Okay, March 2007 was the first time that Audya was revealed to the public at the Musikmesse International Trade Fair in Frankfurt, Germany. A year later it was revealed again at Musikmesse 2008 (a few days ago) and people have gotten a better glimpse and a better understanding of what the Audya is and what it can do. But I don't think I've ever known a new product that has been showcased at two different Musikmesse Trade Shows, a year apart from each other, and the company still does not have that product on store shelves within that span of time. Do we have to wait for Musikmesse 2009 before we can actually get our hands on them in stores or will it perhaps be not until Musikmesse 2010??

All jesting aside, what is it presently that is holding up the production and/or release of the Audya to stores? AJ mentioned they were thinking about going with the P4 instead of the Pentium 3. To do that they would have to use a different motherboard but I don't see the difficulty in switching motherboards. You discard the old one and put in the new one... done! Okay, yes I realize the dimension of the new Main board will have to be scaled (customized) to fit inside the Audya but Ketron should have no problem accomplishing that task. So is there some 'other' hardware issues that still plague the Audya or does Ketron simply enjoy going to Frankfurt each year for the brautwurst and beer and the Audya is just one of the means to get there? In other words, what's the hold up fellas????

I appreciate Ketron's attention to detail regarding the Audya and going with a P4 CPU would be better than a P3 of course but even better would be a Core 2 Duo processor. Since the Audya has already been built around the Intel Pentium 3 architecture perhaps there would have to be too much "retooling" on the Audya to go with the even more advanced Core 2 Duo CPU/Motherboard architecture. I would settle for a P4 over a P3 any day of the week though of course.

So I guess the real pressing concern I have is - what will it take to get the Audya out the door and on its way to retail establishments? A better question still is when can we expect that to happen?? Or should we simply stop expecting it to be released at all and simply wait until Musikmesse 2009 before we get to see additional videos and sounds of the Audya when Ketron shows up at Frankfurt to demo it yet again? I know I am being facetious but I think you get the point right AJ?

The reason I am asking these questions is because there is a good chance I will get an Audya once it is released. If I haven't already kicked the bucket by then that is.

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 03-21-2008).]

Don't be shy AJ. We're all family here and we could sure use any "new" info you can give us about your new flagship Audya.
Especially pertaining to the part about "when do you guys expect it to ship to market"? In other words, a more definitive time frame such as June of 08' or Fall of 08', etc. Thanks.

Best,
Mike

Hi.

At the very same source as I found the Tyros 3 info,(a Norwegian Musicshop website),
it say fabric ship will be late summer, and hopefully ready for sale here in Oct. 2008.
Regarding price, no info so far.

Happy Playing and Happy Easter
GJ

Btw,
thats about the same time as Tyros 3 are expected to be ready for sale as well....



[This message has been edited by Gunnar Jonny (edited 03-21-2008).]

I think Ketron are starting to realize the difference between a good idea, and a good product. Not to mention the huge task of providing enough audio loops for the product to be competitive around the world (with its' vastly different musical tastes).

Let's face it, as I've said before... If these loop based styles are THAT good (and they had better be, at that price point and complexity), you are going to want ALL your styles to match. You are NOT going to want to sound brilliant on one tune, and lackluster on the next. Content, content, content... That is the FIRST and foremost priority of an arranger. We don't need technical innovation at the cost of poor content (thank you, Domenik!), we need first class CONTENT before any other consideration.

What is the point of any advanced feature, if it doesn't equate to a vast source of inspiring styles to use with it? The fact is, VERY few people even make their own MIDI based styles, yet alone have the skill to record a loop library, slice a loop library, and match it's feel perfectly to every other loop library they use. ESPECIALLY us old codgers that are the primary market for these things...

As some of the 'open' and semi-'open' flag wavers are starting to realize, an inferior technology with a superior style selection will win the race every single time... The main thing any one of us expects from an arranger when we first purchase it is - does it have a large enough selection of the styles that WE use personally to be musically satisfying OOTB? EVERY other question is secondary.

This implies a HUGE variety of styles (that ALL must be inspiring) to cover all the bases that the keyboard is likely to be sold in. Country to klezmer, rock to raga, bossa to the Bristol sound. NOT loop features that will be prohibitively expensive and time consuming to implement by the user, because the manufacturer did not have the resources to make themselves to their own ROM standards.

The LAST thing any one of us wants to have to think when someone comes up and requests an obscure style is 'Oh no! Now I've got to use a MIDI style that sounds like dog-doo compared to the rest of my loop styles!' But without CONTENT, what choice will we have?

Until technology advances WAY past where we are now, to the point of completely user-transparent loop slicing, 'feel' matching, and the new Melodyne technique of re-harmonizing live loops, these things are going to have to rely on factory and third party styles to become flexible enough to compete with a 'closed', MIDI based arranger. And I don't see either one of these having the resources to provide enough of these at a price that we are going to be willing to pay.

I ask again the question (that no-one has answered yet )... How many NEW 'live loop' drum styles did Ketron release AFTER the SD-1 was launched? And how much were they? Everyone says they sound great... and this is only the drum part using loops. So, if few have been produced, imagine how FEWER will be made when MUCH, much more work has to be done to get guitar chords, bass-lines, everything else loop based into a new style...

Content, content, content... Without it, and continued support for MORE content in the future (Roland just gave away 20 new styles for their arrangers - how many have/will Ketron?), it doesn't matter one jot what technology is inside the case. It matters how many, and how good are the STYLES inside the arranger....

How is the support if anything goes wrong with the Audya & needs to be sent for service? Are there many warranty repair centers that can make a fast turnaround for a gigging musician besides AJ or?

Both of you have good arguments. What I heard on the Live Demo was very good but realistically if only a handful of these real audio constructed styles pass muster and there are a total of e.g. 400 styles onboard, it won't be very comforting to know roughly 350 of them are medicore at best compared to the 50 or so excellent ones.

Now from what I've heard so far of the individual instrument sounds on the Audya most of the ones I've heard have been very good to excellent sounding. Of course Ketron is trying to put their best foot forward with the audio demos and also the same with the video demos on their web site and with a total of maybe 50 different solo instruments we've heard so far over the span of a year now i.e. Musikmesse 2007 to Musikmesse 2008 it speaks nothing of the more than 1,000 or so we haven't heard yet and most likely won't until the person can actually play it firsthand. And to be able to do so before you've actually first purchased the Audya may be a miracle in itself. I know Guitar Center doesn't stock Ketron products. With them it is strictly a special order item only. I think those in the U.K and Europe as a whole will have a significantly better opportunity to demo the Audya firsthand without having to buy it sight unseen first because the Audya is made in Europe and the distribution over there is a lot more connected and cohesive i.e. 'tightly knit' within the European countries. I will usually never buy something I can't try out beforehand first to see if it suits my needs. So for me to play an Audya I would have to drive to either L.A. i.e. George Kaye's shop (which wouldn't be too bad i.e. 100 miles or so) or out to Arizona where AJ works i.e. 400 miles or so. It shouldn't have to be that difficult and/or time consuming to go play a $4,500 dollar keyboard especially with gasoline prices sky high and then on top of that to find it doesn't suit your liking.

And as Donny said, how about service centers for the Audya? Will I have to ship it a 1,000 miles to have it worked on? Will they have to keep it several weeks or months before I get it back? If a person gigs, what do we use in the meantime for our gigs? I realize most musicians have back-up gear but the main axe is the one you're counting on and it's getting worked on a 1,000 miles etc., from where you reside, and may be tied up for several weeks to over a month getting fixed?!?!?! So Donny's point is well taken also.

And nothing in reply from Ketron so far?

It just goes further to show people that the support is just not there, either verbally and/or quite possibly contractually with Ketron products. Maybe AJ has orders from central headquarters i.e. Ancona, Italy to say as little as possible, with Ketron not wanting to stir up any pressing debates or controversy regarding the Audya, so if he has to remain quiet he may be only following orders and you have to respect him for that because he is simply being a 'good' employee. We don't want him getting in any trouble either.

Again, all good points and all points well taken guys. I'm still debating whether I should risk getting an Audya sight unseen. Maybe by Musikmesse 2009 when they demo it again I will be more open to it though. Just kidding AJ and Ketron! lol.. I hope you can take a joke!

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 03-21-2008).]

Mike by that time you'll have a harder choice with the new Yamaha & new Roland arrangers on their way! Or just stay with what you have already....thats not a bad thing.

Hi Diki,
The Live Drums are actually Rom based, as for User drum audio loops, as far as I'm aware, it's a case of do them yourself, unless I just couldn't find them.
I bought a Drums on Demand CDRom to try & create some (which I did).
The SD1+ for me, lacked some styles, naively I thought I'd get around the problem by converting, but I found trying to convert & then edit styles too big a hassle because of lack of note editing functions, in the end I gave up. Maybe I'm just too picky to leave incorrectly converted notes in my styles.

Hopefully they've added some additional editing functions in the Audya, namely some type of note event list editing for styles. I'd definately take a look if they have.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B]

I ask again the question (that no-one has answered yet )... How many NEW 'live loop' drum styles did Ketron release AFTER the SD-1 was launched?

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 03-22-2008).]

Thanks, Rikki....

So - there you have it. NONE. Not one more 'live loop' style from Ketron since the day they released the SD-1, and the acknowledgment that making your own loop slices, for something even as trivial as the drum loop (it is by FAR the easiest to slice well, with well defined transients and little sustaining sounds) is quite difficult. And how long has the SD-1 been out now, four years or more?

Now imagine how many FEWER there will be when the task of slicing and matching the loops includes all those necessary for guitar parts, etc.. (well, actually, it couldn't POSSIBLY be any fewer!)....

You are beginning to see the results of technology without content...

One final warning... OK, you say to yourself, I'll make them myself, no matter HOW hard it is. You buy a decent loop library, or two (or three!), laboriously slice them to hell and back, painstakingly crafting a few good styles. Can you share them with your friends, can you sell them to other Audya users...?

NO! Professionally recorded loop libraries have stringent copyright restrictions. On the whole, you are NOT allowed to re-sell them, you are NOT allowed to use them to make another commercial loop product, you are NOT allowed to share them, and you cannot use them in a commercial recording without owning the original loop rights...

These laws are FAR more stringently enforced than MIDI copying, due to the prohibitive cost of making them in the first place, and audio, under the law, gets far better copyright protection and enforcement than MIDI products (whether this is fair is a topic for a different debate)...

So the degree of new USER styles, compared to Yamaha, Roland and Korg (who don't have to wrestle with these issues) will also be minimal. At least, for 'live loop' styles.

Look, I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but issues like this often get lost in the glow of hype about new technologies. Sure, the technology is amazing. But it's implementation is often FAR short of our expectations. One door opens, but two more shut.

Demonstrably, those that tout the highest technical achievements are those with noticeably poorer styles, and style selection (and user style creation). For all their 'closed'-mindedness, the big three at least understand that content brings us back for more. NOT the promise of advanced technology, but you are on your own when it comes to the content.

Arranger users are a very small fraction of the entire keyboard market. Professional arranger players are a very small fraction of THAT fraction. And 'pro' arranger players (or talented amateurs) that create their own styles are a tiny fraction of THAT fraction. And the fraction of that fraction that has any ability slicing and matching loop libraries is microscopic.

And yet, these appear to be the target consumer for products like the MS and Audya... Best of luck, mates!

While technological improvements are good, in all fairness, if my G70 improves NO further, but I keep getting a reasonable supply of inspiring new styles for it, I could happily take it to the grave. Each new style is like getting a new arranger. Sure, there's a couple of niggly little OS things I would LOVE improved, but if they DON'T, and I still keep getting new Roland and third party (and user!) styles for it, I will be content.

But if it were up to me SOLELY to make new content, I would be changing arrangers as often as Donny or Zuki

Domenik, AJ..... Food for thought.

Hi Diki,
sorry, I may have mislead .
The Ketron, User drum loops aren't actually sliced. They just get loaded in processed & played back as is.

The "Live Drums" which are apparently rom based drum loops, are fairly adequate. They're not really used on their own. Normally it's a combination of a midi drum track & a Live Drum track.
The Live drum track can be used throughout most of the style, but it's the midi drums that add the variety & the build up thru the variations.

I can see where you're coming from as far as trying to do one's own instrumental loops (if that is an option on the Audya) idea sounds great, but I'm having enough problems putting together enough generic drum loops for my PA800. I've got access to 100's of them, but I can't afford to have drum loops in my PA that may only be suitable for the one style. Could get too messy loading & unloading everytime I want to change styles. 64 mb ram doesn't go far when a 1 bar drum loop equals 1 mb.

Ketron must be doing user loops differently?? Hopefully they've got a good broad base of rom loops. Don't know how many of us ever tried creating drum loops for the sd's.

Diki, maybe we're just too fixated on doing our own thing.
A lot of the dedicated Ketron owners seem more than happy with what they've got.
They must be reasonably happy with the onboard styles.
With some of the Yammie groups I've belonged to, the fixation seems to be with styles ( I'm definately one of those haahaa) whereas Ketron owners ( only an observation from one of the groups I belonged to) appear more than happy playing older models, & they don't appear to be fixated on styles.

Maybe different brands suit different temperments. haahaa ( only kidding)

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B]Thanks, Rikki....

The thing is, Rikki... Once the entire arranger is based about these loops, to a FAR greater extent than the SD-1 is, you are going to need more and more of them. Otherwise, you are stuck with what it comes with AND NO MORE. When a live loop guitar part sounds that good (and the demos bear this out), are you going to be happy with the remainder of your styles sounding inferior?

And at the price these come at, I see few changing to each new model, just to get a few more styles. But you are starting to realize what a PITA it is to create new content at the ROM standards. So the Audya better come chock a block with incredible styles, because it certainly doesn't look like Ketron are going to be adding much themselves, at least from prior experience.

They have already said the loops are going to come in from a HD, so the old ROM limitations don't apply, but ROM or HD, it won't matter a bit if what you get on purchase day is what you'll have on selling day...

Diki,
you have made some interesting and thoughtful remarks, but I really can't see your point, can't see where the problem is, or where the problem will be.

you like the possibility of those good sounding guitars?
you don't?
you like them and fear that they will be too few?
you don't like the thought that there might not be an easy way for you to add more?

I mean what is the problem if Audya has some 350 TOTL styles and additionally offers 50 even more TOTL sounding styles? Wouldn't it be better than having 400 TOTLS styles only?

At a guess I would say Ketron don't have an unlimited R+D budget, so unless there are some serious issues with the finished product, or possibly even the fact they cannot GET a finished product with reliable operation to owners, then this model (based on average financial considerations) should have hit the shelves already.
After all it didn't bother them too much to release the SD1 with all its bugs and then fix them in due course with OS updates (this is from some Ketron people I have spoken to).
So this leads me to think they cannot get a reliable product to market, either because of technology or because they went in with the wrong amount of processing power and technology in the first place.

Trident... I thought I had explained it adequately here and on the other Audya thread...

OF COURSE I like the demos of the styles. Who wouldn't?

Here's the problem. Firstly, just exactly how many different chord types and extensions will the Audya be able to do with the guitar loops? I don't want to hear a straight major when I ask for a maj9. I don't want to hear a 7th, when I play a 7#9. I've heard NO answer yet from Ketron about this.

Secondly, what percentage of the styles are going to have the live loop guitars (and other sounds)? If they sound THAT spectacular (which they appear to), I am NOT going to want some of my tunes to sound great, and some not so great.

And finally, what commitment is Ketron going to make to continue to produce these live loop styles once the machine is released..? Prior experience says NONE. Which won't matter a bit if your ENTIRE style needs are taken care of at the initial launch. Sadly, few arrangers ever do, and even if the initial offering is adequate, we will always hunger for diversity and choice, even on styles that ARE represented.

Third party and additional factory styles (and user styles) is what keeps our interest up in an arranger once the first bloom has worn off. Which, from experience (I work a LOT with loops in the studio) will be few and far between, if at all, from prior experience.

So, technically, and sonically, it's a breakthrough. But practically may be another thing altogether. Time will tell. I'm not counting it out prematurely, but I'm not willing to go along with the hysteria about the hype and demos. There are legitimate questions that have not been answered yet, and I await those answers as much as anyone else...

Audya to Showcase at the Pakefield Keyboard Festival in April, see uploaded program for details. (Separate Post)

Bill

http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/017256.html

[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 03-23-2008).]

Ok, Diki, I get it now.
You are NOT dissatisfied yet, (how could you be since you haven't seen it) but you actually shout first, in hopes that you will be heard, and you won't be dissatisfied later. It is like cry wolf, except you have already seen wolves in the past.

It is like seeing someone in your front lawn in the middle of the night, trying to get in your house. Could be Apostle Paul, but most probably is a crackhead. From your reaction, you already have him on the sights of a loaded shotgun. Or he is already bleeding. Can't blame you.

The way I see things (I agree with you in principle, but try to show you iMHO you are a little premature) is not that you would have 50 spectacular styles and 200 not so great. It is that you will have 50 spectacular and 200 GREAT.

Time will tell.

...double post

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 03-23-2008).]

Wow Trident that was very succinct but very clear. Thanks for helping me see things differently. In your eyes the glass is half full and not half empty !! Of course you are right. Right now i have some styles on my PA1X that are great and some that are incredible and a few that are not to my taste but i just use the ones i like period. Thats going to be exactly the same principle i would use if i owned the Audya.

That's a little off the mark, Spalding, IMO.

On your Korg, BOTH the great and the not so great styles use the same sounds. The only difference is the programming. Or if a style uses less than the perfect sound, it is a simple matter to change it (or even some of the notes inside the style).

But the live loops won't allow this.

And, like I said, if they are THAT much better (and this product is taking a LONG time to get to market, so one imagines that most of the delay comes from trying to incorporate this new feature) then yes, the comparison will in all likelihood be FAR greater than you would like it to be. Basically, as much as the difference between what you have now, and a recording of a REAL band. And from what I've heard of all the major arrangers, there isn't ONE (including my G70!) that remotely convinces me I'm hearing the real thing.

These 'Live Loop' styles WILL.

So the difference WILL be that great. If not, it won't be the breakthrough that everyone is abuzz with...

Look, it sounds like some of you didn't bring an umbrella to the parade, and I'm sorry for raining on it, but I honestly think that you can be cautious and practical now, or disappointed later, when it DOES come out. Most of my talking points are based in fact, and experience from dealing with loop production in the studio. It is not always a bed of roses. There are limitations to the technology that some of you may be unaware of (or just want to pretend don't exist).

There are some points I haven't even brought up yet... Like, how do the loops deal with fractionally 'late' chord entry..? All of our MIDI based arrangers instantaneously jump the 'wrong' notes (from the previous chord) to the correct ones without retriggering or missing notes. You won't be able to do THAT with audio...

Don't get me wrong... I am as curious as anyone else about the Audya. It's just that, with a technology so new as this one (this is the first commercial product to do this to any degree), I am curious to find out how they deal with some of these problems, and also curious how we will react to some of the limitations inherent in it. Unfortunately, it seems that some of us don't want to hear about ANY limitations while we bask in the glow of the advertising hype. I, OTOH, prefer to think about possible roadblocks BEFORE I rush out and buy something. Not exactly the prevailing attitude at SZ, but one that has kept me from bouncing from one arranger to the next constantly.

But, time will tell (Messe '09?!). You want me to shut up and just go along with the hype? OK... This thing is AMAZING! It's the answer to all our prayers! It will turn me into a superstar overnight! Everything I play will sound better on the Audya! Men will envy me, supermodels will date me..!

Better...?

Public showings are in a few weeks, so it wont be long after before its available to buy, and you will probably be able to pre-order at the show.

Bill

No Diki . I am grateful that you are flagging up these potential issues and i have no problem with a wait and see policy. I am in no rush to buy another keyboard. I dont chase technology. When i have become a better musician and have mastered the keyboard i have right now , i might entertain buying another keyboard. If i were to buy this instrument or any keyboard I wont buy the instrument unless i can demo it just like any other keyboard i have ever purchase. But from the demos online, there doesnt seem to be any problem with how the chord recognition works so far , there doesnt seem to be a problem with the lateness of the chord being played in real time. The demos have been quite limited at the moment so i cant sing the instruments praises or critiscise the instrument to death . Like i said i will wait and see.

No Diki . I am grateful that you are flagging up these potential issues and i have no problem with a wait and see policy. I am in no rush to buy another keyboard. I dont chase technology. When i have become a better musician and have mastered the keyboard i have right now , i might entertain buying another keyboard. If i were to buy this instrument or any keyboard I wont buy the instrument unless i can demo it just like any other keyboard i have ever purchase. But from the demos online, there doesnt seem to be any problem with how the chord recognition works so far , there doesnt seem to be a problem with the lateness of the chord being played in real time. The demos have been quite limited at the moment so i cant sing the instruments praises or critiscise the instrument to death . Like i said i will wait and see.

Hi all,
This has not to do with this discussion really. But maybe someone of you can tell me how much do you actually see of the Audya in the video demos?
I am visually impaired and have only listened to the demos. From what I understand it features sliders and physical buttons, not a touch screen wich is a big problem for us. Does it look professional?
The demos sounds very good, but I would like to hear some more styles and if it actually sounds that good. Many thanks for any info!
Christian

Diki,
I agree with Spalding and with you, in that you carefully express your educated (and thus, inquiring) opinion, and care about what will happen. And of course you are not raining in anyone's parade. Educated opinions and inquiring minds like yours is the reason I log on the SZ.

If the new super styles on the Audya are very heavily reliant on the new looped guitar parts, they will (as you predict) be a disaster. Like having a band with some mediocre musicians and a guitar wizard that attracts the crowds. Once he leaves the band, they rest will roll into oblivion.

On the other hand, if Ketron programs their styles thoughtfully, and restrain themselves from showing off, the super-duper guitar part will not outshine the rest of the instruments, and the result will be more balanced and player friendly than the one you envision (a few super styles and a lot more "normal sounding").

We are all waiting... for the Audya.

PS, no matter what, I am NOT going to get an Audya anyway. My use of an arranger at home does not justify anything over S900, and even that is maybe too expensive.