I beg to differ

The Chord Sequencer was one of the most revolutionary improvements in realtime arranger operation ever made. Roland dropped it.

The Full Band/Small Combo/Bass & Drums selection buttons was one of the most useful style modifier realtime controls ever made. Roland dropped it.

The list goes on and on. So just because this COULD be a great idea (with work), it doesn't mean Roland are a) going to finish it, and b) not going to drop it when and if they do...

Diki, I had forgotten about those things, not that I have used them personally, but going by the glowing accounts, Roland was remiss in removing them.

Well maybe its only Yamaha and Korg that are the clever companies and continue developing their keyboard features until they are fully expanded.

And THEN move onto the next model.

Dennis

Easy for you to say, Bill.

Do you have these plug-ins? Have you got them to work seamlessly with your styles? Can you gig with them (or don't you mind the down time while they load)? Can you use them in an improvised set, or do you have to load them in advance?

And if you DO have and use these plug-ins, how about a demo or two? If they are THAT much better, and remain practical (and that's the issue for most non-home players), I would have thought you'd be all over showing us how superior the Wersi's can sound...

There's a lot of theoretical advice chucked around in here from Wersi owners that simply repeat the marketing hype, rather than find out for themselves whether an advertised feature actually works in practice as well as it SEEMS to in theory. I would be very surprised to not find that the majority of OAS users have simply got B4 and a GIGA grand piano on their systems and little else. All this potential, for a piano that might be just a LITTLE better than my G70's ROM one, and a B3 sim because Wersi, of all people can't make a better Hammond sound internally...

Where are the OAS users using BFD or DFH2, Scarbee Bass, Ivory, Colossus, Atmosphere, Trilogy, Stylus RMX, Vienna Symphonic Cube, Real Strat, Real Guitar, and all the other amazing streaming libraries of undisputedly better sounds than ANY arranger's internal set...?

Either still scratching their heads over the manual, or have given up once they realized that the marketing hype doesn't translate to the ability to use all this at the same time (if at all), given the state of computer technology, today, is my guess. They certainly don't post much, do they?

What WAS the last USER Wersi demo posted that used much in the way of OAS? Anybody even remotely impressed?

I'm sorry, Bill... I'm not trying to be TOO cruel here, but instead of pointing others here to some 'theoretical' answer to their problem, why not tell them that YOU use what you propose, it works GREAT, and here's a few demos to show you how good it can be. Oh, and yes, you CAN use it without a couple of minutes load time (or longer).

Now THAT'S useful information....

No, it's probably because I don't have either of those that you haven't been made aware of the boneheaded decisions that they, down the years, have surely made!

From having read a few, occasionally more critical reviews of K & Y arrangers, I DO know that mistakes HAVE been made, features dropped, and user favorites are no longer with us...

But few seem as willing to criticize their own arranger as I am mine. It's not that they HAVE no flaws, it's just that some feel that they might 'lose face' by admitting what IS wrong with what they chose to buy. Me, I've no problem with it. I didn't design the damn thing, I just bought one. It's not a grandchild, or a beloved pet. It's a bloody keyboard, that's all! Just like all the other bloody keyboards I have

It doesn't make me sound any worse, or play any worse to admit what flaws DO exist in my arranger. I just wish more of us could see this, and get a more honest dialog going about real arranger use and problems that arise. But we are all so tied up in bragging that only WE have the 'best arranger' that serious flaws, boneheaded manufacturer changes and just plain silliness get a free pass, and the manufacturers continue to go ahead in the knowledge that we don't care, and even if we did, it would kill us to publicly admit it

Ian should be eternally grateful that Yamaha DON'T make a 76... Or I might have one, and all the dirty little secrets would be out in public by now

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 06-14-2008).]

Diki...I have continually criticized all my arrangers & I have owned many....they ALL have flaws...but some flaws can be manipulated with workarounds to the USERS NEEDS...lets take my current ax....Yamaha S900.........

terrible angled display, in a sitting position its almost impossible to view while playing needs a manual tilt at the very least...the 3k had the same display BUT a different body design which made the entire unit angle upwards a bit more.

Toy like VH that sounds like a KAZOO, breaks up, very unnatural sounding but with a bit of tweaking it could be used very sparingly....but in NO WAY is PRO Quality compared to TC Helicon, or Digitech

MFD is totally useless for live stage navigation because it doesn't save some parameters like Transpose.

Rear inputs/AC are in the worst position possible (middle) for someone who uses a APEX stand.....these should be extreme right or left.

USB should have FRONT ACCESS


But I make it work for me somehow......by passing all the above.

I really would like to try a SD5 one of the few I haven't gotten my hands on yet but Don Mason loves his he tells me BUT can you find one around here ? NO!!


so there Diki....I said it & I'm sticking to it!!

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-14-2008).]

But you and I are more the exception than the rule around here, Donny...

Most are FAR more willing to criticize someone ELSE's arranger than their own, and let's face it, they are in a much better position to knowledgeably criticize their OWN arranger than anything else!

Yes Diki......but with no harm intended to anyone...some don't even know any better either. Or some never use some of the featured flaws others complain about so its a of no consequence to them.
I'm waiting .....I'm hopeful,....
I'm curious to see what's next!

Yep... Sometimes I feel like the one-eyed man in the land of the blind!

It's not that I am THAT great a player (if any good at all!), but so many arranger users are one finger chord players, barely getting the melody and chords right, or just fairly basic players. And issues that prevent you being able to whiz around with BOTH hands when you feel like it, or chord recognition systems that don't account for more elaborate passing chord systems, or ways to defeat chord recognition while you chromatacize your little brains out all over simpler changes, just get blank stares and complete non-recognition that there IS a problem!

But for more advanced players, there are a myriad issues that don't trouble basic players, but getting them to acknowledge that, although they may not be a problem to them YET, if they improve a bit more (and who doesn't want to improve any? ) they WILL sooner or later face these problems is like pulling teeth

'It works for me NOW, so how could there possibly be anything wrong?' is the mantra. Well, I'm here to tell you that, get any better than you are NOW, and you WILL find problems with these supposedly 'perfect' arrangers!

Aww c'mon Diki and Donny, are you two serious?? You guys are joking right?

You don't actually BELIEVE some of that stuff you write, do you??? If you do, and are serious in those comments you blokes must think you are gods gift to the arranger/keyboard world..

Dennis

Well,Dennis, I'm God's gift to nobody! Trust me on that one.

But what issue are you taking offense from, now? Do you honestly believe that there AREN'T players who have no use for advanced features..? Talk to Roland, who dropped one of the most useful things an advanced player could possibly want, because, according to Roland, nobody used it! Draw your own conclusions.

It's pretty obvious, from many, many replies about issues with arranger operation that few have the slightest clue about, that an awful lot of players are tightly restricted to basic playing techniques. Basic left hand chords, right hand melody, not much else. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, but it IS a fact, IMO...

Now, there are a plethora of other arranger features designed for more advanced players, but because of the emphasis on non-players, basic players, and 'home' players, these are often afterthoughts of the design team, and often poorly implemented, and often dropped because they only work if you ARE an advanced player....

As Ian keeps pointing out, the VAST majority of arrangers are sold to 'home' users who can barely play, or are intermediate at best. Let's face it, where do you think the whole arranger backlash and reputation comes from? Advanced, 'pro' players? Dream on...

Why you are so upset is puzzling. Either you are an advanced player, and know about the issues with advanced features (or the lack of them!), or you are not, and just getting worked up at the thought that there MIGHT be someone who needs more than you do. I can't figure it out...

Look, I can talk until I'm blue in the face about issues that prevent you being able to do much except input chords with your left hand on an arranger. An utter waste for someone with a strong left hand technique. Understandable from people that primarily play arrangers, learned on arrangers, and wouldn't know what to do with that LH if their arranger quit and they had to use a WS, but sometimes it would be nice to hear from someone with the same problems, rather than the knee-jerk reaction of a mostly defensive group with a chip on their shoulder about having to play a keyboard that has (probably rightly ) earned quite a bit of disrespect from the musical community.

Look, if you have NO issues with your arranger of choice, good for you! Enjoy what you have. But don't get bent out of shape if someone else isn't as satisfied as you are...

I don't think I'm God's gift to anyone. I think the arranger is God's gift to us...! I just wish that He would spend a little more time and energy on the more advanced features (like Guitar Mode, how this thread got started), and the heck with those that don't use them or understand them. SOME of us do.