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#229443 - 03/20/08 06:56 PM Re: News about the coming Tyros 3
Jerry T Offline
Member

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 950
Loc: Phila. 'burbs, Pa. USA
I'm with Rikki! With a module, I can use 76 keys, 49 keys, midi accordion strap-on keytar etc.
Ciao,
Jerry

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#229444 - 03/20/08 07:07 PM Re: News about the coming Tyros 3
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
I find just a bit of irony that a post about a model that is months away from even existing gets this much debate and arguments.. while "how to" threads and "music posts" usually seem to spark pretty much little to no interest.

Nothing much ever really changes here I guess, but I suppose it's because my expectations of it were probably wrong in the first place, and maybe it's the way it's supposed to be. SZ always was what it was and still is what it is.. and what it isn't and has never been is a place for songwriters to discuss techniques, share music or relevant files, or a place to discuss actually getting "under the hood" and get inside of what's here and in already our hands in the present.

I occasionally still look in, but pretty much stay away from here these days not so much because of the arguing.. really I couldn't care less.. but instead because of ( with the exception of a few of course ) the general lack of response to posts that actually contain useful, relevant, and interesting substance... My perception of course, but I'd rather spend my free time playing, creating and learning about something I can actually use with what I have in my hands now. Special thanks though to Rikki, Jorgen, Micheal Bedesem and FLR, ( I'm sure I missed a few more )from whom I gathered so much useful info along with some excellent discussion.

AJ
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AJ

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#229445 - 03/20/08 07:26 PM Re: News about the coming Tyros 3
keybplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2416
Loc: CA
edited by keybplayer.

You're right Bluezplayer. I was going to post in response to spalding but I realize that it won't solve anything or help the situation. If Yamaha chooses not to make a high end 76 arranger that is their choosing. There is no need to discuss why they should anymore. They've heard it all before anyway.

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 03-20-2008).]
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.

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#229446 - 03/20/08 08:25 PM Re: News about the coming Tyros 3
keybplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2416
Loc: CA
I do think the anger on the Zone over the last several weeks has subsided to a large degree and that is a good thing of course. Objective opinions are always welcome in my book but we have to remind ourselves to do it in a respectful manner. I have to catch myself once in a while to not get so riled up when some of the topics start to flair up. A lot of them I won't reply to but even the ones I do I have to try and be careful not to be inflammatory or step on any toes. I don't always succeed and it might have something to do with the German blood in me I don't know. On the other hand it might be the Scottish blood in me as well.

I myself like to talk about up and coming products, especially the high-end arranger kind. I think the buzz surrounding a new product coming to market is one of the things manufacturers rely on to generate excitement in the product(s) and with the excitement comes the possibility of more sales and consequently will have a better chance to turn a substantial profit for them. Of course it will only do so if the hype turns into reality but the buzz is what starts things in motion regardless of the products eventual outcome.

Best,
Mike
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.

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#229447 - 03/20/08 09:38 PM Re: News about the coming Tyros 3
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 39964
Loc: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by kbrkr:
Donny, where do you get that assumption??? I am defending the fact that more people want 76 keys than 61 and Yamaha's refusal to create a 76 key arranger is irrational.

I'm loving my 76 key Pa2xpro




ok just checking...

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#229448 - 03/20/08 11:41 PM Re: News about the coming Tyros 3
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Quote:
Originally posted by spalding:
Of course Yamaha listens to their customers. thats exactly why they are market leaders in this product class. They dont make 76 Keyboard size arrangers because it is a niche market and one they dont want to play in. If they could make the profits from this market that they could in the 61 key market they would produce 76 key arrangers .

They are not stupid or stubborn. They are customer focused. They know who their core customers are . You may not be their core customer customer . Yamaha knows that there are some potential customers that they will lose because they dont offer a 76 key version of the tyros but thats a calulated loss. They are focused on the core purchasers that are fine with 61 keys and who are likely to switch brands if the board is made any bigger. There is no point in offering all sizes to everyone because there has to be big enough profit margins from each of the markets . Clearly there is not enough in it for Yamaha or they would most certainly make them.


Very well written post. On the surface it sounds reasonable and logical. But if you really examine the arguments in-depth, again you see the major fallacy in that it is not supported by any manufacturer real or official or actual proof to support the claim.

Yamaha can not say a TOTL 76 key arranger will hurt their sales. That is because they have not made a real good working and reasonable sized and weighted one.


If the argument is that: what we had before was good then we would not do any thing to improve from the last one, and we would not try to expand our market, then Yamaha is in bad shape and we should not expect any real advancement in Yamaha arrangers.


If you are in business and not trying to expand your market I really wonder about that business strategy.
But then you here the cry “arrangers are a small market and they don’t have that high sale volume”. Of course that would be the case because you are not making the arranger to where more people would buy it and you are not trying to expand your market.

I still have not received an answer to this question. If Yamaha made the next Tyros with 76 keys, with it being 4 inches than the T2 2 LBS than the T2 and the most $100 than the T2, would the persons who would buy a 61 key Tyros say they would not buy that new Tyros for the only reason that it has 76 keys and they hate 76 keys?
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TTG

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#229449 - 03/21/08 01:06 AM Re: News about the coming Tyros 3
Gunnar Jonny Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 3902
Loc: Norway
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
..... If Yamaha made the next Tyros with 76 keys, with it being 4 inches than the T2 2 LBS than the T2 and the most $100 than the T2, would the persons who would buy a 61 key Tyros say they would not buy that new Tyros for the only reason that it has 76 keys and they hate 76 keys?


Nah, they would not.
They who don't buy, are probably happy with the keyboard already
bought and are very pleased with 61 keys.
Then we have the customers who don't buy Yamaha anyway......

Myself I will stay away as long as it sounds like you're playing
a studiomixed CD on the stereo as soon as you hit a chord.

Ketron and Korg sure make thigs sound great, Roland are close, so
if Yamaha manage to get it sound more "live" and not as cold as
now, I'll certainly take a closer look at it.

Happy Playing
GJ
_________________________
Cheers & Happy Playing. smile
GJ
_______________________________________________
"Success is not counted by how high you have climbed
but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)

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#229450 - 03/21/08 01:48 AM Re: News about the coming Tyros 3
spalding Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 582
Loc: Birmingham
We are not argueing we are debating and thats fine by me. no anger on my part in any of my posts :-)

First of all Yamaha the corporation has several divisions for keyboards. They have the digital piano line, arranger/homekeyboards line , the pro workstation lines etc

Each product has to make a targeted profit from its sales. But overall yamaha need to increase their total profits accumulated through their combined sales. There is a fine balance between maximising the sales from one division without cannabalising sales from another division. It would make no sense for T2 sales to increase at the expense of Motif sales for example.

In fact thats the basis for a good illustration :-)

A yamaha motif ES keyboard owner wants upgrade his instrument. He needs a workstation. He would initially like a 76 key keyboard and is drawn to the top of the range motif XS retailing in th UK for approx £1400 however he is blown away by the SA sounds in the T2 61 key arranger keyboard which costs £2100. He cant afford to buy both so he buys the T2 with 61 keys . The Home keyboard/arranger line profits but at the expense of its motif XS range. The production/marketing costs for the T2 and the Motif are not the same because of tyhe differnt volumes produced and the niche market of home/arranger keyboards.

Go to the motifator website and you will see that this was not a dreamed up example. There have been about a dozen posts on that site since the T2 came out and countless debates about the frustration existing yamaha product owners have concerning their next yamaha purchase relating to either switching to the T2 or upgrading from the motif classic or ES to the T2 in preference of the XS

Yes the T2 costs more so yamaha should stil be making a profit on the difference between the the price of the XS and the T2 right ? Wrong !!! The production costs are very different because of the differnce in volume and scale. the costs of developing/producing variation on the same product i.e XS 6,7 and 8 are a lot less than the cost of producing just the T2 because the costs of the XS6,7 and 8 are shared. but if the T2 is purchase over the XS then the XS line loses that contribution to their fixed costs in producing the motif XS 76 keyboard.

No company can survive if it is not genuinely increaseing its market share against its competitors . Keyboard owners tend to be quite loyal to their brand. Learning a new operation system for example would put me off changing brand. We have already seen on this site people who have purchased an instrument away from their usual brand who have struggled to keep it simply because they were not familiar with the OS of the new brand, and so there is a genuine risk that instead of winning more customers away from Korg,Ketron,Roland yamaha would lose some of its customers from its other products.

If if Yamaha produced a 76 key arranger it most certainly would cannabalise its own pro market keyboard sales . Similarly if they put true T2 sounds on the motif XS it would canabalise its arranger keyboard sales.(some of you guys on here have stated that you would try the motif XS ) Yamaha the Corporation are already sticking their necks out by putting arranger type functions on their pro workstation keyboards. There is a reason why Yamaha keep some of the functions from their workstations from their arranger products and vice versa and it is not because thats what the buying public want. It is to maximise sales from the different product ranges.

So in a very long winded way (my apologies for the long post) there would have to be a genuine busines advantage to yamaha producing a 76 key arranger keyboard and from what i understand (no matter how many times we the minority stamp our feet in frustration) there jut isnt sufficient overal benefit to Yamaha the corporation in doing this otherwise i can assure you, just like any other profit focused company, they would.


[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 03-21-2008).]

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 03-21-2008).]

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#229451 - 03/21/08 05:16 AM Re: News about the coming Tyros 3
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Yes I am also debating! I hope my post did not come across as arguing.

I for the most part agree with every thing you said. Especially the part where you discussed that Yamaha has different keyboard divisions. That only goes to underscore my point that it is not the fact that a 76 key Yamaha TOTL arranger would not sell but it would do so at the expense of some of Yamaha’s other interest. Naturally, Yamaha is going to look for their best interest first.

However, I do not see if Yamaha made the T3 with 76 keys; no 61 or 88, that they would loose in the arranger sales of any of their other divisions.

Does any one really believe that if the T3 were to be 76 keys, has the wonderful sounds and styles, the same OS, light-weight, around the same size and price of the T2 that persons would not get it for the only reason that it has 76 keys and not 61? Would it be that damaging to the xs sales for the only reason that it is 76 keys and not 61?
The same analysis goes for Korg and Roland.


That is why I believe that Ketron and Lionstrack are in the best position to really take the arranger market to a different level because they have no competing interest with in their company.
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TTG

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#229452 - 03/21/08 01:11 PM Re: News about the coming Tyros 3
DanO1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 3602
Loc: Maryland
Have you noticed that Yamaha employee's do not participate in this forum any longer ?

When the T2 came out, they were here...now ?
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