Hey everyone...

I noticed where Roland has what appears to be a new ARRANGER out...the E-50 (61 key) and E-60 (76 key)

Anyone know anything about it sound-wise, how it stacks up to its rivals and what the MAP will be for both units??

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Steve A

http://www.soundclick.com/stevealtonian

Steve... they've been out for quite a while now (though you wouldn't know it from Roland's advertising). Several posters here either have or had one of these. If you do a Forum search for 'Roland E60' or 'E50', you are likely to get plenty to give you some ideas.

But, long story short... the E60 is probably the best, 76 key, mid-line speaker-ed arranger out there (in fact, it's one of the only mid-price 76's!). They are VERY different from Yamaha's, in a lot of respects, but are tough to find.

Play one if you get the chance...

Steve,
I own a music store in southern california. I sell the Roland E series. The E50 Maps at $1299 and the E60 Maps at $1499. Both keyboards have the same interface as the G70 and the E80 but don't have all the features of the more expensive models. However, for many, the price and quality of sounds, styles and features more than makes up for a few less features.

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George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

I own the E 80 Roland Keyboard and I see list price on this unit at 4490.00 at several places. Why then is it so much more expensive then the E 50 and E 60?
Bebop

Steve, I own an e60. I've had it just about a month now. I previously owned a G70. I can tell you that for about half the price of a G70 you get most everything you want or need on the e60. Sounds are excellent, almost identical to the G70. Styles are also excellent. There are fewer onboard styles, but there are a few e60 styles not on the G70 that are outstanding. And, because you can store styles, registrations, on midi on floppy disk or memory card there is no reason not to have as many styles as you want ready to load and go.

The keyboard is different than the G70. It has a slightly lighter action, but still feels good if you want to play a paino part or whatever. There are no drawbars or VK organ section on the e60, but the organ patches are very good and you can still use the D-beam to swith the rotor sim from fast to slow. Most of the other features on the G70 and E80 are resident on the e60/50. The e60 weighs about 25 lbs, that's about 10 lbs lighter than the G70.

If you can live without Rolands's excellent harmonizer and a few minor features, the E60/50 offer excellent value for the money. The E80 has the most features; the G70 is a pleasure to play; the e60 is the next best thing to eith board at a much more affordable price and weight. The e50 is like the e60 but with 61 keys. You choose.

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Cass www.cassponline.com/

cassp, the e60 is 28 lbs compared to 45 for
the G70. 17 lbs lighter..not just 10 lbs. the only things I feel at a loss on my e60 vs. the g70 are the mic input, and the optional multi-foot controller. unfortunately,
using midi pedals instead is not a viable option the way the e60 midi is programmed.
bummer that Roland got paranoid about including those 2 features, which would not add to the
weight or cost in any significant way. I guess they just were scared to lose g70 sales.

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Miami Mo

Great input everybody....

Ok then the question is how does the E-50 & 60 stack up to the Korg PA 500 and the Yamaha PSR-900 which are the others I'm kicking around.....WHICH IS BEST

It's a songwriting tool first and foremost

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Steve A

http://www.soundclick.com/stevealtonian

Steve,
The E-50 & 60 don`t have a vocal harmonizer , and I don`t think it displays notation , the E-80 does.

If your looking for the best song writing tool , then you might want to consider the Motif XS6 Synth.
You will need a computer with notation software.

The other route is the Tyros 2 , same great FSX key-bed as the Motif , but it displays both lyrics and staff notation and has a vocal harmonizer.

The T-2 is well made but getting old and might be replaced later this year , no time frame has been given.

The PSR-S900 has most of the T-2 features , but lacks the build quality , you lose the FSX key-bed and quality control surfaces. But you will save almost 2K.

The Pa500 has no vocalizer and does not display notation , lyrics I`m not sure , the Pa800 only does lyrics and not staff notation .

So by now you must be fairly confused , misery loves company !! LOL
Welcome to the world of arranger shopping !!

I hope I have helped , best of luck !

Gary 

that is a good queston, i wonder also, i previoulsy had the pa50, and now i have the E60, and i like the sounds of it (drums are soo good!) but i still have the feeling pa50 did a little bit better. just my oppinion.
compared to pa500, i believe the difference would be even more noticeable.

anyway, E60 is still a great deal. you get 76 keys (be aware that the keys are different than E50, longer, nicer feel) you get great styles, good sounds, light weight, great build quality, beautifull design (i think is the best apart from "big boys" arrangers) nice OS and very good support and advice on www.roland-arranger.com, non-official roland forum.

if you need to buy without see, highly not reccomended, you need to listen to the demos vrey close and compare with whatever options you have. pa500 seems appealing, at about the same price, you need to balance very carefully what you get with either of these two keyboards.

Mo have you thought of adding the
NEW TC Helicon Harmony M unit to the E60? This combo could make the E60 much more desirable for vocals & fill the void!
http://www.tc-helicon.com/VoiceToneHarmonyM.asp

I think we need to be careful to remember exactly what Steve wants to use the keyboard for. A songwriting tool first and foremost.

A built in harmonizer is not needed for this (and, IMO, are little more than a gimmick for OMB's). Anyone recording a song is going to use real BV's...

There are some important questions that need to be asked before the right choice can be arrived at....

How well do you play, Steve? (Is the quality and size of the keyboard important at all?)

What style of music do you write in? (WS's are better for modern, cutting edge styles, arrangers are better at 'meat and potatoes' styles)

Do you intend to lay guitars down as real instruments, or do you need an arranger with realistic guitar parts? (Yamaha S900 is a good choice if you do)

Do you intend to record FINAL parts, or just make demos? (WS's, though much more complicated, ARE what they use on CD's much more than arrangers)

Do you have ANY experience making recordings with a computer sequencer and a WS? (If not, an arranger will get you up and running MUCH faster and easier than a WS)

Come back with these answers, and we can perhaps advise you better...

The e60 does display notation, chords and lyrics, just like its bigger brothers. That is very good!
Steve, if you are songwriting, don't discount the larger, 76 notes of the e60 keyboard, especially if you plan to play or record live. In step recording you might not need or use the extra notes, but in playing you will appreciate them. The e60 styles (and access to the other G/E styles) are the most LIVE sounding that I'm aware of. I do a little writing and find the Roland to be much more inspiring than the Yamahas. I can't speak for the Korg styles now, but when I owned one they were great, but very out-front styles as opposed to the more subtle Roland rhythms.

Really excellent feedback guys...

As long as I can string together sequences(INTRO,VERSE,CHORUS..ETC), punch in and out...And play into the sequences with 2 hands...(don't know how to play 1 handed)

76 keys I agree would be optimal...

The bass and drums from the arranger I would probably use and play everything else manually

Thanks

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Steve A

http://www.soundclick.com/stevealtonian

Donny, only thing i would use harmonizer for
would be pitch correction..in a loud situation
where my natural voice could not be heard so it
wouldn't sound like doubling..

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Miami Mo

I use the Vocalizer alot for many songs which require it mostly 50, 60's doo wopp stuff its a main staple in that sound....using it correctly is an art form in itself...I dont recomend pitch correction at all.....hey if someone is off key thats a problem nothing is gonna rectify but themselves, you have to hear what your singing..

Steve... At some point or another in making a songwriter demo, you ARE going to have to record your voice (and anything else you need outside the arranger).

The Roland arrangers have no recording (audio) capability. The sequencer is quite powerful, but more linear oriented than you indicate. However, with an arranger, getting your verses, choruses and in/out sections in one pass is a snap. Once the building blocks are down, it's easy to cut them up into the component sections, and rearrange those if you want.

But, at some point or another, you are going to have to transfer it to a computer DAW, and do the acoustic stuff. BTW, THIS is where you'll be applying any pitch correction you need. Donny is mistaken in thinking this won't be needed... Every pro recording done nowadays uses Auto-Tune or equivalents - at least subtly.

If using a DAW is completely out (I wouldn't recommend this, but it CAN be done), your choices narrow considerably at the price point you can afford. Only WS's (and even those are on the high dollar side, like MotifXS and FantomG) have usable multi-track (that part's important) audio recorders built in. Arranger audio recording tends to be more 'one take scratchpad' features.

But an inexpensive computer (you are probably posting on it!) can do quite sophisticated audio production at a bargain price. All of my production and songwriting demo work is done this way... Use the arranger to get the rhythm section fine tuned, then record to the computer, add the vocals, acoustic instruments (and maybe some cutting edge loop stuff if you need it), mix and master in the box. Simple, powerful, inexpensive.

The final choice as to which arranger, I feel, should be left to your ears alone. Advice from here rarely comes from those with the same goals, age group, music tastes and skill level as you. Auditioning them for yourself, getting to know the differences in 'sound' and style choices (style CREATION is fairly complex) that the arrangers have is paramount. I would NOT recommend buying sight unseen.

But your short list to audition, I think, at your price point should probably be Yamaha S900, Roland E60, and Korg PA500 (should be over here soon). If you are writing hiphop, techno, rap, etc., you might also take a look at the Yamaha MM6. Very inexpensive, but can do those style better than most arrangers.

If you MUST do everything in the keyboard (not my recommendation!), you might save a bit more and spring for a MotifXS, or maybe (when they get here) a new FantomG-series. but you'll need an extra $500-1000 over budget.

Hope this helps.

Helps?

I think I'll sell all my stuff and just play the radio. It sounds like way too much work for an artist.

Couldn't I just use my arranger and a cassette deck?

Where would anyone get the impression that being an artist ISN'T hard work...?

Being an unsuccessful artist is the easy part... Succeeding ALWAYS takes a LOT of work. Nowadays, record companies, A&R people and promoters expect a VERY high standard of demo. Almost CD-ready. The days of handing someone a cassette have LONG gone (to all but the unbelievably lucky).

In the real world, songwriters use DAWs, WSs, arrangers, and everything else available, and still are not guaranteed success...

DIKI

Really excellent insight ALL the way around...I appreciate all your time and advice...

I did play the E-60 at GEORGE KAYES TODAY AND WAS AS IMPRESSED WITH THE BOARD AS I WAS BY GEORGE HIMSELF...If I wasn't short about $500 plus I would've walked out with it...Plus my wife got robbed with my money at gunpoint last night so i couldn't pull the trigger (she's ok though)

Let me clarify something though..I am planning on using the new keyboard as inspiration and for a "scratch pad" as a songwriting tool...

I only have a guitar now and haven't had a keyboard in 3 years...NO STUDIO...and no plans to get one..

I handle the singing and songwriting chores & go into a studio and hire session musicians...I play well but I AM NOT A SESSION PLAYER...As a rule of thumb I don't play on my own tracks just sing...(The metronome can never keep up with me)

You can check out my web-site at the bottom of the page for the song "TELL ME WHY" which I just completed...TOTAL COST $1000 including 4 session players and studio time..(you'll love the violin and steel guitar)

I just had the guitar player play it like I would stylisically and play it technically way better then I ever would...

It's my hope to do the same with my piano written songs and to write new ones with the new keyboard I decide on...I have some special songs I've NEVER recorded and I'm sure more songs are to be written...

Anyways check out the tune and maybe you'll get a better idea of what i'm about...

BTW this was my 1st country tune

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Steve A

http://www.soundclick.com/stevealtonian

Steve nice website & very nice songs, I enjoyed lisening.

Good luck with your project!

Steve,
Thanks for coming into my store today. We did have fun! I enjoyed meeting you and showing you what are arrangers are capable of doing. I hope to see you again soon. I too enjoyed listening to your songs and visiting your web site.



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George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

Nice website, good songs. Steve, I think you'll find that an an arranger keyboard will help you compose and perform your songs much easier. Think of all the studio time and money you could save by recording your stuff yourself with some simple PC software ( or a small 4-8 track recorder) to go with your arranger. Just a thought; your arrangements are simple enough to do solo.

BTW, stick with George Kaye. He'll do you right and steer you into the right keyboard for you. He's knowledgeable of most make and models and he's a good guy too. Good luck.

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Cass www.cassponline.com/

Donny,
pitch correction is as legit as any other tool we use. most incorrectly think they are in perfect tune just because they think they are not horrible..there are so many degrees of being out of tune.

it's more than ears, because
if we record we can usually hear where we are
not quite there and we are all surprised and depressed when we are not. but it's harder to hear when in the act of singing, plus a lot has little to do with ears, but with untrained sound production technique. you can have fantastic ears for pitch and still sing out of tune.
try this..ask a disinterested party to listen to you sing with and without the pitch correction (has to be far enough away or with
loud enough background music to cover your
natural unmiked voice) ask that person which way you sound better..I'll put money on it
thatthey say you sound a LOT better with the
pitch correction.

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Miami Mo

A little off topic, but not really: HankB has an E50. His MusicPad Pro thing fits perfectly, landscape-oriented, on the music rack. It looks as if it were made for it.
DonM

Lucky thing she didn't recognize you .

Sorry, sorry, sorry, I couldn't help it. Getting robbed at gunpoint is no laughing matter, but the (unintentional, I'm sure) phrasing made me chuckle.

On topic, I use an arranger to both write and "quick-arrange" new tunes. I work with several singer/songwriters in the area. However I find myself using workstations to track 'final' instrument parts (although, in most cases, arranger voices are just as good, quality-wise). I don't use either for live performance (jazz organ trio). For serious demos, I would look elsewhere for recording capability although either might be okay for a "quick-and-dirty".

Although it's easy to say 'throw money at the problem', I'd say, get the best instrument you can, arranger or workstation, at the budget you've set, and start a new savings campaign for some decent recording equipment. At your price point, I don't think you can find something that will fill both requirements to your satisfaction. Just an opinion.

chas

CHAS

Yeah I totally agree...I've had a "used" TRITON EXTREME 76 on layaway at GUITAR CENTER for 3 weeks now....at $900...was just kicking around the idea of an ARRANGER

Last night they set it up for me and it just blew me away...I can just get a dedicated drum machine for fills/intros etc...But i can copy all the drum patterns to the sequencer...I THINK THE SOUNDS ARE AWESOME INCLUDING PIANOS...

The ARRANGERS accompaniment I wouldn't utilize as well a several other functions...

I felt the extreme 76 "ACTION" felt much better action wise than the ROLAND FANTOM 61...I CAN GET A NEW ONE OF THOSE FOR $1300 (floor model only)

But I felt the extreme 76 was better in so many ways...touchscreen and all the COMBI SOUNDS...TOUGH CALL THOUGH AND IT IS NEW

The Fantom may have a drum machine on board which I'm waiting for Roland to open to confirm...

But I agree I need a workstation...But I did investigate the ARRANGER avenue pretty thoroughly...Not quite for me for my ONLY board...

Now USED 76 KEY TRITON EXTREME $900 or "NEW" floor model "FANTOM 61" for $1300???

Thanks

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Steve A
http://www.soundclick.com/stevealtonian

[This message has been edited by Steve A (edited 02-14-2008).]

Hands down, go for the Triton Extreme. With 76 keys and those great Triton sounds - go get it.

I agree with Cass about those Triton sounds. I prefer it over my MotifES and my SonicCell (FantomX engine?) but of course, that's purely subjective.

chas

It's just a shame that those Triton pianos suck bigtime... even the expander board. Get the sample loading option SCSI board, and look around at some sampled Akai sets. I don't think you'll be happy piano-wise until you do...

Hold on a second... Korg have released the PA800's piano as an upgrade for the PA1X. Presumably, you load it into the sample RAM. Does anyone know if this piano has been released for the Triton series sampler? This one is playable, at least...

I still think that we are getting song-WRITING and song PRODUCTION confused, here...

If you want to make the final CD for release, then a Triton is a great tool. But if you want to sit down at a keyboard, and experiment with chord progressions over an inspiring rhythm, and try to write a song, quickly, the Triton will only slow you down. I think an arranger is by FAR the better tool for writing the song. You seemed to indicate that the recording end will be done with real musicians at a later stage (and don't let anyone kid you that doing it all on a Triton or anything else, for that matter, will sound as good as the live players!).

Be careful about using the wrong tool for the job...

BTW, I have a Triton as well as an arranger... the Triton stays in the studio, and sees active use on CDs. But my arranger goes home with me every night, and gets played for when I am working on songs, trying to arrange, trying different 'feels' out on a song...

You can't do this with a Triton. By the time you have written the different drum loops, laid down a bass line, a few chord tracks, an hour has gone by, and the inspiration (or the desire to experiment) has gone. On an arranger, you can try a dozen different 'feels', a dozen different structure arrangements on a dozen different tunes all in the same time! That's the song-WRITING aspect.

Don't get the two confused.

Diki's advice is exactly what I explained to Steve when he came into my store. I explained to him that the Triton is great if you have the knowledge and the time to record every track you would need for your song. You would have to record a drum track, then a bass track, etc. etc.
The arranger on the other hand would allow you to just get your idea down quickly and easily and especially if keyboard isn't your main instrument, you wouldn't have to be a great drummer to record drums, a bass player to record bass, etc. etc.
I also told him and showed Steve the negative of the Korg Triton piano sound compared to the Roland piano sound.
Usually, my Trition, Motif and Fantom customers are not my guitar player/piano player/ singer/songwriter customer. These are usually the arranger customers.
It's interesting to note that at this years NAMM show the product manager from Korg for pianos and arranger keyboards is trying to get the word arranger out of the korg advertising and replace it with the word "songwriters keyboard". This sort of sums it all up!


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George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com