http://www.keyboardplayer.com

Bill

Got to pay £2.50 for the article...?

Sorry... We get those here for free!

Exactly.We can give more insider input than Jim aikin or Ernie,because we use them everyday,inside out and real world experiences than 1-7 days review with maunual copy -pasting.

not to mention comparism with other similar boards out there.Try tellin them that.



[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 02-02-2008).]

Not familiar with the US, but in the UK the reviewers are professional musicians who as well as playing their own instruments, play many others during the year.

Bill

Well, I guess that puts Donny right in there, wouldn't you say? Along with many of our members...

Professional musicians, who, apart from their own instruments, play many other keyboards during the year...

Writing style may suffer a bit here (not many of us care much about that, from what I read ), but at least most of us are not beholden to our advertisers, nor have much editorial oversight. Other than the natural tendency to pump what we actually play, most reviews of other keyboards seem reasonably unbiased, to me.

Add to this that few of the magazine reviewers ever actually PLAY an arranger in their so-called 'professional' part of their careers, to be honest, I'd set more stock in an SZ review than these things. I'll read it for free, but no way I pay £2.50 to read what a WS user thinks about an arranger!

Other than Donny, who never has a bad thing to say about an arranger (that he owns) UNTIL he gets a new one, most of us here are pretty willing to mention possible flaws, wacky OS choices and poor button layout. You'll rarely hear that from a magazine review.

Sorry, but no thanks... (and to be honest, I take it ALL with a grain of salt - OK, a bag-full! - until I play them myself!)

Hi Diki
You misunderstand, some of the above posts indicated that magazine reviewers are not really qualified to review instruments; however I do know that the reviewers for the 2 main Arranger/Organ UK magazines are qualified.
The Keyboard Player magazine is dedicated to Arrangers, Organs and Electronic Digital Pianos, with very seldom any mention of WS except in interviews with artists that use them.
Keyboard Player also adds in computer music, in such a way that Home Players can understand and try out.
Hope this makes it clearer

Bill

Thanks Bill,
I personally wouldn't have any hesitation in paying for the article if I was planning on buying a PA2X.
But, since I already own a PA800, I know how brilliant they anyway.
thank you

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by abacus:
[B]

So can you give us a short free overview? of the article I mean.

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 02-03-2008).]

The reviewer, John Bates by name, seemed thrilled with the Pa2xPRO. One of his most noted adulations was for the Style Programming which he thought was excellent. Korg used what is called "intelligent software" when programming the Styles to create amazing life-like guitar fingered and strum parts into the Factory Styles and this same clever software is inside the Pa2xPRO to allow users the ability to create decent guitar backing parts as well. The author also noted that there is about a half dozen ways to edit the fill/variation feature, altering them to ones own preference and thereby influencing and predicting how a fill is used in context with the variations within the Style backing. Translation: "There apparently is still a glitch in the factory built-in Style fill-in/variation feature on the Pa2xPRO but a person is able to edit and alter the factory settings and thereby hopefully reduce or eliminate the anomaly when activating a fill-in while transitioning between variation(s)." Instead of Korg taking the initiative and eliminating the anomaly themselves they are leaving it up to the user to do it himself if he deems it necessary. Yippee...

The author also noted that when he was playing in a quiet environment he noticed that the keys on the Pa2xPRO made a clattering sound and when he played staccato he noticed that the keys visibly and audibly "quivered" their way back to their initial position. I assume from his reaction that he didn't really care for the clattering and quivering keys on the Pa2xPRO. The trick is to never play it at low volume in a quiet environment I guess...

Also from what I gathered, the author especially liked the guitar sounds and he also mentioned that he really liked the RX Alto Sax and the Brass sounds, which he thought were voiced well. He thought a lot of the Styles were brilliant and oozed with musicality and he also mentioned that the Sliders on the Pa2xPRO could be used as Drawbars for the Organs and that there is a high level of complexity (a good thing) in integrating the functionality of the Drawbars with the Organ sounds via the sliders plus the other uses for the sliders as well. The Pa2xPRO has a vast (and superior) effects section which are entirely programmable as well as every sound on the Pa2xPRO for that matter. The Dual Sequencers have micro-editing capability (such as you would encounter on a full blown workstation such as the Korg M3, etc.) The Pa2xPRO has some ultra smart recording and audio editing/import routines as well. You can import or record and edit audio material into a perfect looped beat. It's not easy to do as the author noted; but it is highly efficient according to him. You can also slice the audio loops so that they can comply with any tempo changes as well.

The author, in his own words, had this to say about the Pa2xPRO: "The Pax2PRO can be, literally, anything you want it to be. It is an istrument that combines state-of-the-art facilities with the art of live music performance and artistic creation. At present, it is in a class of its own."

Okay, everybody start scrambling to get your mitts on the new high-end arranger that has apparently supplanted the Tyros2 as the new KING of arrangers. That's an order soldier!!! Left, left, left right left. Left, left, left right left.. Now appearing at a store near you. If you can find one. No, not the store - the Pa2xPRO... >> It's a special order item only at GC. Not sure if the other big box stores, such as Sam Ash, etc., have 'em in stock either. For a Mom and Pop store I know George Kaye has them in stock. At least he did a few days ago anyway. Although he might have already sold out of them.

Best,
Mike

Hi Mike,
actually being able to set up the fills is a very handy function. There's 14 of them.
You can set up a fill to step thru the variations increasing or decreasing.
You can set it up to go to a particular variation alternate between two of them etc . If you leave it set off, it self fills.

Actually had 8 variations on the KN7, & to me a lot of those didn't really work.

Must admit 8 fills & a break would be brilliant on the PA. haahaa ( no such luck)

One way to give a bit of extra variety is to just use a pad as a drum fill.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by keybplayer:
[B] The author also noted that there is about a half dozen ways to edit the fill/variation feature, altering them to ones own preference and thereby influencing
and predicting how a fill is used in context with the variations within the Style backing. Translation: "There apparently is still a glitch in the factory built-in Style fill-in/variation feature on the Pa2xPRO but a person is able to edit and alter the factory settings and thereby hopefully reduce or eliminate the anomaly when activating a fill-in while transitioning between variation(s)."

Thanks Mike for the report. I'm really excited about getting my 800 and using its strengths. Life is good with music

Whilst I do I agree that the PA2XPro is in a "class by itself"...so are the Yamaha Tyros2 (best 61-note arranger) and the Roland G70 (best 76-note arranger), it's my opinion the PA2XPro seems to slip somewhere between them.

The fact that the style fills on the PA2XPro are still problematic (glitchy?) is not progress, and the clickity clackity (and "quivering"?) keyboard that didn't bode favorably with the "qualified" reviewer, is also a step back.

"Tunderin' Toadstools, Mick, she sounds just like me old Underwood".

I'm sure the PA2XPro will find a place in the hearts and on the keyboard stands of numerous people....but it is far from "King of arrangers"...it's just another King in a different suit.

Ian

I'm sort of confused.. aren't the style composition functions and Guitar modes available now in the PA800? The Keyboard mag review makes it sound like this is something new and only available in the Pa2xpro?

Can someone enlighten me?

------------------
Al Giordano
http://www.arrangerworld.com


Tyros 2, Yamaha P-250, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland SPD-S.

The more i hear about peoples reviews of the PA2X the more i have to smile to myself about the great marketing trick korg has done on the buying public.

The only thing that was mentioned in the article that is differnt to the PA1X is the guitar mode. Where were they when the PA1X emerged ? How come the Tyros was outselling the PA series before when virtually the same functionality exists in the new "king" PA2X ? Some one should be looking at where the reviewer gets their advertising revenue from becuase the trumpeting of these "new " features is just laughable.

See this is how manufacturers make their money. They rely upon people not digging into their instruments so that they can sell them the same instrument with a new gloss again. Absolutely genius.....

I currently have a Tyros 2 and a Pa2XPro sitting side by side. I turned the volume right down on both of them and played the keys softly, heavily, and in staccato fashion. The noise from the Tyros was very similar to that on the Pa2XPro. If anything the Tyros had a thud at the end of the key stroke which was not present on the Pa2X. I don't see or hear any quivering on either, the keys come right back to where they should be.

I had never noticed the noise on the Tyros before even when playing quietly in church. IMHO, this is a non-issue on both keyboards.

Graham

Usually all keyboards make a little sound when played in the quiet, although my PSR-S900's are pretty silent...perhaps the PA2XPro the reviewer was playing was an early production model....who knows?

How about the PA2XPro's style fills Graham....were they glitchy? Smooth?

Ian

Hi Al,
maybe the reviewer hasn't played the PA800.haahaa
Yes Guitar mode, & the same style creation/playing functions etc are on both the PA800 & The PA2X as far as I'm aware.

best wishes
rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kbrkr:
[B]I'm sort of confused.. aren't the style composition functions and Guitar modes available now in the PA800?

Ian, so far the fills seem fine. I have noticed an increase in volume on the simple (3) ending and a long sustain of the lower note. Seems unusual, to me at the moment.

Graham

Couldn't agree more. This applies to our self-appointed experts, as well, who went gaa gaa (ga-ga?) over the PA800 although it was basically a scaled-down PA1x with a couple of minor enhancements and basically the same styles (after the free downloadable upgrade to the PA1x). As usual, all the ballyhoo lasted the usual 3-6 months it took to switch arrangers yet again. When will the 'flock' learn? Speaking of that, I'd better get the 'flock' out of here before the missiles start flying.

chas

About the only REALLY significant improvement in the PA2X, IMO, is the doubling of the polyphony. Oh, and the new piano, but you can load that into a PA1X if you want.

But Korg have already acknowledged that, for many of the 'Guitar Mode' styles, you really need that extra polyphony. No doubt, any future styles will be voiced with this in mind. So, for future-proofing yourself for the next few years (Korg are exceptionally good at providing OS updates to add newer model features to older models), I think I would have to recommend going the extra expense and springing for the PA2X, if you are looking for a 76, or a PA800 if 60.

Polyphony is just one of those walls you can't break down.. and will only become more of an Achilles heel as you start to use stereo samples in the sampler, which also is much improved re. it's max RAM and load time. It's funny how probably the most IMPORTANT improvements are the ones trumpeted the least by the manufacturer. Or maybe, do they KNOW we just respond to the glitz, and couldn't care less about about the engine under the hood?

Yeah, I agree. The polyphony is the biggest improvement on the Pa2x over the Pa1x. That and the Guitar Mode. Everything else is just superficial in my opinion. And I was only expressing the 'buzz' that the author of keyboard player magazine was attempting to portray since it is yet to be determined if the Pa2x will indeed supplant the Tyros2 as the latest/greatest high-end Arranger currently on the market. I mean the Tyros2 already has the Pa2x beat in the polyphony department as does my Tyros i.e. 128 vs. 120 for the Korg. The Pa2x has a 'real' sampler of course as well dual sequencers and more keys at 76 but what will really determine a winner is which ones "sounds" the best. In the end sounds always trump features. Even though we know the Pa2x sounds 'good', the full and final evaluation is still forthcoming since it is so new on the market. We'll know more in a month or two... or six.

Best,
Mike

I've owned and gigged with the Tyros 2 and Korg PA800.

I agree on some of the Korg fills are out of no where with volume and the amount of instruments compared to the variation you were on.

the T2 fills were very smooth almost to the point of not even noticing they were there.

The T2 had more styles that were song specific, meaning the style was based on a certain song rather than a style. could be a good point or bad.

The T2 vocalizer was a slap in the face to professional musicians, a $3000 plus keyboard with a $5 vocalizer.

I like the T2 OS but the more I use the PA800 the easier it seems to be.

T2 had some incredible signature sounds that are amazing.

Midi file playback hands down better on the PA series, better deeper fuller bass and drum sounds, I always had to eq each style on the T2, adding bass and treble to the drums and raising the volume.

The PA800 has a more open live type sound, as the T2 was more compressed finished sound.

They are both top line arrangers, of course with the "blue " of the 800 and the Starship lights of the T2, it's hard to see who is the more professional looking.

As for the PA800/2xpro compared to the PA1x series.

I had both series in my possesion for a while and once you really start playing and listening, it seemed the newer series had a nicer tone and overall balance, not by much but it did.
plus the newer USB stuff, Polyphony, lighter weight. May not be much but it is a step ahead.

sorry for the long post

The differences between the Pa1x and 2X are really minimal unless you do a lot of sampling or are likely to import large commercial samples. Of course the polyphony is an extra added benefit but in reality you would not notice it unless you use heavy layered multiple phat sweeping strings and chords throughout a song or sequence.

The Pa range is geared to the all round musician who is comfortable in both live performance and studio/recording/sound creation etc use.

This is where the Korg range diferentiates itself from other arranger keyboards on the market.

Thanks Rikki,

Thanks for the clarification. I thought I was going bonkers there for a minute.

As the resident Style creation expert, where do you rank the Yamaha, Roland, and Korg boards in terms of creating new styles and creating styles from midi files?

Thanks and Regards,
Al





------------------
Al Giordano
http://www.arrangerworld.com


Tyros 2, Yamaha P-250, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland SPD-S.

According to the Korg Rep, the reason the polyphony was increased was because the Guitar mode gobbles it up.
If you compare the PA1x and 2x side by side, you will find the sounds to be quite a bit better on the 2x, (At least when you compare them to Real instruments, rather then other boards) however whether there is a big enough jump in quality to upgrade, each owner will have to decide.
BTW there will probably be some good deals on the remaining PA1x, so don’t dismiss it just because the PA2x has come out. (Remember a great player will still sound great on an older keyboard, and a bad player will still sound bad on the latest keyboard)

Bill

Hi Al,
I certainly wouldn't call myself a style creation expert ( haahaa) stylenut is more like it.
As far as the keyboards go, I can't comment on the Roland, I haven't owned one in years.

For onboard style creation / editing functions, the PA800 leaves my psr lagging behind..
Apart from realtime recording functions which they both have (& I'm not musical enough to use)
They both have the ability to copy a style track from one style to another ie copy a bass track , or a drum track from 8beat 1 to 8beat 2, thereby with this mix n match method, you can create some interesting new styles without a great deal of effort.

The pA800 can copy a complete style part
( not just a track )ie a variation or intro etc to another style. Not sure if my psr can, but the same result can be acheived by copying individual tracks across, just takes longer.

The PA800 has the ability of importing & exporting a style part as a midifle to an external sequencer.
Where I'm finding this handy at the moment is for converting psr styles into PA800 styles & editing the drums.
Where possible I try & avoid using EMC for converting my psr styles.Quite often it really messes up the drum conversion & the minor Intro's & Endings of the style.. Instead I turn the psr style into a midifile, Powertrack Pro 12 splits the drum & percussion into individual tracks. I can then edit the velocity of these tracks & transpose them so the correct drum instruments are playing. I then use the import function in the PA to create the style parts.
Another thing the import smf function can be used for is to create new intro's & endings for styles.
ie if I happened to find a really good intro in one of my midifiles & I wanted to incorporate it into a style, I'd just load it into my sequencer, delete the additional song parts, make sure all the tracks are on the correct midi channels & import it into a style.

One other neat feature is I can copy a pad into a style.
How I'd use this is, it's far easier to create a pad than it is a whole style.
So if I find an interesting guitar track, or piano track just say a set of piano arpeggio's in one of my old psr styles.
turn the style into a midifile. Delete all the other data, Save the arpeggio as a midifile, import it into a pad.
Now I can audition the pad with numerous onboard styles. If I find some styles that the arpeggio pads work well with, I can copy them into the style itself, thereby basically creating a new style of sorts, especially if I also change the intro.
I did this with one of the onboard Bequine styles. Deleted existing guitar & bass & replaced it with tracks from a psr Bequine including an Intro & Ending.

Probably most of this stuff can be done on the earlier PA's also, I don't know as the last one I owned goes back to the i2.
A lot of this stuff can also be done for psr styles , but via external software like OMB, Jorgens Midi2 style, Michaels Stylemaker software.

One thing my psr definately can't do is play drum audio loops ie I can create pads & drum & percussion style tracks from audio files that sync perfectly with a style. Haven't bothered with many just a few jazz brush drum swishes. Midi brush swishes don't compare with audio.

Sorry Al, you did ask haahaa

best wishes
Rikki
By the way I've got at least a couple orso more styles for your forum, I'll send them later today.