A rumor is GC is closing stores and in financial trouble.... Wouldn't surprise me. http://money.aol.com/creditdebt/article/...324160309990001

I heard a rumor that Warwick, RI and Natick, MA may be done soon.



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God Bless,
Mikey

www.mikeymaestro.com
www.myspace.com/kidconcert
www.balloonanimal.com
www.1000colorcards.com

Its about time, it was certainly inevitable.......maybe we'll get lucky and someone will open a Music store that caters to musicians & can offer current models in all areas & gear for a hands on sales approach like the good old days for a change vs customers being overcome by Catalogs & Internet sales.

Much to the opposite. The closing of a big retailer such as GC will mean even less availability locally. Especially the keyboards we discuss, are not normally found at GC; I've seen more at Sam Ash. But to close a large, big box store like GC means the overall market is either saturated (which it isn't) or shrinking (which is more likely). Costs keep stores open or close them. We'll more likely see more little guitar shops, but keyboard shops - I doubt it. Start collecting those catalogs...

That would not be good news. These big chain stores come in and run the local guys out of business and then they wind up folding. This happened with Mars Music a few years ago. Dan, do you still work at GC and if so do you know anything about their status?

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

The little guy doesn't have any chance anymore being gobbled up by corporate saturation.

[This message has been edited by John DiLeo (edited 04-14-2008).]

No .. I do not work at GC....

I did go back to work for them November 2006.. It was a horrible experience. Prior to leaving, GC changed all of their salespeople to commission. When I went back to the commission scenerio, it was a very cut throat, look out for yourself mentality vs.. look out for the customer..

I work for a large independent. I believe we have a better handle on things because of the following differences

1. We carry Pianos and keyboards but do not sell Workstations because of the internet and our market.

2.We cater to the market. Places like Guitar Center HAVE to buy the same goods and inventory for all the stores no matter what the market.

3. Owner pays cash for everything that comes in the back door. Instead of interest paid there are 3-10% discounts received for quick payment.

4. Employees are paid a great hourly wage and a small commission on serialized gear. Bonuses are given twice a year based on profit margins. Employees are empowered to make a deal according to business needs. IE high dollar items sell for less during slower months. Want a PRS for well under MAP. Shop in February, LOL

5. We balance low margin gear with high margin sheet music.

6. We don't carry everything for everyone.

7. Everyone is a manager. We all decide what and how much to order, not the owner as we are on the floor and know what sells and what dpes not.

I do not believe places like Guitar Center can be as flexible and are more corporate policy oriented for all locations. All geographic locations are not the same.

Carrying a few $3000 Motifs will not fly in a smaller area. Nor will DAW software. You have to know what will sell and how much. The GCs of the world apply the same formulas to all locations. Thats what caused Brook Mays to go belly up.

Now I hear Best Buy will become the New GC becasue margins are better for MI than TVs.They will have the same problem GC had.

I like the idea of GC having issues. The large Vendors have all buy dismissed the little guy and it will be the little guy who will become their biggest customers.

Gibson blew out the independents by strong arming them in to carrying too much product and making demands on Wall space. Without GC they will suffer as well. Fender outsells Gibson 2-1,

Its going to get interesting.

That's not good news those are the 2 GC stores I visit, one near my home, the other near my day job. That's too bad, I was able to demo a number of arranger boards at those stores including the Tyros2.



[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 04-14-2008).]

I suppose it's a sign of our evolution to an internet controlled marketing system.
Regarding Best Buy, I have totally crossed them off my list of stores to consider when I am shopping for something, because of their policy of bait and switch. Several times I have rushed down to take advantage of a great bargain they advertise, and when I get there it's always the same story: "Oh they were gone in ten minutes, let me show you this . . ."
No thanks,
DonM

Regards the Best Buy (and similar stores) policy...

I used to work for my state Consumer Affairs dept. so I'm fairly familiar with consumer law. The trick with these stores is this. Go down to your local library and photostat the state consumer laws. When they pull their "bait and switch" or "out of stock" or "we don't give rainchecks" I tell them politely but firmly: "No way, Jose!" Please review the consumer laws which I have printed out here.

It works every time! This is what I do myself and I carry them around with me everywhere, because this stuff happens way more than it should.

Ref the GC situation. I can see it going a step further than that. In the near future you're probably going to see even fewer pro arranger keyboards on the market. Has anyone noticed that no one these days takes the time to learn or play professionally (OR sing even...watch American Idol). Music and performing will somehow be integrated into a computer (which is a natural seque as computers do everything for us now anyway).

Meantime, I'm NOT throwing away any old keyboards!

..moved to new thread at Dan's request...

chas



[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 04-14-2008).]

I think there is more talent in playing an arranger at a high grade level with all its parts being controlled by the player at once then just an organ, piano, guitar etc, etc, which is just the one instrument ....it really takes an exceptional skill to put it all together especially at a pro level using a high tech arranger KB to have a great sound.
Maybe some day I will be good enough to be called a pro arranger player like many of the super players here on the SZ like Donny nj, Don M, Fran, Gary D, Uncle Dave, Ian, & Diki & so many more here that I'm sure everyone knows.

Forget the arranger features...I would take the sounds of my SD1 over any keyboard on the market. Piano, Strings, Horns , Organs etc..
I like it as a creative tool, but sound for sound.. I wouldn't use anything else.

Just my opinion.

Let's try to keep this thread on target.
If anyone has anything they want to express about what is professional or not professional or whether they can play or not play, start your own thread.

Dan,

I just saw on Good Morning America this morning where Best Buy was being taken over by a video rental company. Amazing! I suspect that GC in Towson will be around for a while, but eventually I anticipate they will go the same route as MARS and be outa' here.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

That's interesting. Best Buy is and has reportedly announced the intention of adding musical instruments.... Annapolis Best Buy store will be the 1st store to implement musical instruments in Maryland.
Video Rental Company ... BlockBuster ?

I think the story was blockbuster buying out circuit city. http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=4646222

anyone have a link for the best buy adding instruments link?

Also in my area we have an 8 percent sales tax so it is usually cheaper to buy from Musicians friend with free shipping and no sales tax. Even though it is the same price same company local out the door sales have to collect the tax.

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 04-14-2008).]

Let's face it, how many (of us) have used the big box stores as a demo station and then came home and ordered the item over the internet because of the tax advantage or free shipping or even a deeper discount? What's the solution?

if sam ash or guitar center wants to buy my little keyboard shop. I'll put the for sale sign out

Guitar Center was recently purchased by Bain Capital and the person who owns Bain Capital is none other than former presidential hopeful Mitt Romney. I was recently told from Guitar Center management that all Guitar Centers nationwide will discontinue the practice of accepting "bartering" on products from customers. In other words, no more dickering! None!! If Mitt and Bain Capital hold on to Guitar Center I think there is a possibility of turning things around for them financially. He has stated himself that every business venture he has undertaken has proven successful. Hopefully Guitar Center will be another feather in his cap he can boast about too.

Best,
Mike

Frank, just hold on a minute, your store is not for sale and can't be. I think you're great prices would disappear if one of the big guys bought you out.

I have NEVER demoed a keyboard (or anything else, AFAIK) at a store, then gone and got it online. You keep doing that, and sooner or later (mostly sooner) you CAN'T demo things in a store, and HAVE to do what so many of us are faced with right now. Buy the damn thing just to be able to demo it...

Perhaps this trend is exactly WHY stores won't stock many MOTL and TOTL arrangers any more. Too many trying, but not buying.

Keeping a good relation with a store is pretty important. There have been times when the local store has saved my a$$ by giving me a loaner for something that went on the fritz (that I had bought there) for a gig that day. Try getting THAT from an online retailer! My only problem is I tend to keep my keyboards quite a lot longer than many here, so they don't get quite the turnover they would like

I have bought things online that I've tried a friend's one out, and my local don't normally stock it, so they dislike returns. But if you try it in a store, just how much is that experience worth...? Quite a chunk of money, I'd say. Shipping and restocking fees can make returns to online vendors quite an expensive habit. At least the local store, although he charges a bit more, allows you to make SURE it's the right decision before you buy. No returns needed - and THAT saves you money.

I wonder just how many of us that have returned or sold a very recent purchase from online would have NEVER bought it in the first place if they had only had an opportunity to play it in the store a couple of times, first?

I know that online, you can save maybe 10-15% over a local dealer, but factor in how much further you'll have to drive NEXT time to try one out before you buy, or the restocking fee for an unwanted online purchase, and it doesn't seem so high a price to pay, anymore!

Thanks for adding to my comments, Diki. That's pretty much what I'm getting at. Both of my present keyboards were bought online, but they are used items from private parties. But when I bought my G70, I went straight to my local dealer who knows me well over many years of doing business. The deal I got from him was better than anything I could get at any GC or online store or even eBay. And, as you said, the service factor is worth so much.

Too bad the manufacturers make it so difficult for smaller retailers to stock a small amount of TOTL and MOTL arrangers. As was said, when you can't demo them, it makes your choices much smaller.

I too like to buy things in a store. Yes, I can sometimes get a better deal online. I bought my Neumann U 87 mic on ebay because it was almost a thousand dollars less that GC. However, I bought my Tyros at GC because they had a good price on it. I like to visit a music store fairly often so I know the guys there and can talk to them and get advice when I need something. I used to try to deal with local merchants, but most of them are out of business now. My approach now when I need a new piece of gear is to decide where it makes the most sense to buy it from. So I do hope the internet doesn't drive all the stores out of business.

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

Is it just me, but I don't consider Guitar Center a "local" store. Even though it is located nearby.
The local stores have all but disappeared from my area in favor of the chains that all handle the same merchandise.

Thanks Mike. The story on ABC was in the cobwebs of my mind, which for some reason confused the names.

As for the sales tax, it's increasing just about everywhere, and some states are nailing internet sales with their local sales tax as well. They did the same thing with the mail order business when they created a reciprocal agreement between states for collecting taxes on items sold out of state. Maryland just jumped from 5 to 6 percent, which is a 20% percent increase.

Thanks again,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

I'm not sure how a small local music retailer can compete on any level with Guitar Center when it comes to pricing. While I'm certain Cassp's deal from his local retailer was a good one, I highly doubt it was cheaper than GC's price could have been had he negotiated a bit.

Guitar Center is the Wal-Mart of musical gear and as such they often dictate how much they will pay for a certain product to carry it in their stores. What that means is they buy the product from the manufacturers at a much lower price than any mom and pop store can (typically 10%-15% or more cheaper). That gives GC the ability to sell at much lower prices if they choose to which isn't always the case. Of course you can negotiate the price at GC and if you're a good haggler, you'll get a deal that few if any other stores can match except maybe Sam Ash.

FYI... Only GC managers have the ability to override their computer pricing system and give you the lowest pricing available (salesman don't get to see the true cost GC pays for the item). Unless you have a favorite GC salesman you always deal with, bypass them and go straight to the store manager. Also, bear in mind that many of the sales employees at the large chains don't know much if anything about what they are selling to you. If you require help or extensive customer support after the sale, pay a bit more and buy from your local music store and you'll be better off. You'll spend more but in the end you'll get good service. Service is something seriously lacking at many stores these days, GC not excluded.

Small local stores compete successfully with Guitar center all the time. MAP prices in may cases allow for a 30% margin. It's no wonder Best Buy wants in!!! MI margins are MUCH higher than TVs and receivers. Internet pricing is still healthy for the local music store.
That said some local stores failed when the big box came to town. When you realize the local music stores (and early GC) made 50% margins plus on guitars at one time and 40% on keys and PAs. Mass merchandising brought that down to 30% give or take a couple points. The stores that were heavily leveraged and had debt service based on 50% margins fell by the wayside. Those who paid as they went and carried non traditional high margin music items such as Sheet music and Pianos along with a variety of MI product GC does not carry still operate in the black.

In my store everyone made and or still earn a living playing music. No one is under 40 years old and all make over $10 an hour plus. Some of us have pensions and other income and work because we want to not because we have to. That makes a huge difference when dealing with customers as well as the lack of a straight commission structure. Would people rather deal with that or some 20 something who knows nothing outside of drop D power chords, and cannot tell you what MIDI is or the history of a Fender Strat.

We don't sell work stations any more becasue we were demoing them all day and selling NONE. I suspect they were buying on the net to save 5%. We floor what we sell in the store. If someone needs to save the tax we either sell for less or let them but on the net. All of our computers have online access so we can check prices right there. Many times we will live with a 25% margin to match the Internet price on high dollar items.

Many people will buy at the brick and mortar because we will honor the warranty for them, and deal with the vendor should they have an issue. We will not service an internet bought product unless its a regular customer.

We are not worried about Best Buy. They will have the same model as GC. Low paid kids and high turnover.

Summer NAMM is going to be interesting with the Best Buy development.

(BTW Mitt Romney is not with Bain any more.)

I'm not surprised to hear this. We have a large GC in Fort Myers, and I kept looking forward to going to the store, kept believing that next time I was going to find what I wanted and get some better understanding.

Wrong, it was always a miserable experience, with weird sales people who did not know much and certainly did not help you. They never had any of the higher end arrangers. I never bought a thing, even though I'm as much of a gear junky as anyone.

Unfortunately, you neither know me nor the store I bought it from, so your assumptions are WAY OFF. I would hazard a guess that many here, including myself, have extensive knowledge of pricing - retail, discount, wholesale, etc. When i say i got an exceptional deal, believe me it was exceptional. GC will not always match prices, not even the manager if you have a special relationship with a local dealer who is willing to give you the best deal possible.

I heard that GC is closing some of their C market stores. They have A B C markets with A being big city stores. Also Musician's Friend and Guitar Center are owned by the same company I believe....

A sales person that I know since the Mars days and now with GC, told me when I talked to him a month ago that GC was bought by another company, and then he told me no more discounts or deals like he used to do before for me, he told me that the policy now is that they will match prices or maybe a 5% discount with purchases over $500.00.

As far as GC being own by another company I don't know if it is true or not, maybe they are trying to cover up, but the truth is I'm not getting anymore discounts so bye bye GC, I'm buying from my neighborhood store: http://www.lancasterpromusic.com/



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www.tagworld.com/vicentelopez


HE'S COMING, MAKE MUSIC, GET READY!

I just got a new Best Buy here about 3 miles from my store and only 1/2 block away from a new Guitar Center. The Best Buy has the new Musical Instrument Store within the store section.
Like someone here posted, it is just exactly like having another Guitar Center in Best Buy. There were all the Yamaha Motifs, Roland Fantoms, Korg M3's, Gibson, Fender, Yamaha, DW, Behringer, etc. etc. But......There was one guy working in the Dept. and I watched him and I didn't think he was any different then the typical GC sales guys. Everything was marked at MAP prices and there weren't any arranger keyboards to be found accept for a Yamaha YPG625.
As a friend of mine from Korg said today
" we've seen the growth of the chain everything stores over the past 10 years. Those little stores that didn't have a "nitch" are probably not around anymore." The feeling in the industry is that this growth of big box chain stores, selling instruments, computers, TV's, Phones, etc. etc. has probably come to a head now. People who need and desire service will still come into stores like mine. Prices are the same but service.........not even close. I pray he's correct.


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George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

George I pray he is too because none of us could exist without service.

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

George will be fine, as will owners of top rate restaurants, vehicle repair establishments, etc.

I don't patronize chain restaurants, Guitar Center or the like. I order from Musicians Friend only when I can't get something locally.

Support you local independent businesses, folks. It's a hard way to make a living, but the good ones deserve our business!


Russ

What I think is going to be interesting is how certain manufacturers will be effected.

For instance, I think that Paul Reed Smith Guitars would not be where they are today without the GC expansion. Suppose GC does start closing stores and PRS doesn't have anywhere else to go ?

I'd put Behringer in that category as well.

I guess they call that the walmart effect.

Dan01,
I recall that I bought the first Tyros 2 you sold and shipped to me. Do you still have a mucis store?
Bebp

Thanks for asking and yes, you were the 1st. But I did close my store Nov.1st 2006.
Yamaha was one company that I feel really screwed me... But they were not getting money from the big boys, so they squeezed the little boys.
Regards... Dan

Dan, interesting (to me at least) is the fact that the largest PRS dealer is Bob Wilcutt Guitars here in Lexington. I had the PRS people tell me that at several NAMM's.

He sells most on the web, I think. Bob is a "big fish" at NAMM. The guys from all the major manufacturers watch the door for him to arrive. He has an awsome "private stock" collection. Can't see how he makes any money with that much inventory, but he must.

Go figure.

Russ

Inventory draws more customer who then buy higher margin accessories. The idea is to get them INTO the store. We have no trouble with that since we are located in a MAll. Some say thats expensive but the lack of having to advertise more than makes up for the higher lease cost. Anyone who is in the mall passes the store. Many enter it and purchase something they would not have otherwise if they had to travel a mile down the road.

The downside is the kids who are waiting for movies or hanging out wanting to play the gear.That has to be managed more then if we were a stand alone store.

25-30% of what we carry cannot be bought at a chain store. And yes we can and do offer lower prices then Guitar Center. We have no one to answer to. IF we make $200 on a high end Taylor instead of a $1000 on a particular day we can make the sale. Independents have far more flexibility depending on the Manufacturer. Some margins are already to thin. We try not to carry those lines.

A long time ago when I worked in a mall piano store, we would stick a 1/4 inch jack into the headphone input, so that when kids tried to play a keyboard or digital piano, they would not hear anything , look confused and walk away.