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#227358 - 02/19/08 01:10 PM Re: Proud owner of a new Pa2xpro
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Dreamer,
well said.

Actually still haven't gotten round to loading the Real Drums, but after what you just mentioned, I'll have to give them a try.

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dreamer:
[B]
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#227359 - 02/19/08 03:52 PM Re: Proud owner of a new Pa2xpro
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14245
Loc: NW Florida
OK, my bad about Guitar Mode for PA1X. I thought I read somewhere they had updated the OS (or maybe they just announced they were GOING to...).

From what I gather, I was under the impression that Guitar Mode in Style Mode play was possible on the PA800/2X... The main difference from a style that was MADE using Guitar Mode is that, if you use Guitar Mode and Style Mode (at the same time), the Guitar Mode automatically maps your chords to authentic guitar voicings, whereas once it becomes a regular Style track, the regular rules for chord remapping and transposition apply, leading to a loss of the correct fingering and inversion...

Can someone confirm or correct me? I have been giving Roland a hard time for not integrating the two the way I THOUGHT Korg has done... Please don't tell me I've been abusing them erroneously!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#227360 - 02/19/08 09:29 PM Re: Proud owner of a new Pa2xpro
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Diki,
as far as I'm aware it's used for programming guitar tracks from scratch & done in steptime. You get different strum types.
These strum types are programmed in the lowest octave. The C gives a full down strum D a full up strum F full down mute body etc etc

The next octave up records single strings.

Next Octave up triggers the RX noises.

The chord types are done via velocity ie a velocity of 1 gives a major chord,
velocity 2 maj6th , right up to a velocity of 24 which is a diminished 7th.

I had a breif play around with it a while back, it doesn't appear to work the way you think it does.

Hopefully someone can clear this up.

best wishes
Rikki

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
OK, my bad about Guitar Mode for PA1X. I thought I read somewhere they had updated the OS (or maybe they just announced they were GOING to...).

From what I gather, I was under the impression that Guitar Mode in Style Mode play was possible on the PA800/2X... The main difference from a style that was MADE using Guitar Mode is that, if you use Guitar Mode and Style Mode (at the same time), the Guitar Mode automatically maps your chords to authentic guitar voicings, whereas once it becomes a regular Style track, the regular rules for chord remapping and transposition apply, leading to a loss of the correct fingering and inversion...

Can someone confirm or correct me? I have been giving Roland a hard time for not integrating the two the way I THOUGHT Korg has done... Please don't tell me I've been abusing them erroneously!
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#227361 - 02/19/08 11:10 PM Re: Proud owner of a new Pa2xpro
spalding Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 582
Loc: Birmingham
Hi rikkisbears . I am not sure. It would not make any sense to use guitar mode in a factory made style as it would (and could never) sound as natural as a real player. Guitar mode is used in an attempt to simulate a real player, not replace one. The factory styles for the most part use real musicians playing real instruments so that every strum, every slide every note bend and every muted or ghost note sounds accurate. No matter how good you could reacreate that sound using guitar mode it taake 10 times as long to do it and would not make sense to program a factory sound that way especially as Korg had hired professional musicians to do the other factory styles.They may have added additional events to beef up the sound but i would be extremely surprised if Korg or anyone for that matter used guitar mode over using a real guitarist musician.

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-19-2008).]

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#227362 - 02/20/08 01:42 PM Re: Proud owner of a new Pa2xpro
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Spalding ,
they haven't neccesarily replaced all the guitar tracks in a style with a "guitar mode" style track ie guitar bossa has 2 maybe 3 guitar tracks, only one uses guitar mode.
I'll see if maybe I can save a midifile of the original guitar track from the style, you'll see what I mean.

I'm wondering if the 1.51 upgrade which gave us guitar mode may also be the reason why EMC XT currently doesn't appear to be able to read my PA800 styles.

I remember in one of the other posts you mentioned PA1X can read PA800 styles, can it definately read styles that have been created on a PA800 with the 1.51 operating system?? I had a couple of members on one of the forums write that my styles wouldn't load into their PA1X. Maybe they had a wrong operating system running. I couldn't help as I don't know how the PA1X upgrades versions work.

best wishes
Rikki


Quote:
Originally posted by spalding:
Hi rikkisbears . I am not sure. It would not make any sense to use guitar mode in a factory made style as it would (and could never) sound as natural as a real player. Guitar mode is used in an attempt to simulate a real player, not replace one. The factory styles for the most part use real musicians playing real instruments so that every strum, every slide every note bend and every muted or ghost note sounds accurate. No matter how good you could reacreate that sound using guitar mode it taake 10 times as long to do it and would not make sense to program a factory sound that way especially as Korg had hired professional musicians to do the other factory styles.They may have added additional events to beef up the sound but i would be extremely surprised if Korg or anyone for that matter used guitar mode over using a real guitarist musician.

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-19-2008).]
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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#227363 - 02/20/08 02:40 PM Re: Proud owner of a new Pa2xpro
spalding Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 582
Loc: Birmingham
Definately the PA1X can play PA 800 styles that were done pre version 1.02 and it does so well. There are more effects in the PA800 and so in some cases the wrong effects are in the styles but absolutelty for the majority of styles they work very well on the PA1X

Paolo Tramannoni who is a product manager for Korg Italy said

'With Pa1X, you can load Styles made with Pa800 v. 1.0x. You cannot load Styles made (or edited) with Pa800 v.1.5 or Pa2X (any version).
The new Style format includes a Guitar track, that would make no sense in Pa1X. Therefore, these Styles cannot be loaded.

Best regards,
Paolo'

And here is a link to all the styles on the Pa800 pre 1.02 version. I have them all on my PA1X hardrive
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=30370

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#227364 - 02/20/08 03:01 PM Re: Proud owner of a new Pa2xpro
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14245
Loc: NW Florida
Here's what I THOUGHT was going on. Would someone who DOES kindly correct me...

When you have a track that IS in Guitar Mode in a style, you still just play a regular chord in your left hand, correct? Then, all the strum notes, velocities, RX notes etc. are played by the style track (not by you in realtime), and the chord you played is remapped to a chord that is guitar correct....

Is that about it? You mention in one post that there ARE some styles with tracks (maybe only one per style?) that remain in Guitar Mode, while other guitar Parts are in normal...

Here's the problem, or at least the difference, as I see it. Once again, please correct me if I'm wrong...

The difference between a regular track, even though it has been recorded using a real guitarist with a MIDI guitar, and a Guitar Track, comes about when you play a chord that the guitarist DIDN'T PLAY. You have separate tracks for maj, min, 7th and diminished (that right?) on the Korg. So if you play those chords, you WILL get a correct guitar chord for those choices. BUT... if you play a chord that there is no EXACT recording of it, the NTT (note transposition table) will make the chord play the chord that you played, but NOT voiced the way a guitarist would.

On the other hand... in Guitar Mode, it will ALWAYS remap whatever whacked out chord you play to something that a guitarist WOULD play. Big difference, IMO...

For those that work with guitarists, or play one themselves, this difference between chord shapes is critical. There is something completely different between how a regular track does a Cm7+5 to an Fm7 than the Guitar Mode plays it. Guitarists don't whizz up and down the neck playing barré chords all night long. They play different shaped chords, depending on where they are. THIS is Guitar Mode's revolutionary change.

So, does anyone have a detailed description of how the Korg DOES use Guitar Mode in live play, or did I pretty much get it right?

BTW, I was somewhat confused by spalding's post here...

" It would not make any sense to use guitar mode in a factory made style as it would (and could never) sound as natural as a real player. Guitar mode is used in an attempt to simulate a real player, not replace one."

If simulating a real instrument is NOT trying to replace one, what is?

I think the problem comes from relying on manufacturer hype, rather than your own ears. Sure, they used real guitar players to make the style in the first place. But the minute you start playing different chords than THEY laid down, you are no longer listening to a live player. You are listening to a machine interpret the live player's playing! And doing a pretty poor job of it!

Guitar Mode is the beginning of the future... Parts that use genuine player techniques and chord re-voicing techniques to interpret your chord choices into genuine performances that a real guitarist WOULD play. On the Roland implementation of this feature, WHERE you play in the Chord Recognition Area determines the inversion of what is strummed. So play a C chord, then an F chord without moving your hand, and the guitar part plays a C chord, then an F chord without moving the chord. In other words, instead of a simple barré jump, it plays the F chord the way a guitarist would. As a different SHAPE, not the same shape higher or lower on the neck (which is what regular tracks do).

Can the Korg do this? It's amazing when you hear it (if you already know what a guitarist WOULD play)...


Now imagine piano parts that do the same thing (change inversion, rather than block transpose chords), horns that change inversion to keep voice leading correctly, strings, you name it... We're on the brink here folks, and it doesn't involve audio loops. It just takes the horsepower to model these more complex behaviors on to the sounds that use them.

Guitar Mode is (hopefully) just the beginning....
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#227365 - 02/20/08 03:41 PM Re: Proud owner of a new Pa2xpro
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5375
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Diki
Here is a short section from OAA manual.
http://www.4shared.com/file/38438397/b8ff4b6b/Chords.html

Is this what you mean by using inversions for accuracy?
The text is converted from German using an online translator
Manual relates to version R17; however the latest version is R28 so there may be some changes to the details

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#227366 - 02/20/08 05:52 PM Re: Proud owner of a new Pa2xpro
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Spalding ,
thank you for the link, that is awesome.
Be interesting to see if my Styleworks XT can read these.

I went to the extent of loading in the original 1.01 operating system yesterday into my PA800 & saved a couple of styles. Still didn't work in Styleworks, but my Stylfactory software was at least able to read them. Only problem was my user created styles which were done on 1.51 operating system , wouldn't work, s I'm back to 1.51.

You've saved me a heap of work, as I was going to have to copy all the styles as 1.01 if I wanted to use them in my Stylefactory software. Much appreciated.

best wishes
Rikki

p.s. looks like I may have to start reading PA1X forum as well as the PA800 forum. haahaa

Quote:
Originally posted by spalding:
Definately the PA1X can play PA 800 styles that were done pre version 1.02 and it does so well. There are more effects in the PA800 and so in some cases the wrong effects are in the styles but absolutelty for the majority of styles they work very well on the PA1X

Paolo Tramannoni who is a product manager for Korg Italy said

'With Pa1X, you can load Styles made with Pa800 v. 1.0x. You cannot load Styles made (or edited) with Pa800 v.1.5 or Pa2X (any version).
The new Style format includes a Guitar track, that would make no sense in Pa1X. Therefore, these Styles cannot be loaded.

Best regards,
Paolo'

And here is a link to all the styles on the Pa800 pre 1.02 version. I have them all on my PA1X hardrive
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=30370
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

Top
#227367 - 02/20/08 07:05 PM Re: Proud owner of a new Pa2xpro
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6020
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi Diki,
I played around with it last year when I first upgraded to 1.51.

I don't think it works the way you think.

Apologies Spalding it is recorded in realtime, but not in the same way as one would record a guitar track in my Ketron or PSR.

A single note in the lowest octave of the PA800 ( without transposition) ie D will will create a full Up strum, C will create a full down strum etc etc.

The next octave up the C note on the keyboard represents the 6th string of a guitar, the D note represents the 5th string, the E note represents the 4th string etc etc (these can be used for playing single strings for arpeggio's)
the g# gives you a power chord, the F# mutes all the strings etc etc

Next couple of octaves or so give you the rx noises, plucks , fret noises etc

Also mentions something about selecting a capo??


It's not for revoicing a chord ieto turn a c3e3g3c4 chord into a voicing that a guitar would normally play..

The style I mentioned literally has bass, drum, percussion, nylon guitar track 1, brazillian guitar track 3, & REAL NYLON GUITAR on track 2 which has been assigned to Guitar Mode Track.

It's only used for style parts.

The 1.02-1.51 manual explains how it works
http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/en/products/pa800_man.html?en

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B]
_________________________
best wishes
Rikki 🧸

Korg PA5X 88 note
SX900
Band in a Box 2022

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