Man I am having issue making a decision on an arranger. I am very familiar with the Yamahas as I work for a dealer and can buy then for $100 above cost.

However I really like the Roland G-70 over the s900 and even the Tyros. The sounds are great on the Yamaha. I have only heard the online demos of the G-70. I can get a used g-70 for $2000.

Any ideas? I did play the Korgs but liked the Yamaha better.

Basically, you've got to use YOUR ears, and YOUR knowledge when making this decision. It isn't about the money (unless it is SO tight that this post is moot, anyway), it's about what makes YOU happy.

Every arranger has strong points and weak points. No exceptions. Roland have weak points (go to Roland-arranger.com for MY opinions!), and Yamaha do too (just don't ask Ian ), but if you've played them both and Roland float your boat, then have at it..!

The online demos of the G70 really show how much guff is spouted at this keyboard. In the right hands, it can sound as good as any other TOTL arranger out there. Better, in a 'live' sense than most, only the guitars are a little weak in comparison to Yamaha, the drums blow just about anything else away, and the piano is without equal (IMO).

If you like to tweak your styles or SMFs, once again, the Roland is by FAR the easiest to do this. If you want, OTOH, to pull it out of the box and do little more than play the styles, Yamaha may be the better decision. I think Yamaha have the best 'instant gratification' factor, but Roland and Korg offer more in the way of customization. Yamaha also have a VERY 'polite', polished sound, whereas the Roland's and Korg's sound more 'live'. If you intend to play primarily as background music, Yamaha may be the best choice. If you want to be noticed, and have a more realistic 'live band' sound, go Roland.

Finally, one last word. The Yamaha's are GREAT OMB arrangers. But that's it... The G70 is a GREAT real live band keyboard, with a full 76 action (the best in the business), an awesome piano sound (ditto, IMO), the best Hammond sim in an arranger, and a killer OS for live use. If you intend to do MORE than just play OMB, perhaps actually play with real live people (I know, I know, the horror! ), then the Roland is by FAR the keyboard that will take you further.

The G70 will give you room to grow. The S900 is what it is... an arranger, pure and simple. Lousy keyboard action, no balls to keep up with a live band, everything optimized for the OMB...

What do you want to BE...? (not what are you NOW)...

S900 aint no slouch

If you are going to use the instrument in a home situation or as a solo, or One Man Band instrument, your best best is the PSR-S900...smooth and light keyboard action, excellent operating system, phenomenal third party support, awesome Super Articulated and Mega voices exclusive to Yamaha....AND an instrument that is light and easy to transport if you're doing any gigging.

PLUS...you get a warranty.

Ian

The G-70 was the best arranger keyboard I ever owned. As for a live band situation, it was no slouch either - actually, it was a dream. Given the opportunity, I would take back the G-70 in a blink.

I've owned the PSR 2000 and 3000. Both were great boards and had great features, but neither gave me the satisfaction factor the G-70 did. Just one man's opinion.

Cass...same here.....I loved the G70 but the Size & Weight was the deal breaker for me, A super busy schedule, with constant setup/breakdowns was a bit much for that kind of real estate...but I will tell you this...if Roland trims the size & lightens it up about 10 lbs...& keeps all the great features the G70 has.....they'll have my money for sure....I cant wait for their next TOTL "GX90" arranger or what ever it will be named.

Play On!!

I Played the G 70 styles on my tyros 2 until I became convinced I had to have one. The luck of the draw got me a Roland E 80 instead and I still have the Tyros 2. I go back and forth between them but the E 80 is getting more time for me as I keep playing them. I think I will prolly be selling the Tyros before too long and stay with the E 80.
Bebop

If given the choice today Yamaha or Roland G70. I'd have a tough time deciding as well. But I would keep the G70 knowing what I know now and having been thru both a Tyros 2 and a G70.

But only you can be the judge.

Buy what sounds best to you, and is best suited to your specific needs. Everyone has their own axe to grind on the forum, but I think the best judge of what you need is YOU!

BTW: I performed with a band a few weeks ago, a country band, one that really rocked the house. They loved what they heard from the PSR-3000 and asked when I could join them again. Not a prayer--and not enough money.

Good Luck on whatever keyboard you decide upon,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Thanks all. I know my ears should be the final arbiter. however. I enjoy reading especially the pluses and minuses of each Moniker.

I sold a triton. Proteus 2000 and a few other modules when I heard the s900. I write using generic sounds. I want a trumpet to sound like a trumpet. Guitars are very important to me as well as I don't play well enough to fill that gap.

I listened to the demos but as you all know the demos are all stops out. I would love to find a site to hear the sounds individually since no one in my general area has a g70. I did play a Fantom next to a Motif and actually liked the Motif better soundwise.

I play the Tyros and s900 everyday at work but there is a G70 refurb on Ebay for $2k I am looking at as well. It has been listed and recieved no bites. Its back up again.

We have a Roland RD700 so I know the piano sounds are plenty good and Roland is a quality company.

The intellegant break on the Yamaha is amazing. Even the fills know which beat ou are on. I wonder if the Roland is as "intellegant" or even more then the 900.

I played an old Kurtzweil that would actually change the style based on the SPECIFIC CHORD type. I am afraid I may get board with the 900 but there are plenty of styles out there to cover evry song.....

Decisions decisions.......

No, the G70 is not as fluid as the Yamaha in style change (lots of glitches). My Korg PA800 is very good and the Yamaha 900 is nearly perfect.

zuki

Well that would eliminate the Roland. When switching styles (with the fill) or selecting a break the 900 "knows" which beat you are on and seemlessly changes the arrangement/Drum fill to reflect that perfectly. That feature amazed me almost as much as the Kurzweil's ability to change the style arrangement dependent on the actual chord played.


The only "glitches" I have had in the Yamaha are those in which I was sloppy in switching chords.

IMHO, Yamaha does a lot of things better than ROland. The OS is very simple to navigate. But, as I said previously, I like the Roland styles better and the G70 jusst gives me that satisfaction factor that I never got from the 2k or 3k.

Gary ... Did you enjoy playing with them ? ... what about the inter-play between musicians ? ...
Every gig can't JUST be about the money ...

t.

Thats probably true from what Im reading. But I think one can get styles freom any Arranger and convert them. There are thousands of available styles out there for Yamaha already/ Just have to sift through them.

Tony,

We had a ball, and I've played with them in the past. However, at my age getting home at 3 in the morning, putting up with drunks, and $75 for 4 hours work just don't cut it. I'm now to the point where semi-retirement will probably take place next year. I'm also one of the few full-time musicians I know that has been faithfully putting money into their own retirement fund for the past 15 years. You can't go into semi-retirement if you do break even jobs. Yep, those jobs are lots of fun, but when you do this for a living you need to put something away for the future years.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Hi Kingfrog

If you go here
http://www.createsongstyles.com/index.php?option=com_musicbox&task=viewAuth&Itemid=55&id=13

You will be able to listen to a well seasoned Performer by the name of " Don Mason " ...You can hear real songs played on the G70,PSR2000,PSR9000,TYROS2,SD1 and the S900.

This might help you out

Ron

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createsongstyles.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by travlin'easy:
[B]Tony,

We had a ball, and I've played with them in the past. However, at my age getting home at 3 in the morning, putting up with drunks, and $75 for 4 hours work just don't cut it. I'm now to the point where semi-retirement will probably take place next year. I'm also one of the few full-time musicians I know that has been faithfully putting money into their own retirement fund for the past 15 years. You can't go into semi-retirement if you do break even jobs. Yep, those jobs are lots of fun, but when you do this for a living you need to put something away for the future years.

Gary, At age 76 I can say you speak words of wisdom.
John C.

Kingfrog, this post is from a player that had a G70 only for a few days, never liked it, and hasn't been able to stop panning it since. He never even updated it to the current OS, and somehow magically got glitches that NO-ONE ever heard before.

But you don't hear ANYONE else having his problems... So I would take that one with a grain of salt. I've never heard anything posted that demonstrated it... A lot of style 'glitches' come from poor timing on the input (your LH). Roland's are capable of changing chords on the 16th note, as far as I know, most others only recognize the 8th note. Perhaps this, and a combination of using the wrong chord recognition mode was the problem.

If you use the default 'Intelligent' (One Finger type) mode, you'll get glitches if you don't put ALL the notes down simultaneously, as for instance, the C gets you a Cmaj, then the Eb gets you Cmin, then the F gets you an F7, then the Bb gets you an F7sus. Which, if you were trying for an F7sus is a lot to glitch through.

But a simple choice of the right mode, Standard, or even better, the 'three notes before ANY chord is changed' Piano Style avoids most of this.

The thing you have to watch out for is that ALL the ROM styles' OTS settings change the arranger to this so-called 'Intelligent' mode (you can change them all later to your choice with some software we have at the Roland-arranger.com), so it might lead you to believe it does this ALL the time.

Which it does NOT...

Ron, thanks for mentioning me regarding the G70 songs. I liked it a lot. It is just a little too heavy for me. There were only a couple other things I didn't like, but a huge amount of thing I DID like.
DonM

i do not play a G70, but i do play the E60, which in many ways is pretty similar. the roland's styles are the most reliable, IMO, they cover alot of styles, and they do it good!
roland has it's share of bugs or shortcomings, but glitches in styles? i cound not find that one!
OTOH, korg still has some problems with the timing when pressing fillins. i know because i have tested it, including pa2x. and the biggest "guilt" for yamaha is the styles are over quantized, they sound too mechanic and not "live" like.
you really should find a G70 and play it. it is totally different from s900, build wise, weight, touch, everything. too bad s900's build quality is not as roland's!....

Thank you.Great help........Excepting I am now looking seriously at the Korg. Seems to be closer to the Yamaha in sound quality with the features I like of the Roland. I have listened to every Roland demo and then the Yamaha. My wife and I agreed some of the Roland sounds sounded like a keyboard playing non keyboard parts. We could not distinguish ANY of Yamaha's acoustic sounds from the real thing. The "polished and Mastered CD" quality of the mix is a plus for us as thats how we intend to use it. I have decided to go with the "Super boards" though. The Tyros 2 or the Korg PA800/Pa2x The PA800 is a short version of the PA2x. I can ge the PSR s900 for just over cost at around $1200 as well as the Tyros 2 which can be had used for less than cost unlike the s900.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 04-03-2008).]

As DNJ Donny always says, use YOUR ears. All of the keyboards mentioned here are top notch TOTL arrangers. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. Only YOU can make that final decision. At this point we are starting to get to the 'my board is better than yours' border, which we should not want to cross again. Good luck making your decision....


... just make sure it a #&*&%%$@ lol

Kingfrog, this post is from a player that had a G70 only for a few days, never liked it, and hasn't been able to stop panning it since. He never even updated it to the current OS, and somehow magically got glitches that NO-ONE ever heard before.

But you don't hear ANYONE else having his problems... So I would take that one with a grain of salt. I've never heard anything posted that demonstrated it... A lot of style 'glitches' come from poor timing on the input (your LH). Roland's are capable of changing chords on the 16th note, as far as I know, most others only recognize the 8th note. Perhaps this, and a combination of using the wrong chord recognition mode was the problem.

If you use the default 'Intelligent' (One Finger type) mode, you'll get glitches if you don't put ALL the notes down simultaneously, as for instance, the C gets you a Cmaj, then the Eb gets you Cmin, then the F gets you an F7, then the Bb gets you an F7sus. Which, if you were trying for an F7sus is a lot to glitch through.

But a simple choice of the right mode, Standard, or even better, the 'three notes before ANY chord is changed' Piano Style avoids most of this.

The thing you have to watch out for is that ALL the ROM styles' OTS settings change the arranger to this so-called 'Intelligent' mode (you can change them all later to your choice with some software we have at the Roland-arranger.com), so it might lead you to believe it does this ALL the time.

Which it does NOT...[/QUOTE]




I totaly agree with Diki's & Cass posts above.....I have never had a glitch problem with any Roland....& also this is why my point about all this Keyboard YAK YAK WITHOUT Posting Examples, Demos, Songs, to further explain what people are talking about.... leaves everyone up in the air with whats left ONLY YAK YAK YAK from who knows who....so taking it all with a faceless grain of salt is the only way. When I had my Pa800 I posted some demo examples but I guess I was a jerk for doing so & thinking it would help some people make decisions on a purchase.....unfortunately you hardly hear anyone reciprocating with demos ahhhhhh whats the use?.......Unless you can HEAR what someone claims I say.......

FORGET ALL ELSE .....USE YOUR OWN EARS!



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-03-2008).]

So much of what some people think are arranger faults turn out to be 'operator error', especially when they first get an arranger. Unfamiliarity, and sometimes an unwillingness to ask other, more experienced users whether the problems they are having are actual faults, or just something they are doing wrong.

Also, the unwillingness to post ANY audio examples is telling. If you are not confident enough to let others hear your playing (and the problem you describe), it begs the question 'maybe this IS operator error?'

Especially if no-one else reports the same problem...

The G70 is a decent arranger...I thought it sounded very nice and the styles worked fine for me.

It's weight is both it's best asset and biggest drawback...it's well made, but HEAVY.

Ian

go here if you want to hear my latest song recorded on the Roland E 80. http://roland-arranger.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=38&topic=731.0
Bebop

I agree, it is difficult to get glitches while playing c, g, or f chords, but not the same when playing complex chords. Try the G70 and you'll find it is no way near the Yamaha in fluidity.

Certainly, I can't be the only one experiencing this? Or maybe I'm the only with guts....

State the chords you want, in the style you want, and I'll play them and record it for you, Zuki...

But first, a question... did you know that if you used an OTS button, the Roland automatically moved the chord recognition type to One Finger Chord (Intelligent Mode)?

And that EVERY factory UPG is set to One Finger Chord by default? So, if you changed it to Standard, or Pianostyle (the best one for minimizing chord input error - see my description above for what might be the problem), and then hit an OTS button, it changes it back without telling you!

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 04-03-2008).]

Now, if that doesn't smack of "home keyboard" nothing does.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-04-2008).]

I thought you knew, Ian... ALL arrangers are 'home' keyboards.

As I've said many times, this is a topsy turvy world.

Roland make very 'pro' arrangers (if you just compare build quality to equivalent WS's), with very 'live' sounding samples, especially the drums. But they put a VERY 'home' OS in it.

Yamaha, OTOH, build arrangers that are DEFINITELY built to 'home' standards (no-one even MAKES a WS with such flimsy construction!) and have a 'home' orientation to the sound, nice and CD-like, but the put what is possibly the MOST 'pro' OS out there in them! Samplers, synchronized SMF and style playback (how many 'home' users use that?!), very advanced chord recognition systems, and a host of other things few but really advanced players and pros would ever use...

Topsy turvy...!

Of course I knew, Diki...but there are a few skeptics on the forum.

Just reiterating a known fact.

Thanks for noticing.

Ian

BTW, all of this default behavior CAN be changed... It's just it comes this way OOTB.

I guess just in case someone from a Yamaha decides to try one (you know how those 'home' players LOVE their One Finger Chords!)...

1 finger chords is a feature that should be eliminated vs great features like the chord Seq etc, etc, ....1 finger is a terrible crutch that has ruined the education of playing KB music correctly.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-04-2008).]

Let's hope the next G-series is less beginner orientated.

Ian

Nothing wrong with 1 finger chords to get you started, the problem occurs when you never get out of 1 finger mode and so miss out on all the enjoyment. (Fortunately very few stick with 1 finger chords)
Remember there are stacks of users playing keyboards now, (With full chords) which wouldn’t be if they thought that keyboards were difficult to get a tune out of in the first place.

Bill

I use one finger ( at a time) when I play bass !

Yamaha offers "multi-fingered" chord as default...it allows single finger chords AND fingered chords....a very cool feature.

Ian

So does Roland Ian... (but you knew that, didn't you?).

But it has one serious flaw. As outlined above, if you don't get ALL those multi-finger notes down simultaneously, as the engine sees the first NOTE, it immediately jumps to that One Finger chord, then as you add more, it will glitch. You get a MUCH cleaner recognition if you use the three note system (it won't do anything until it sees the third note, so fewer changes of chords and glitches).



So Yamaha can have the market ALL to themselves?!

They nearly do now, Diki.

Obviously they know the market very well.

Ian

I sometimes use 'one finger' while reading these threads..

Don't tell Michel Voncken that.

Best,
Mike

Would that they did, Ian... Then Roland could concentrate on making 'pro' features again, like Chord Sequencers...