Just read the all articles in the Latest news, to see how ignorant some people are.
http://www.cledgriffin.fsnet.co.uk/

Bill

Sorry, but Simon is right. I make most of my money of arrangers, but there's no question that when using "styles" and "sounds" of any keyboard, you are extremely limited. Yes, even with Super Articulation... An arranger is a jack of all trades but a master on none.

Ignorant,and unfortunately,influential

Look, guys... Here's the problem.

Many professional musicians DO use arrangers, and get very good results with them, often as good as dedicated WS's and SMFs, with far more interactivity. No argument there at all...

BUT.... VERY many absolutely terrible players use arrangers, people that can barely play a note. Now, stick these guys (and gals!) in front of a WS, and the odds are they will just shake their heads and give up. There is NO WAY that they can make themselves sound good enough to even fool themselves they don't suck, yet alone anyone else. So you'll NEVER have to listen to them play.

But stick them at an arranger, call up a style and hit the One Finger Chord section, and all of a sudden, it sort of sounds like music (even if they haven't the first clue what single finger to press!). This then leads them to the conclusion that they CAN play music, and someone else REALLY needs to hear this! In fact, as many people as possible...

And don't get defensive. We ALL know someone (or two) that will inflict their appalling playing on you if you give them half a chance (uncles, aunts and little old ladies that had a year of piano when they were eight are the worst culprits!). They just are SO proud of themselves, it's so hard to burst their little bubble with the information that, firstly, the chords are all wrong, they played them completely out of time, and the melody was just FUBAR.

But if you didn't have the first clue about music, you MIGHT be able to convince yourself that this was good...

So don't get all bent out of shape, those of you that DO play well, even well enough to make a living. I KNOW you know exactly the kind of person I'm talking about! And THEY are the kind of person Simon Cowell is talking about... (not you!)

Now, if I were the Prime Minister, I wouldn't ban these things completely. No, sir! But I WOULD make it necessary to have a license to play one in public that was obtained by being able to play something decent WITHOUT the auto ACC! That might at least relegate these awful players to their bedrooms and living rooms, where they actually belong!

Everyone deserves the opportunity to make music for themselves, and arrangers are the best way for non-musicians to achieve this. I've no problem with this... It's when they convince themselves they CAN play, and make you listen to it that I start to have a problem!

And so does Simon

With the introduction of electronic computer driven music......this is only the beginning & its all still in its infancy. In years to come making music the way we do today will be a thing of the past dont kid your self to a hanging on attitude of the old days ...believe me its all coming very soon & it will change before your eyes taking Music Faking to a
"Whole 'Nother Level" my friends....shun it or embrace it but it will be part of our lives as sure as day. We're just stuck in Music Purgatory because of our baby boomer status in the world in between the Two World of then & now!.

The artist mentioned in the parents reply, IS a professional musician and CAN play with out any backings.
Remember Simon Cowl didn’t even let her start playing.
Here is a link to her web site http://www.sarahfoley.co.uk/

Bill

Well, whatever this 'magic bullet' is, it can't come soon enough for me and Simon!

Anything that can turn these awful players into something even a music lover could enjoy can't get here soon enough!

Oh, wait... There IS something already that can do this. It's called a STEREO, and it requires NO SKILL WHATSOEVER. You just hit Play, and great music comes out...!

Amazing, isn't it..?

We ought to get one of these into the hands of all those bedroom arranger players in exchange for their keyboards...

After that awful Stars Wars clip, can you blame him?

And just remember, the show is called 'Britain's got TALENT', not 'Britain's got an arranger'

You want to demonstrate your talent, sit down at a piano.

You want to demonstrate your arranger, get a job in a music store!

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 04-18-2008).]

Forget a workstation. Sit them down to a real grand piano. Now there's where you have to know what you're doing. I've played solo piano, and with bands and orchestras for years. However in the retirement community market, an arranger is the way to go. They want an interactive show. The arranger is the best way to produce this. In the places I play, all the other guys use arrangers too and I always ger"Wow, you're way better than all the other guys who play here." Once again, it's not the instrument so much as it is the player. Just my humble opinion.

Ciao,

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

FUBAR?

Arranger KB's & arranger Players are here to stay....you cant stop technology. Just wait & see whats around the corner. This aint nothing.

I think it's already here...midi files.. pop in a midi you've downloaded and pretend you're playing. I know a couple guys that do this, they can't even play happy birthday without a midi file. But they sing and they get work...not a lot, not top shelf but hey

So what does FUBAR mean?

Look, John, we get it. But there is NO technology now, nor will there ever be, that can stop someone from making it sound terrible.

Stop being defensive, for Pete's sake! We already KNOW how good arrangers can be. We use them ourselves, OK? We GET IT...

But as the basic ability to play becomes less and less important, more and more of the music made will be TERRIBLE. And there is NO technology that can stop that (other than the STOP button!)

You can put Photoshop in the hands of a blind person... It's not going to turn them into Van Goch

Put an arranger, or whatever the NEXT big thing is, into the hands of a tone deaf, rhythmically challenged non-musician, and out will come very technically polished GARBAGE. Nothing in the world can prevent that...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FUBAR

Jeez, we got to do all the Googling for you?

Ya sometimes after a nap I'm just real slow I didn't even think of google, I do feel a little foolish now
but thanks

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 04-18-2008).]

Just a thought - who really give a S**** what Simon Cowell thinks anyway.

Hammer

Thank you Hammer!!
DonM

One Two Cha Cha Cha.

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

1.make it easy for them to sound great.(1 finger play)

2.teach them what they CAN'T do on their
current keyboard. which makes them want to get the one that will let them do it.
(that new style,voice thingamigger etc.)

3. sell them that keyboard

it has nothing to do with talent value but only sales. its the same in the "professional keyboard world". there are guys out there spinning records(cds) and being called musicians. hey, what ever it takes to make a living (i guess). its a whole new world.
my personal music world was never affected by the simon cowells of the world. its just an opinion negative or positive . just do your best and if its meant to be it will happen.
songman, you are right One Two Cha Cha Cha

This is the lady that did not get a chance to play for BGT who was shunted off before she had a chance to play http://www.sarahfoley.co.uk/videos.htm

SHE IS VERY TALENTED but after hearing the kind of music she plays i am glad that she was not allowed to play on TV as she would still have been kicked off. This music is for the much older generation and just not right for TV. Its better for the judges to have booted her off before she played a note becuase at least she can still hold her head high and maintain her reputation. Unfortunately they most certainly would have booted her off if she had actually played and Simon etc would have critiscised the hell out of her and the organ.

If you want to make it in music you have to know your audience.

She plays all types of music; the video on her site was played at a venue that was attended by a more mature audience.
She would not have played that type of music for a TV show that featured Simon Cowell.
Regards

Bill

It just makes you wonder what she could have achieved on an arranger that she couldn't have done just as well on a piano.

If she HAS chops, and can sing, why gild the lilly?

Simon wouldn't have gonged that...

Some of us have "chops" but don't play piano.
I never played piano. I could learn I suppose, but I don't choose to. I play arranger. And pretty well too.
I can play organ, or trumpet, or guitar, or bass, but not piano.
You CAN be a musician without being a piano player.
DonM

I agree with Don,

I'm a good Arranger KB player NOT a traditional trained Piano player. I also play about 8 other instruments also. That's why I dont care about 76 keys that much.....61 is fine for me & my needs for now. I cant wait for the Tyros 3 to come to market, I have a feeling we are going to be blown away by it for sure......but what do I know?

Yep, that about sums up how I feel about it.

Ian

In any subject if you want to excel then you need to learn the rules from the most competent teacher possible.

In most disciplines there are those who are highly qualified, those who have learnt to the best of their ability, and those who are self taught, with varying degrees of competence.

I’m sure that each person could justify to their own satisfaction, their level of competence in their chosen subject, which may or may not be accepted by another person, depending on that person’s level of arrogance.

Just my opinion.
Fred Wren

I guess, though, that once you decide to perform in public, playing to your OWN satisfaction is no longer enough...

You HAVE to satisfy the listener, as well! Whether it's your relatives, or Simon Cowell...

That's one of the problems with arrangers. It can lead those with NO musical ability whatsoever to assume they DO, inflict it on the public, and then we all stand around and wonder WHY arrangers have such a poor rap. They certainly didn't get it for no reason whatsoever!

To be honest, I think the 'arrogance' comes from deciding for YOURSELF that you have 'talent', no matter what other people say...!

If a person is making a living, playing an arranger to his own satisfaction, without any musical ability whatsoever, and not satisfying his listening public, perhaps he did the right thing to ignore what other people had to say about his talent.
Fred Wren

Arrangers are a means to an end. They provide artificially what the musician cannot provide naturally - for better or worse. Give me a great drummer, bass player guitarist and horn player at my beck and call and I'll drop the arranger.

As for the video of the young girl playing, she sounds as good as a theatre organist. Is what she's doing any different. Long live the organ. I'd prefer an integrated 2-manual keyboard (and maybe some pedals) to two separate keyboards any day.

Fred, take a look at what you've written here...

What possible chance does anyone have of making a living playing music if he DOESN'T satisfy his listening public?

I'm sorry, but to pull off a paid gig, you HAVE to have some musical ability. It doesn't matter one iota if you have been trained or not, it doesn't change whether you have ability or not. LOTS of 'trained' players with little or no ability, and lots of untrained players at the top of their game...

But you want to make an audience happy...? Then you have to have SOME kind of ability. Or be a DJ...

The arranger's bad rep comes from folks with NO ability still inflicting their playing on the public. It sure as heck didn't come from GOOD players, now did it?

Diki,
You wrote.

“I guess, though, that once you decide to perform in public, playing to your OWN satisfaction is no longer enough...
You HAVE to satisfy the listener, as well! Whether it's your relatives, or Simon Cowell...
That's one of the problems with arrangers. It can lead those with NO musical ability whatsoever to assume they DO, inflict it on the public, and then we all stand around and wonder WHY arrangers have such a poor rap. They certainly didn't get it for no reason whatsoever!
To be honest, I think the 'arrogance' comes from deciding for YOURSELF that you have 'talent', no matter what other people say...!”

I replied, using your terminology,

“If a person is making a living, playing an arranger to his own satisfaction, without any musical ability whatsoever, and not satisfying his listening public, perhaps he did the right thing to ignore what other people had to say about his talent.”

Your posts, with the point your making, seems to hold a contradiction.

1.“That's one of the problems with arrangers. It can lead those with NO musical ability whatsoever to assume they DO, inflict it on the public, and then we all stand around and wonder WHY arrangers have such a poor rap. They certainly didn't get it for no reason
whatsoever!”

2.“The arranger's bad rep comes from folks with NO ability still inflicting their playing on the public. It sure as heck didn't come from GOOD players, now did it?”

3.“to pull off a paid gig, you HAVE to have some musical ability”

I feel your problem, if there is one, with arranger players, with no musical ability whatsoever, not satisfying the listener, and getting paid gigs; could resolve it’s self.
Fred Wren.

Actually, Fred, I don't know ANY arranger players with NO ability holding down a gig. Never have. Do you?

My response is to all these posts from players that seem bent out of shape when their instrument of choice gets a bad reputation precisely BECAUSE really terrible players try to perform in public (although I doubt any of them hold a payed position for more than one gig!) under the impression that, just because they THINK they sound good, they actually are!

The whole reason arrangers are SO popular with 'home' players is the instant gratification thing. Got one finger? You too can sound like a pro (or so you think!). And it's THESE players that give the arranger it's reputation. Got a problem with that? What can you do? You can't stop non-players from buying them!

I just don't get it... A piano in the hands of a great player is a wonderful thing. But in the hands of a non-player it is a horror. But somehow, piano players don't run around moaning about how their precious piano gets no respect..! I wonder why that is?

Maybe it's just because they are less concerned about the instrument getting the respect, and more concerned about themselves getting it...

I have NEVER railed about non-musicians holding down a gig. If you can keep the job, good for you! There are some EXCELLENT musicians using arrangers full time. There are some excellent singers and entertainers using arrangers to get themselves a polished accompaniment that they might NEVER be able to play real time. But it doesn't make the show any less entertaining. Or 'legitimate'. If you can keep a crowd happy, then by definition, you HAVE talent...

And then there's your Uncle Bob, who is tone deaf, can't count, and has never read a manual. But he has a PSR...

Be afraid... Be VERY afraid.

And get mad at HIM, not the messenger...

Finally, Uncle Bob...the arranger can add new dimension to your sound by giving you the advantage of sounding like a full band, all to your audiences delight.



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-20-2008).]

Diki
“And then there's your Uncle Bob, who is tone deaf, can't count, and has never read a manual. But he has a PSR...

Be afraid... Be VERY afraid. And get mad at HIM, not the messenger…”


That seems like incitement towards some one musically retarded,
What are you afraid of ?
Fred Wren

So what if someone playing is not that good right now....its a never ending learning process.....if all the ego driven so called "pros" here were so good they would be making millions of dollars, concert tours, selling thousands of CD's, etc etc ......but I I doubt it,... yet they continually put down people only trying to enjoy making music for themselves or others.
If you play good or not so good who cares....you can get better, you can still enjoy, & you can look forward to playing every day also.

Ye God's...! It's like a Three Stooges episode...

YOU guys are the ones bitching about the poor reputation of the arranger (not me, or anyone I know). I'm merely trying to point out where it comes from.

If that hits a little close to the bone, sorry...

But trying to use the public's (or other musicians') 'ignorance' or 'intimidation' or 'jealousy' as the reason is absurd..! There's only ONE reason why anyone could POSSIBLY dislike an arranger. A BAD PLAYER.

So, if you AREN'T one of these, you've got nothing to worry about, do you? And if you ARE, well, you've already bought the best possible tool to help you improve, haven't you?

Why ARE you so defensive..? Me, I could care less...

And I would have thought that only someone musically retarded would get upset about it...

That's not YOU, is it...? Didn't think so. So why the outrage?

Those types of players ARE where the rep comes from, like it or not.

You don't blame the gun, you blame the shooter...

Wow, this IS a depressing thread. You're all going around in circles saying the same NOTHING over and over. No need to bad-mouth each other since we all are great playing pros. And for those who don't read the SZ, they'll never know...



Go Red Wings!!!

Fred
“In any subject if you want to excel then you need to learn the rules from the most competent teacher possible.
In most disciplines there are those who are highly qualified, those who have learnt to the best of their ability, and those who are self taught, with varying degrees of competence.
I’m sure that each person could justify to their own satisfaction, their level of competence in their chosen subject, which may or may not be accepted by another person, depending on that person’s level of arrogance.”

Thank you Diki for your contribution to my post, you have helped to confirm for me, what I thought.

Good-bye,
Fred Wren