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#234790 - 05/24/08 05:34 AM Mixer settings
cassp Offline
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Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
I always listen for other keyboardist's EQ settings. Most sound very good with no peaks or spikes. Sometime I feel my pianos are too treble-y. Assuming you are using a mixer or amp with 3 or 4 EQ knobs, what settings (1-10 or clock)do you use? If using a graphic EQ, what are your settings? Do you use compression or noise gates, etc.?

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Cass
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#234791 - 05/24/08 11:45 AM Re: Mixer settings
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
What keyboard, and what patches are you having this problem with?

I have to confess my G70's GrandX patch sounds about perfect to me with no EQ at all...

Are you EQ'ing the entire arranger at the Master Tools section, or adding treble at the mixer?

Throw us a few more details, Cassp...
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#234792 - 05/24/08 11:52 AM Re: Mixer settings
cassp Offline
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Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
I agree I was most impressed with the G70 piano patches. I can't say the same for the e60. They sound thinner and tinnier. I usually don't mess with internal EQ too much 'cuz I really don't have a feel for what I'm doing there. But I'm usually pretty good at the mixer. I would have to say that I am mostly concerned about piano not spiking (wrong word?) or sounding too strong on some hits.

I've been running the Mackie 808S mixer channels pretty flat, with a little mid boost. Master EQ is almost flat with only a little boost on the first and last two slders (9 band).
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#234793 - 05/24/08 12:27 PM Re: Mixer settings
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Run the piano at Medium key touch setting, try the Classic piano patch (I think it's the same samples as the GrandX), make sure there is no MFX enabled (they often put the Enhancer on as default, which overly brightens the sound).

In all fairness, I don't use ANY piano patch in the G70 other than the GrandX (and occasionally a honky-tonk), I don't like them much at all. But one PERFECT piano is all you need, IMO!

Strangely, most at roland-arranger.com complain the the Roland pianos (at least the Classic and Superior) in the E50/60 are too DARK for them, and from what I heard (there's a thread from a while ago where we ran the Purgatory Creek file through those patches), I tend to agree. We discussed ways in the voice programming (adding a bit to the cutoff value seemed to work) to get them back to the G70's sound. It might help.

My take was that many had come from Yamaha and Korg arrangers and keyboards previously, which IMO are WAY to brittle and bright, compared with a REAL piano, and were hooked on that tinny sound.

BTW, you didn't answer the question... Which piano sound ARE you using?

As to the piano 'spiking' on some hits, well, that sounds a LOT more like a touch issue. Do you use High as the touch setting? Try Medium. Do you have 'spiking' issues on other sounds? If not, there's nothing wrong with the keyboard. I presume it is not just one note that is jumping out (otherwise it might be a key contact problem).

Just how good is your playing touch? Record something into the sequencer, and take a look in a graphical sequencer (it's a lot easier than looking down the data list) after you transfer the SMF. Do you notice any unusual jumps? It sometimes helps to analyze your playing this way, to see if certain licks or playing styles make you whack the keyboard harder, and adjust your playing accordingly.

Me, I'd stay off everything other than the Superior, Natural and Classic pianos, just because they don't have the velocity layers that those three do.

Hope this helps.
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#234794 - 05/24/08 12:48 PM Re: Mixer settings
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
Very helpful advice, Diki. I am using the CLASSIC piano on pg 3 of the e60 piano pages. I am not the best piano clunkerer around, so most of my 'spiking' is probably my fault. Everything else checks out as you suggest. I guess I just don't care for the upper octaves of most digital keyboards - it gets thin up there. That's one good reason to have a 76/88, otherwise I would find myself pressing the octave down button all night.
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#234795 - 05/25/08 12:07 AM Re: Mixer settings
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
I'd suggest maybe sitting down at a real piano (grand if you can) and reacquaint yourself with what it's SUPPOSED to sound like. Perhaps you just have different expectations to the real thing.

Mind you, I tend to think the upper half octave on a 76 is just a hair too loud (but it's not too bright, IMO), compared to miking the average grand (and especially an upright) as the high strings were always furthest away from the mikes... It's something I feel on most sampled pianos I've played (I own Kurzweil, Triton, G70 as my current axes).

Quick question... Does the piano sound overly bright on style Parts to you? Or is it just you? If just you, you MIGHT just be whacking away a bit hard in that top octave or so....

Last resort is to either use a bit of maybe 10k shelf using the per-part EQ (you got that on an E60?), or maybe, if not, on the whole arranger. I sometimes think the whole thing is a bit to treble-y, especially if you are primarily doing early sixties and earlier music (those fifties disks had not much over 10-12kHz, back then!).

See if any of this helps...
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#234796 - 05/26/08 06:11 AM Re: Mixer settings
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
Well, enough about me... and my lack of style and technique.

What I really want to know is what kind of EQ settings do members use on their amps and mixers? My concern was that upper octave piano patches tend to get thin and tinny. How do you address that with your EQ settings?
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#234797 - 05/26/08 06:17 AM Re: Mixer settings
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Cass there is no definitive answer to this EQ stuff.....every gig .....every room, every instrument needs EQ adjustments it comes from experience and BY YOUR OWN EARS. Forget the settings & LISTEN & ADJUST. Then go out and listen from the back of the room & adjust some more.

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#234798 - 05/26/08 09:09 AM Re: Mixer settings
jwyvern Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 365
I put the appropriate settings in the Master setup of Ty2 and that's it, but I do play at home so can't contribute to what should normally be done for outside broadcasts
Except I do tend to agree with Donny.

One thing I do which might be of interest though is that as part of extensive editing of the Ty2 piano to make it sound and handle better to my taste, I make it brightness adjustable. In the Tyros voice editor you can assign a voice filter and compensating volume to the mod wheel.
So I can start off with a bright piano, at zero mod. wheel, going to "too mellow" at the mod.full-on end, and somewhere in between is the right balance for the piece being played.

Maybe a similar principle could be useful as a quick way of helping to compensate for different piano brightness needs in various locations?

John

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#234799 - 05/26/08 01:46 PM Re: Mixer settings
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by cassp:
Well, enough about me... and my lack of style and technique.


Sorry, Cass, it wasn't intended as a dig at your playing, simply Troubleshooting 101... If the pianos don't sound thin and tinny in the style section, then it's something you are doing. If they DO, then it's a problem with the piano sound (or your sound system)...

Thing is, as I said earlier, just how familiar with what a real piano sounds like in that area? Perhaps you just don't have a realistic idea of what it's supposed to sound like. Because, for the life of me, I hear no problems with the upper end of Roland pianos. They sound pretty much like what a piano sounds like, IMO.

What are you playing through? Does everything else sound thin and treble-y? Run a CD player through the same gear with the same settings. Does it sound full and balanced? Usually, I listen to a good well balanced CD (Fagen's The Nightfly is a good place to start) through any system, and make corrections there first. Otherwise you end up using a whole lot of weird EQ on the instrument to compensate for an unbalanced system sound in the first place...

Asking for EQ settings from other people with different amps and speakers (and arrangers) is kind of futile. Unless they have the same system, you won't get the same results.

I took a look through the E60 manual. I couldn't find anything about the per-Part EQ that I have on the G70, so that option is probably out, but you DO have a stereo EQ in the MFX section. So you have a couple of options to EQ the piano sound without affecting the rest of the arranger (presumably, you only want to tone down the piano, you haven't mentioned anything else too treble-y, yet):

You can assign the MFX to the piano Part, and use the Stereo EQ to roll off a bit of maybe 10kHz. Just experiment a bit there...

Or you could go into the voice edit parameters and lower the Cutoff setting a bit. Both of these will roll off some highs.

Anyway... as I said, I wasn't trying to flame your playing, just trying to track down the problem (which I don't hear on my G70). Try these things out (especially balancing your system in the first place) and see if any of it helps...
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#234800 - 05/26/08 06:58 PM Re: Mixer settings
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
No offense taken, Diki. I was just attempting some ?dry humor?

I heard a guy playing a Yamaha S90 at a festival this weekend. His technique wasn't perfect, but the keyboard had a very nice upper octave sound. Perhaps I should take Donny's advice and go listen to a self made demo or something from the back of the room. Things do sound different once you move from the direct stage area.

Lastly, you guys should know by now that I'm a pretty decent player and all that. When I ask this stuff, I'm asking for general opinions and personal anecdotes, not EQ 101 for me. I've actually got my stuff pretty much under control. In this instance and in a few others (none of them arrangers) stage pianos have sounded better than mine, that's all. I must say that when I had the G70, the entire keyboard was a sheer joy to play. The e60 is good, but certainly no G70. That said, I'm sticking with the e60 for the forseeable future.

Now, would ANYONE like to post their EQ setting from their specific amp of mixer?
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#234801 - 05/26/08 09:15 PM Re: Mixer settings
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
OK....

Flat. No EQ at all at the mixer channel input, +3db at 180Hz on the Mastering Tools on the G70 (I like a bit extra presence for the bass).

No EQ on the graphic for the mixer power amp (Yamaha EMX 5000-12 2X500W). 2 JBL SR series 12" and a horn top cabs, Mackie 15" powered sub (just the one!) for the bottom.

I've never played an E60, but we did have some comparison Purgatory Creek files up at roland-arranger of the Natural and Classic pianos. Only thing I heard was that they were darker than my G70, not brighter..

What stage amp are you using? What PA system? What EQ settings are you currently using (including on board Mastering Tools - if the E60 has those)? Does the piano still sound too treble-y if you use good headphones or studio monitors (if you have them)?

Finally, the thing about an arranger is that it isn't JUST a piano. It's everything. So I'd be cautious about laying on a bunch of EQ to the whole thing, for the sake of a piano sound. I'd shoot for getting a good, well balanced sound on the whole arranger first, and then correct the piano EQ using the MFX insert EQ. And I would DEFINITELY use the Recorder to capture your playing, and listen to it out front to make sure that you aren't just getting a weird positional problem.

Final question... Do you turn off the internal speakers when you play out? Try it without them (put a dummy jack in the Headphone output) and see if that makes a difference. The G70 never had speakers, so that MIGHT account for some of the difference you are hearing (built-ins are often a bit shrill and treble-y, IMO)...

Hope this helps.
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#234802 - 05/27/08 06:56 AM Re: Mixer settings
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
One last time... this isn't about me! I'm only interested in hearing what others do to make their rigs sound good.

My equipment is: Mackie 808S with matching i300 speakers, EV120a sub, Soundtech 12" or CM-30 monitors, sometimes a Kustom KMA100 keyboard amp.

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 05-27-2008).]
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#234803 - 05/27/08 12:11 PM Re: Mixer settings
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by cassp:
One last time... this isn't about me! I'm only interested in hearing what others do to make their rigs sound good.


One last time... We LISTEN. To OUR own rigs. We know that adjustments on someone else's rig will NOT work on a different rig. We try things out, and when we find something we like, that's what we use. Simple enough for you?

I'm sorry that these seem "EQ 101' answers, but the truth is, that's an 'EQ newbie' question. Don't bitch about 'newbie' answers to 'newbie' questions, Cass...

You could have tried out every possible permutation of EQ on your own rig in the time you have spent posting here. Truth is, if you don't like the sound of your E60's piano, a bit of EQ is not going to change that. You liked the sound of an S90. If you had heard someone with an E60 that sounded better, you'd have a case. But you can't turn an E60 into an S90 by using EQ!

OK, here's the answer you want.... Cut the highs, boost the bass and mids. Sound better now? Didn't think so....

There is no 'easy fix' for this, no matter HOW many times you ask. Have you actually TRIED anything I've taken the time and trouble to suggest for you, Cass..? If not, it doesn't bode well for anyone else to bother, does it?
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