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#232471 - 04/18/08 12:39 PM
Re: If your depressed dont read this
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14494
Loc: NW Florida
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Look, guys... Here's the problem. Many professional musicians DO use arrangers, and get very good results with them, often as good as dedicated WS's and SMFs, with far more interactivity. No argument there at all... BUT.... VERY many absolutely terrible players use arrangers, people that can barely play a note. Now, stick these guys (and gals!) in front of a WS, and the odds are they will just shake their heads and give up. There is NO WAY that they can make themselves sound good enough to even fool themselves they don't suck, yet alone anyone else. So you'll NEVER have to listen to them play. But stick them at an arranger, call up a style and hit the One Finger Chord section, and all of a sudden, it sort of sounds like music (even if they haven't the first clue what single finger to press!). This then leads them to the conclusion that they CAN play music, and someone else REALLY needs to hear this! In fact, as many people as possible...  And don't get defensive. We ALL know someone (or two) that will inflict their appalling playing on you if you give them half a chance (uncles, aunts and little old ladies that had a year of piano when they were eight are the worst culprits!). They just are SO proud of themselves, it's so hard to burst their little bubble with the information that, firstly, the chords are all wrong, they played them completely out of time, and the melody was just FUBAR. But if you didn't have the first clue about music, you MIGHT be able to convince yourself that this was good... So don't get all bent out of shape, those of you that DO play well, even well enough to make a living. I KNOW you know exactly the kind of person I'm talking about! And THEY are the kind of person Simon Cowell is talking about... (not you!) Now, if I were the Prime Minister, I wouldn't ban these things completely. No, sir! But I WOULD make it necessary to have a license to play one in public that was obtained by being able to play something decent WITHOUT the auto ACC! That might at least relegate these awful players to their bedrooms and living rooms, where they actually belong! Everyone deserves the opportunity to make music for themselves, and arrangers are the best way for non-musicians to achieve this. I've no problem with this... It's when they convince themselves they CAN play, and make you listen to it that I start to have a problem!  And so does Simon 
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#232476 - 04/18/08 01:18 PM
Re: If your depressed dont read this
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Member
Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 892
Loc: Baltimore, MD USA
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Forget a workstation. Sit them down to a real grand piano. Now there's where you have to know what you're doing. I've played solo piano, and with bands and orchestras for years. However in the retirement community market, an arranger is the way to go. They want an interactive show. The arranger is the best way to produce this. In the places I play, all the other guys use arrangers too and I always ger"Wow, you're way better than all the other guys who play here." Once again, it's not the instrument so much as it is the player. Just my humble opinion. Ciao, Joe ------------------ Songman55 Joe Ayala
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PSR S950, PSR S900, Roland RD 700, Yamaha C3 6'Grand, Sennheiser E 935 mic, several recording mics including a Neuman U 87, Bose L1 Compact, Roland VS 2480 24 Track Recorder Joe Ayala
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#232477 - 04/18/08 01:30 PM
Re: If your depressed dont read this
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Member
Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1208
Loc: Syracuse NY
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#232480 - 04/18/08 01:55 PM
Re: If your depressed dont read this
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14494
Loc: NW Florida
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Look, John, we get it. But there is NO technology now, nor will there ever be, that can stop someone from making it sound terrible. Stop being defensive, for Pete's sake! We already KNOW how good arrangers can be. We use them ourselves, OK? We GET IT... But as the basic ability to play becomes less and less important, more and more of the music made will be TERRIBLE. And there is NO technology that can stop that (other than the STOP button!) You can put Photoshop in the hands of a blind person... It's not going to turn them into Van Goch  Put an arranger, or whatever the NEXT big thing is, into the hands of a tone deaf, rhythmically challenged non-musician, and out will come very technically polished GARBAGE. Nothing in the world can prevent that...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#232497 - 04/20/08 01:44 AM
Re: If your depressed dont read this
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14494
Loc: NW Florida
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Originally posted by Retired: If a person is making a living, playing an arranger to his own satisfaction, without any musical ability whatsoever, and not satisfying his listening public, perhaps he did the right thing to ignore what other people had to say about his talent. Fred Wren Fred, take a look at what you've written here... What possible chance does anyone have of making a living playing music if he DOESN'T satisfy his listening public? I'm sorry, but to pull off a paid gig, you HAVE to have some musical ability. It doesn't matter one iota if you have been trained or not, it doesn't change whether you have ability or not. LOTS of 'trained' players with little or no ability, and lots of untrained players at the top of their game... But you want to make an audience happy...? Then you have to have SOME kind of ability. Or be a DJ... The arranger's bad rep comes from folks with NO ability still inflicting their playing on the public. It sure as heck didn't come from GOOD players, now did it? 
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#232498 - 04/20/08 04:34 AM
Re: If your depressed dont read this
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Member
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 160
Loc: England
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Diki, You wrote.
“I guess, though, that once you decide to perform in public, playing to your OWN satisfaction is no longer enough... You HAVE to satisfy the listener, as well! Whether it's your relatives, or Simon Cowell... That's one of the problems with arrangers. It can lead those with NO musical ability whatsoever to assume they DO, inflict it on the public, and then we all stand around and wonder WHY arrangers have such a poor rap. They certainly didn't get it for no reason whatsoever! To be honest, I think the 'arrogance' comes from deciding for YOURSELF that you have 'talent', no matter what other people say...!”
I replied, using your terminology,
“If a person is making a living, playing an arranger to his own satisfaction, without any musical ability whatsoever, and not satisfying his listening public, perhaps he did the right thing to ignore what other people had to say about his talent.”
Your posts, with the point your making, seems to hold a contradiction.
1.“That's one of the problems with arrangers. It can lead those with NO musical ability whatsoever to assume they DO, inflict it on the public, and then we all stand around and wonder WHY arrangers have such a poor rap. They certainly didn't get it for no reason whatsoever!”
2.“The arranger's bad rep comes from folks with NO ability still inflicting their playing on the public. It sure as heck didn't come from GOOD players, now did it?” 3.“to pull off a paid gig, you HAVE to have some musical ability”
I feel your problem, if there is one, with arranger players, with no musical ability whatsoever, not satisfying the listener, and getting paid gigs; could resolve it’s self. Fred Wren.
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FredUK
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#232499 - 04/20/08 09:55 AM
Re: If your depressed dont read this
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14494
Loc: NW Florida
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Actually, Fred, I don't know ANY arranger players with NO ability holding down a gig. Never have. Do you?  My response is to all these posts from players that seem bent out of shape when their instrument of choice gets a bad reputation precisely BECAUSE really terrible players try to perform in public (although I doubt any of them hold a payed position for more than one gig!) under the impression that, just because they THINK they sound good, they actually are! The whole reason arrangers are SO popular with 'home' players is the instant gratification thing. Got one finger? You too can sound like a pro (or so you think!). And it's THESE players that give the arranger it's reputation. Got a problem with that? What can you do? You can't stop non-players from buying them! I just don't get it... A piano in the hands of a great player is a wonderful thing. But in the hands of a non-player it is a horror. But somehow, piano players don't run around moaning about how their precious piano gets no respect..! I wonder why that is? Maybe it's just because they are less concerned about the instrument getting the respect, and more concerned about themselves getting it...  I have NEVER railed about non-musicians holding down a gig. If you can keep the job, good for you! There are some EXCELLENT musicians using arrangers full time. There are some excellent singers and entertainers using arrangers to get themselves a polished accompaniment that they might NEVER be able to play real time. But it doesn't make the show any less entertaining. Or 'legitimate'. If you can keep a crowd happy, then by definition, you HAVE talent... And then there's your Uncle Bob, who is tone deaf, can't count, and has never read a manual. But he has a PSR... Be afraid... Be VERY afraid.  And get mad at HIM, not the messenger...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#232505 - 04/20/08 03:08 PM
Re: If your depressed dont read this
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Senior Member
Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
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