, for the right price, you often only lose a few hundred dollars each time you upgrade. Now consider that to get into a Wersi in the first place, particularly a well-speced one, you are looking at close to double the price of a good TOTL arranger. At least $3000 more than anything else.

Now, I don't know about you, but that $3k price difference pays for a LOT of 'upgrades', probably well over a decade or more (probably closer to two) of doing it on almost every model that comes out. Imagine losing $500 by trading. $3k gives you six model changes. New models once every three years... 18 years of upgrading for that $3k premium. OK, worst case scenario - you lose $1000 upgrading (although I've never done that!), you still get nine years of being TOTL for the same money...

I am quite sure that in a decade the hardware and software of a Wersi will not be compatible any more, unless you put that close to $3k into upgrades for the Wersi anyway (I've seen that price-list of Wersi hardware upgrades - Yikes! )

Not to mention that ALL of the 'closed' arrangers don't need another cent put into them to sound amazing, whereas to get the best out of an 'open' system, you have to add thousands MORE in VSTi's to get the basic sound to be noticeably better than a 'closed' arranger. This adds to the REAL cost of an 'open' system, making the difference between upgrading continually on closed systems and buying an exorbitantly expensive open one, and STILL having to spend quite a bit to stay current, much less than you make out.

Also, I note that you yourself are considerably behind the 'state of the art' as far as your own Wersi's hardware upgrades goes, aren't you? If they are so cheap, why have you not gone that route yourself...? You are, in effect, advising others to do what you don't do yourself...

It would be interesting to hear from you exactly how much it would cost to upgrade your own Wersi's hardware to be equivalent to their current TOTL specs, how much it cost in the first place (and new cost if someone started with your model), and how much you have spent on VSTi's for it (and what the cost of all the favorite VSTi's that most power users use). New CPU's, software, displays, peripherals, everything that is in a TOTL Wersi as of today...

TCO... Total cost of operation. To remain state of the art (which you do when upgrading to the latest Yamaha or Korg, etc.) over a decade or more is probably a LOT closer than you think, if you actually avail yourself of the upgrade path that Wersi offer. OF COURSE it's cheap if you don't upgrade

But so is NOT buying the latest Yamaha if you already have the previous one...

1. Since the launch of OAS over 8 years ago you would only have to upgrade the Motherboard, Ram, CPU and Hard disk once to be able to run the latest OAS 7 software. As to cost, would you pay £130 or more for a Roland stand for your G70 when the same stand (Without the Roland badge) could be picked up for about £30, I am pretty sure the answer is no. The same applies to computer parts, you just buy them off the shelf for a fraction of the cost that Wersi (Or any other manufacture that sells bits) charge.

2. You do not need to buy VSTs to make Wersi sound good, as it is easily a match for any board out there, as well as offering capabilities beyond what others are offering. (If you don’t believe me, follow your own advice and try the board first LIVE)

3. With the advent of OAS 7 the sound production hardware had to be changed for the first time since launch, the cost of a new card would have been approx €800 (The equivalent card to use in a standard computer is also a similar cost) however Wersi charge only €495 for the new board and the massively upgraded software, (It is so different that you cannot load any previous generation sounds directly into it. (You have to import them and then let the software convert them into the new format) The reason it is much cheaper is because you trade in you old sound board for the new one.

4. The future of sound is sound modelled voices, (10yrs from now they will be the most common form of sound reproduction) and the new sound board introduced with OAS 7 has this capability on board, (Which means it is good for another 10 – 15yrs or more) and all the New voices onboard use a combination of samples and sound modelling. (Eventually all sounds will probably just use the sound modelling features, however R & D to program them will take considerable resources, and so it will be a few years before this happens) how many hardware boards do you know that can use sound modelled voices.

5. As to big screens and the rest, then these are options, you DO NOT and I repeat DO NOT have to purchase them to use the new software. (As I have mentioned in other posts when I have replied to your posts (Do you ever read them fully, or do you just pick out the bits you can make mileage on)

6. Once again if you had read previous posts you would know that I have been busy with other things, and so have not had the time to upgrade. (Not much point upgrading until you have the time to indulge in the new features.

7. Stop thinking everything revolves around Florida beach music and sounds, because it doesn’t, it’s just a very small part in a very big ocean.

Finally, Enjoy Life, Enjoy music, and most importantly DON’T be afraid of the future.

Regards

Bill



[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 07-03-2008).]

Just where in the heck did this come from..? You see ANY reference to Florida beach music (whatever THAT is? )?

Sorry, Bill, but although I might play on a beach from time to time, it's got bugger all to do with WHAT I play, WHAT I play on, and HOW I play.

And, although it may constitute a portion of my income, at the same time I am doing recording work with national artists, local musicians, and just about anything that comes my way. I would also be fairly sure I have played, used and made a living off of VSTi's for MUCH longer than you, am WELL aware of the fact that you try ANY of today's modern VSTi's on a ten year old CPU, mother board or OS and it will grind it to a halt in a flash. Let's face it, if you have a ten year old computer running Vista, the only thing ten year old in there might be the case!

And sorry, old bean, but every Wersi demo I have heard using the onboard sounds makes me want to ride the Tilt-A-Whirl! While the VSTi's can make it sound closer to a T2, do without those and you start to sound like a cross between a ten year old arranger and the Blackpool Tower organ...

Come to think of it, the Wersi is the PERFECT arranger for beach music... If that is Blackpool Beach you are talking about. My Pontins and Butlins days are long over, and so is that sound. But if I chose to return to that beach music sound, rest assured I will consider a Wersi (after I win the lottery)...

Look at the specs for running today's high end VSTi's, yet alone any of the future modeling VSTi's (whose system requirements would choke a Cray!) and you realize that the ideal of an all VSTi arranger is still a LONG way away. Heck, most studios running on primarily VSTi sounds have to have multiple computers just to run a whole song like that. Hollywood film scorers have banks of them.

There's a LOT more to running VSTi's than a bit of B4 and Colossus (seen the list price for that one? )

I am not afraid of the future. I have been on the cutting edge of using computers for music since they first came out. I have been using VSTi's since the very day they started. I have probably more experience doing full virtual production than most on this forum, have a decent collection of them already, and the studio has more. Use them to their potential, and you can drain the living daylights out of any state of the art octo-core CPU out right now, yet alone some kludged-up retrofit of a ten year old arranger...

I am not afraid of the future, but I am WELL aware that it is not upon us yet... despite all the hype.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 07-03-2008).]

1. Once again you ignore virtually all of the points made, picking odd bits to suit.

2. If you think the Blackpool sound, Euro sound etc, (And anything else that doesn’t comply with how you play in Florida) is dead, then you really are out of touch with reality. (The current leader in future music is Germany, as both the US and the UK have lost their crowns)

Anyway back to reality, as in addition to the points made in my first post, it was also to add a bit of humour to the post, (Hence all the smiley) and not to highjack it, so if you want to continue manipulating what I have posted, please start another thread, or go back to the ones that you never replied too. (Or just plain ignored)
Regards

Bill

BTW I have been working with computers since the late 70s early 80s, (I was even doing Midi on a Spectrum) and to quote a US saying, “You haven’t seen nothing yet” it’s also closer then you think.

Diki,

The Wersi doesn't need VSTi's loaded to sound better than other arrangers, the factory sounds already sound great right out of the box. The Wersi has nearly 1 GB of sounds in OAS 7 as standard. That's about 10 times the sound ROM used for any other arranger made today. What that equates to is some phenomenal sounding instruments, especially the orchestral and acoustic instruments. The Wersi also has great synthesis features (FM, Wavetable, Physical Modeling, etc.) and can load samples as well (both 16 and 24 BIT). Listen to any Creamware or Sonic Core sound demo and that's what the Wersi sounds like.

I strongly suggest you audition a Wersi OAS system in person rather than speculate what it sounds like because your assumptions of what it sounds like are way off base. Just because you've heard some MP3 demos that showcase the Wersi organ sounds doesn't mean that's all that it can do. The Wersi factory sounds are already a powerhouse in and of themselves but once you add the ability to utilize VST's and AKAI samples, the sound palette opens up 100 fold. Only the Lionstracs Mediastation offers that kind of versatility but the Mediastation's factory sound set isn't on par with Wersi's. Lionstracs is working on changing that though. Contrary to what you and many others think, the Mediastation's stock sounds are far better than you can imagine. Until you audition one in person, don't be so quick to judge.

I've gone from the best arrangers that Yamaha, Technics, and Korg have to offer and the Wersi easily rivals what I've had prior. I haven't experienced any other arranger to date that has the sounds, features, ease of use, and build quality of the Wersi. It's not likely that Yamaha, Roland, Korg, or Ketron will produce anything that even comes close to the Wersi let alone rivals it. Rest assured if they do, I'll be the first one in line to buy one. I won't hold my breath because that hasn't happened yet.

Diki that sounds exciting which acts are you working with?

Ensnareyou and Abacus...
don't need here to continue expain the possibility and audio quality of the VST/ASIO support, because they know really well.
The problems is that they will never admit that small company like Wersi, Lionstracs, Musereseach...can make, develope and produce new innovative products based on recent PC technology.
For sure the Tyros can have the best styles available today but still they and the all other brands continue to resell dated/recycled hardware/software...that just some now after 10 years start to play one simple Mp3..
This why?
because the mass of the people are still interested to buy this dated products and continue put in the trash the money just for replace the new hardware with some new keys and sounds....and the manufacture are happy because every 6 months they know to resell a new hardware and not a simple Upgrade.

The keyboards are like the Cell phones.
Do NOT convince someone to change the Nokia phone to the Samsung, OR the Sony to the LG!
This is only a closed mentality because they will always eating the same warmed soup.

is better eat a secure WARMED soup or Hamburger that try to go in the restaurant for try to eating one Argentina Steak!

Just look at the apple with the new Iphone 3G for example: http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2008/06/09telecomitalia.html
We believe in the new technology and we know that this new Iphone will be the revolution of the cell phones..
then just browser in the net and read how many are offence the Apple...this only because they will NOT accept that a new brand company entry in the telecomunications.
Totally same is for the keyboards...
Time will tell...just patience...
I really will listen when are available this new promised keyboards and then they have to waiting again 40-50 minute for loading the sampler or just play in good quality ONE Mp3..

Enjoy what you play...( or drinking?.. )

Well, why don't you do something about this? Seems pretty dumb to me to have what you claim is the cutting edge hardware, and just leave it at that. You are already probably pretty aware that the majority of the market is FAR more concerned about the styles and sounds than they are the architecture. Why not give them what they want? (Oh, the horror! )

Or is developing hundreds of thousands of lines of code easier (and more fun) than making great styles?

Enjoy what you are smoking...

Diki . The problem is making the styles is the one bit of the process that requires more than just writing technical lines of programming . This element requires musical skill , great ears and feel and takes time and money and ooooodles of talent. Money because no one musician can make great drum patterns, guitar pattens sax riffs, etc. And to get world class styles you will have to hire world class musicians , studio technicians , sound engineers etc.Yyhis does not come cheap and Dom understands this perfectly which is why he does not try to compete with yamaha, korg etc on styles. Its clear that Liontracs simply does not have deep enough pockets to compete on this front . But they have computer based skills and the hard ware bought at trade prices is relatively cheap. So Lion tracs is stuck really. All they can do is use converted styles and mess them together as best they can and add another technical feature that hopefully someone with both nusical and technical ability might some day find useful.

And still the question goes unanswered (ignored?)

sorry double post

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 07-04-2008).]

Diki:

You come across as a really unfriendly guy. What's going on? Do you have hemorrhoids or something?

Why diss Bill's board? I mean I get your argument that you are better off financially upgrading and selling your Roland/Yamaha/Korg than buying a Wersi, but there's no reason to be insulting people and their equipment.

I think that Wersis sound incredible. Doesn't mean I can afford one or that I think that they are worth their value. If I were incredibly rich, I would buy one.

I just don't get the gratuitous insults.

Beakybird

Probably because of "mine is better than yours" got 'em going again.

As far as straying from the 800, NO WAY. Loving it more each passing day.

Sorry, guys, gigging like crazy...

Donny, sorry, got an NDA for right now. You won't have heard of any of these guys, anyway. It's all emo and hard alternative, stuff you would never in your life actually listen to!...

And for the amateur doctors out there... C'mon guys! What's so sacrosanct about Wersi? Just because it's twice as expensive as anything else out there gives it a free pass? Somehow, we can manage to be brutally honest in our opinions of Roland's, Korg's and Yamaha's, but it's hands off of Wersi? PLEASE...!

I've listened to most of the stuff posted here done on Wersi... OK, maybe it's NOT the arranger. Maybe it's just that the only people that buy these things have a soft spot for old theater organ styles, who knows? But if you can't hear the Blackpool organ roots of much of this, that's not my problem...

But what gets up my nose (well, you can pick your orifice of choice, Beaky) is the constant litany of 'get a Wersi, you cheap sons of guns, and all your problems will go away' (as if the future is already here), despite the lack of any evidence that it will...

Wersi's are twice as expensive, nearly twice as heavy (WHAT? only Roland gets a lambasting for weight?) but, to my ears, nowhere near twice as good as any TOTL closed arranger. Once again, MAYBE it's just the players...

And on a final note, I have a warning... I am getting rather fed up of being personally insulted on this forum by people I have NOT been personally rude to. Look at this thread, there is not the slightest insult to anyone, only my opinion about their arranger. Completely objective, nothing personal at all.

Then firstly, Bill comes in with his '7. Stop thinking everything revolves around Florida beach music and sounds, because it doesn’t, it’s just a very small part in a very big ocean.' Now, I don't know about you, but you see any reference to Florida beach music anywhere? Personal reference #1 And now Beaky's hemorrhoid reference. Look guys, all I ever talk sh*t around here is arrangers. That's what the forum is about. Positive AND negative impressions about arrangers. No-one wants to talk about MUSIC, for Pete's sake, no-one definitely wants to post any music (heck, that's not why we bought an arranger, is it? We just bought them for the specs ). No-one wants to talk about technique, arranging, medley construction, audience techniques, etc.. NOOOO.... all we want to do is blather endlessly about our precious bloody hardware.

Well, OK, then. That's what I'm doing.... But I'm talking smack about your bloody arrangers, NOT you personally. Just lately, I've been getting some pretty personal retorts to comments about arrangers. Just WTF is your problem? It's a bloody keyboard, not your grandkids. Why get so personal in defense of it..? Let's try to keep this forum on the polite tip, if we can. But I am warning you.... I get any more of this personal insults for comments made about an arranger, I'm coming back at YOU personally, OK?

If you think this kind of gutter comment is reasonable, expect to see it returned, in the future. You have been warned

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 07-05-2008).]

Once again you have completely missed or misinterpreted the points made.
As to insults, then apart from a few opinions about the way you have answered certain posts, there have been none. (Don’t keep assuming that because somebody disagrees with you, it’s a personal attack, because it isn’t)
Anyway I think it’s about time we let this thread return to its original reason.
Regards

Bill

So, is it alright to comment about YOUR hemorrhoids, Bill?

Anyone is as free to disagree with my comments as I feel to disagree with theirs. But start to get personal (which I don't believe I do) and it goes beyond a discussion. I don't mind any disagreement with my comments, and I feel others should probably feel the same. But why the personal stuff?

Is it simply too hard to stay focused on the topic, that you have to bring personal comments in in lieu of opinion? I haven't said ONE bad thing about you personally, Bill. You still haven't explained what the hell that 'Florida beach music' comment was supposed to be about. My playlist is music from the sixties thorough contemporary stuff, with an emphasis on acoustic guitar. Beatles (is that Florida beach music?), Eagles (no Florida connection there), Elton John (you are kidding? ), Stealer's Wheel (got some suntan lotion?)... Sure, I do a bit of Buffett (plenty in the interior do him!) and some reggae (no shortage of fans away from the beach, there), but primarily, what my duo does is general music from the sixties, seventies, and beyond.

Mind you, yes, it's possible that I don't play any theater organ medleys, but on the other hand, I want to stay working!

I have made NO comments about YOUR music, Bill (as I don't believe I have ever heard any. Have you posted anything yourself, at all?), merely commented on the web examples of Wersi's I have heard. Sure, not ALL of them sound like they are Blackpool Tower pieces, but let's face it, an awful lot ARE. The Wersi touts all the long wave theater organ ROM as a 'feature', and it is definitely marketed at, and demoed to theater organ aficionados. Now, there's nothing wrong with that, I've seen Reginald Dixon a couple of times, myself, back in the sixties. But it wasn't even contemporary music back then, and it has gotten less popular since those days (despite what it's fans would have you think). Can you name ONE theater organ tune that has made the charts in the last thirty years (or longer)? Techno and rave styles...? None of that crowd are using Wersi's to chart, that's for sure... Virus's, sure. But name a techno smash that was recorded on a Wersi... Europe may indeed have a vibrant techno scene, but it isn't being fueled by arrangers

But hey, maybe by 'Florida beach music' you simply meant 'everything BUT theater organ music'... Who knows..? Perhaps I AM a little sensitive (Feel free to insert WHERE )

Anyway... Yes, I feel free here to comment about arrangers, music (rarer!), anything of that nature. You want to get worked up about it, and come at me personally (this is mostly to Beaky and a few other that have been less that impersonal in the last couple of weeks, Bill), bring it on! I thought we had gotten over that gutter trash talk quite a while back, but if you want to start it again, have at it! I can probably hang in there with it if I HAVE to, but, to be honest, I'd rather keep things polite around here. And by POLITE, I mean nothing personal. But if you chose to regard a comment about an arranger as a PERSONAL attack, well, first of all, you need therapy and secondly, you need to get a life!

It's a TOOL, for playing music on (you know, the thing we hate to talk about, here!), not your johnson (or backside), and negative comments about it are directed at the arranger, NOT YOU. Jeez, guys. I have heard almost every negative thing that is possible to be said about my G70. Have I EVER made a comment as personal as



This just, to me, sounds like someone is incredibly confused about the difference between a comment about an arranger (what we are here for) and a comment about a PERSON... (and a strange hybrid love/hate comment, to boot... he SORT of agrees with me on some of the points, but apparently hates that I voiced them! )

If a negative comment about an arranger is an insult, should I not be the most insulted member here..? G70 gets very little respect here, not that I give a damn. I don't feel personally insulted by any of the comments about it (not that I have to agree with them, but it's not personal), and I certainly don't feel like throwing gutter comments at the poster. I can usually reason my way through a rebuttal. But hey! If this is the best you can come up with, my condolences.

So, it's up to you. You REALLY want to start the trash talk thing again, or can we just get back to talking about arrangers?

BTW, to return a little to the Wersi upgrade discussion (if you could call it that!), here is a price list of some of the upgrades to Wersi's, to bring them up to contemporary specs.
http://tinyurl.com/5vzpyz

This certainly doesn't look like the trivial few pennies we are led to believe...

(Was this too personal for anyone? )

Upgrade prices
The touch screen and extra control buttons are options, and are not required to make full use of an OAS instrument, (How many other arranger/organ manufactures even give you this option)
The Real Drums and Wave Player were optional in the early days (And technically still are) but I don’t know of any instrument sold, where the dealer doesn’t supply the activation codes in the standard price.
Not all players want an all singing all dancing arranger section, (Particularly if they play organ) and so Wersi provide it is an option, as to whether it should it be free, then take into consideration that it took almost 2 years of R & D to develop (There is currently nothing on the market that has all the capabilities of the OAA) and while Roland and Yamaha could probably easily loose it with their massive budgets and sales, a small firm like Wersi does not have that luxury. (Again like most options, if you buy the OAA at the same time that you buy the instrument the prices are reduced.
Will I purchase it, well all singing all dancing styles are not my cup of tea, but I will make the final decision at the Pakefield Keyboard Festival when I get the chance to try it fully. (It should also be the first public airing of Tyros 3, (Peter Baartmans will be there so he will probably demonstrate it) there is also a top European Roland Arranger demonstrator there as well, so this might indicate that there is also something on the way from Roland)
Regarding Florida, I was using this to emphasize that whenever anybody posts music that you do not normally play, you always appear to pass it off as a minority base or dying, whereas in actual fact it is just as big (If not bigger) then the type of music you play. (The reason Mediastation sells well in eastern and Arabic markets is that it matches how they perform their music, and which they cannot achieve on a Roland or Yamaha etc)
Hope this puts things into perspective
Regards

Bill