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#223924 - 01/08/08 11:16 AM New ideas for 2008
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Come on, folks. Here is one of the largest gatherings of arranger players on the web. How about some NEW ideas for arrangers (that NO-ONE has got yet) to springboard the year off...

Mine would be (amongst many!), a 'half-time, double-time' button (a la Steinberg's Groove Agent), that would push the drummer part (and bass part too, probably) into a 'half-time' feel (not halving the entire tempo, just halving the kick and snare, mostly), or double-time (great for those swing tunes).

No arranger has got this feature, yet it is more MUSICAL than most of the half-brained ideas they come out with...

Anyone else...?
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#223925 - 01/08/08 11:21 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
captain Russ Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
Like that idea, Diki and I would use it all the time.

Just wonder if enough others would to make it a viable alteration.

Be neat, though,


R.

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#223926 - 01/08/08 11:30 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Great idea, Diki..."half time/double time" button would definitely be useful to me.

I would also want a half measure button on the Yamahas....AND physical sliders for the mixer section that would also be assignable(drawbars for instance).

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#223927 - 01/08/08 12:03 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
cassp Offline
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Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
I would like to see more breaks and fills. I'd also like to be able to easily mute accompaniment and or rhythm, say for a measure or so.
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#223928 - 01/08/08 12:20 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Dnj Offline
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
I love my Pa800 for now not much I would want to change....but here's one small thing...

Have the ability to have the
Style mode & Song mode be able to Play SIMULTANIOUSLY AT THE SAME TIME instead of having to switch modes....all the above mentions would be useless to me for my needs sorry.

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#223929 - 01/08/08 12:26 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Fran Carango Offline
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Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Cass, your G70 covered those...but you sold it

Good news ..so will your new E-60
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#223930 - 01/08/08 12:39 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Fran Carango Offline
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Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Diki, that 8 track audio recorder was only a $50 update on the fantom...So we only use the single stereo track to record...we don't have to use all 8 stereo tracks..For me I can see usefulness..Dead nights at the club..My band could put together backing tracks...Of course you are right, I would also have my laptop on hand to do the same thing..

The MP3 player will be a welcomed feature for me..here's hoping they take a page from Domenic..and allow us to change keys..too
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#223931 - 01/08/08 12:41 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Fran Carango Offline
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Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Of course if Roland does it right...I won't need that laptop on the gig...
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#223932 - 01/08/08 12:43 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Fran Carango Offline
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Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
I also want larger media storage devices..[40 Gigs}...so we are not so limited to store audio files too..
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#223933 - 01/08/08 12:59 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
A $4000+ arranger to do the work of a $200 iPod?

I know for all the karaoke acts out there, mp3 playback would be handy, but why an 8-track? OK, OK, throw it in for $50 more than a G70 costs now, cool. But I think it just shows a lack of understanding about what ARRANGER players need and want.

Fran, you yourself have a LONG list of 'why did they change THAT?!" from the G1000. I just think this is one more example of Roland not having the slightest clue about what is and isn't important to arranger users. Add all this bullsh*t to the G-series AFTER they've got the OS and MIDI features right, but not as a SUBSTITUTE for it...
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#223934 - 01/08/08 01:07 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
But we've got into the wrong thread with these last comments...

How about some NEW ideas (not just ideas from some other arranger you haven't got)...

Here's another... Why not a Break/Fill for EACH variation, appropriate to the complexity of the level?
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#223935 - 01/08/08 01:17 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Dnj Offline
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Diki.....
just because you think you need all these new things doesn't mean anyone else uses them or knows how, or even wants them, is this stuff gonna make me more money on stage ? I doubt it.....I'm very sure that Roland is very competent & knows exactly what they are doing or they wouldn't be in business this long. Believe me they already know & have in the works the next 10 years of new designs in motion as do all the other manufacturers......remember first comes making money for these company our concerns & wish lists follow way behind.

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#223936 - 01/08/08 03:19 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
Cass, your G70 covered those...but you sold it

Good news ..so will your new E-60


Fran, if you're trying to make me feel guilty you're doing a good job until I sit down at my XK-1 Oh well...
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#223937 - 01/08/08 06:01 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Donny, just because you CAN'T think of anything you'd like (but will wait until it comes out and then you MUST have it ) doesn't mean anyone else should give up... Actually, there were a couple of positive replies to the idea, from some of our more competent members.

And, let's face it, if the PA800 had a half-time button, and nobody else had it, you would be gushing about how useful it is (and how many gigs a day you do) all over this forum. I'm sorry it isn't another mp3 player idea, it must be annoying to see suggestions about MUSICAL features and not just pre-canned backing tracks, but if you use an arranger to PLAY, rather than just as an overblown iPod (as I'm sure you do ), any idea that hasn't yet been tried on an arranger that gives a MUSICAL improvement is fine by me. MAYBE someone at Y/K/R who hasn't thought of this idea will go 'duh! why haven't we got this yet?' and start to work on it. Maybe not. But they sure aren't thinking about YOUR needs. Because, apparently, you have none (until something you haven't thought about comes out, and THEN you'll be wanting it!).

Me, I like to dream, and talk it over with fellow users. But if you don't, why not just press the 'Back' button instead of criticizing those of us willing to discuss possible improvements?
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#223938 - 01/09/08 05:20 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
why not just press the 'Back' button instead of criticizing.....


The name of the game.....forget the MERITS of an idea, post, or musical instrument; if you don't like the poster, start the "put-downs". Classic grade-school behavior.

chas

Oh yeah, .
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#223939 - 01/09/08 06:55 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
Tom Cavanaugh Offline
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Registered: 12/06/99
Posts: 2133
Loc: Muskegon, MI
I would like an arranger that allowed you to mute parts of a style independently on EACH variation. Why is it that if you mute parts on variation b they are muted on all variations.

While we are at it, on the G70 if you mute parts of a style and then stop and select a new style, those parts are still muted. They should reset upon selecting a new style.

Tom
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#223940 - 01/09/08 08:30 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
I'd like to see "drag & drop" file handling implemented in the Korg OS utilizing the touch screen and Windows/Mac style graphics. This could be expanded to some musical functions as well. As much as I like the PA1xPro, I'm not a big fan of the non-musical functions of their OS. JMO.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#223941 - 01/09/08 08:34 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
Dnj Offline
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Quote:
Originally posted by cgiles:
Classic grade-school behavior.



Like gang mentality eh?

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#223942 - 01/09/08 08:39 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:

Like gang mentality eh?




Not quite sure what you're trying to say here, Donny. Just so I don't misinterpret your implications, could you please elaborate?

chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#223943 - 01/09/08 08:54 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
tony mads usa Offline
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Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
Quote:
Originally posted by cgiles:

Not quite sure what you're trying to say here, Donny. Just so I don't misinterpret your implications, could you please elaborate?
chas


No, instead of ELABORATING, why not keep this thread on the track Diki started ... let's not start the 'schoolyard crap' again ... SHEEEEESH!!!

Diki ... I also would like the "half time/double time" ability, and in fact have stated that in various threads through the years ...
A lot of my work is 'background to dinner' music in country clubs, and the 'dble time' feature would be quite useful ...
I have set a couple of Panel Memory registrations on my kn6000 to 'double' the tempo of a particular rhythm/style, but it only works for certain styles ...

I think one problem is that many of us just don't know what new feature we would like until a manufacturer produces it, and then we can decide how it should be improved ...

t.
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#223944 - 01/09/08 11:36 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by tony mads usa:
No, instead of [b]ELABORATING, why not keep this thread on the track Diki started ... let's not start the 'schoolyard crap' again ... SHEEEEESH!!!


[/B]


Noble sentiments, Tony. Why didn't you post it back here....

----------------------------------
"Diki.....
just because you think you need all these new things doesn't mean anyone else uses them or knows how, or even wants them, is this stuff gonna make me more money on stage ? I doubt it.....

------------------------------------

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#223945 - 01/09/08 01:03 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
tony mads usa Offline
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Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
Quote:
Originally posted by cgiles:
Noble sentiments, Tony. Why didn't you post it back here....


Chas ... My comment was not meant for any ONE person, but to ALL who might get into areas we do not want this board going (AGAIN !!!) ...
t.
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#223946 - 01/09/08 01:41 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
The old PSR740 had a neat feature, a button that converted ALL styles to "swing" versions. In effect it doubled the available styles. Not all worked out but most did. In other words a slow 4/4 could become a slow 2/4 shuffle with one press of the button.
DonM
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#223947 - 01/09/08 02:12 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by tony mads usa:
Chas ... My comment was not meant for any ONE person.......



Sorry Tony. I must have been confused by the fact that I was the only one you quoted. I guess paranoia must be another quality of us "gangbangers". Oh, and pardon me if I get offended at racial inuendo, although certainly no supprise, given the source.

chas

Oh, I think lightweight (maybe aluminum) flush-mounted adjustable legs built into the bottom of the keyboard would be new, novel, and convenient. Perhaps a small, removable, second tier that could be mounted on top of the keyboard or, better yet, built into the top of the keyboard case, flush-mounted and folding like the bottom legs. What do you think? BTW, if any manufacturer adopts this, remember, you saw it here first.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#223948 - 01/09/08 02:58 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
I also think purpose/model specific telescopic legs would be a great addition. I cannot imagine it would be all that expensive to implement and would probably only add about $100 to the purchase price. (Although some manufacturers might claim its the best thing since sliced bread and charge accordingly!!)
After all you got legs with the rhodes and cp70's amongst others.

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#223949 - 01/09/08 03:09 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
When I said flush-mounted, I forgot to say FOLDING, except flush (recessed into the bottom of the keyboard case). Wasn't sure if I made that clear but that's important because it could then sit on a conventional stand or table.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#223950 - 01/09/08 03:25 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
mikeathome1 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1208
Loc: Syracuse NY
Quote:
Originally posted by cgiles:
When I said flush-mounted, I forgot to say FOLDING, except flush (recessed into the bottom of the keyboard case). Wasn't sure if I made that clear but that's important because it could then sit on a conventional stand or table.

chas

Like the old farfisa of the 60's. great idea
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#223951 - 01/09/08 03:40 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by mikeathome1:

Like the old farfisa of the 60's. great idea


Darn, so much for that patent. Thanks a lot, Mike .

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#223952 - 01/09/08 03:51 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Quote:
Originally posted by cgiles:

Sorry Tony. I must have been confused by the fact that I was the only one you quoted. I guess paranoia must be another quality of us "gangbangers". Oh, and pardon me if I get offended at racial inuendo, although certainly no supprise, given the source.

chas

Oh, I think lightweight (maybe aluminum) flush-mounted adjustable legs built into the bottom of the keyboard would be new, novel, and convenient. Perhaps a small, removable, second tier that could be mounted on top of the keyboard or, better yet, built into the top of the keyboard case, flush-mounted and folding like the bottom legs. What do you think? BTW, if any manufacturer adopts this, remember, you saw it here first.

chas



Chas I figured you would mistake my gang mentality statement judging by your gangbanger reply.....try a Thesaurus there are multiple meaning to certain words, btw it's :innuendo" with two "N's"

Secondly.....My old Farfisa Compact Duo had fold out legs that were very steady .....be nice to see that again on these light weight KBs for sure...
http://www.combo-organ.com/Farfisa/Compact/index.htm

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#223953 - 01/09/08 04:04 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
mikeathome1 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 1208
Loc: Syracuse NY
Quote:
Originally posted by cgiles:
Darn, so much for that patent. Thanks a lot, Mike .

chas



But you're right with todays lighter and stronger materials an idea whose time has come, again!
I mean what did those old farfisa's weigh?

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 01-09-2008).]
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#223954 - 01/09/08 04:53 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:

Chas I figured you would mistake my gang mentality statement judging by your gangbanger reply.....try a Thesaurus there are multiple meaning to certain words, btw it's :innuendo" with two "N's"



Donny, trust me; no one mistakes anything you say. You're way to transparent for that. BTW, thanks for correcting my spelling. But why is "N's" capitalized? Could that be another iNNuendo, pray tell? May I also make the following grammatical suggestions in your statement above.

1. Double quotes around "gang mentality" and "gangbanger" in that usage.

2. Period (.) or semi-colon ( after Thesaurus. Capital "T" for "there" if you choose to use the period.

3. Add "s" to "meaning" (multiple implies more than one, remember?).

4. You could try a beginning quote (") instead of a colon ( in front of "innuendo", you know, with the two "N's".

You may want to try out that ol' Thesaurus yourself once in awhile. Just a thought.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#223955 - 01/09/08 05:49 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Oh Chas I love when your humorous it makes the SZ so much fun to peruse!!! Now can we get back on topic?



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-09-2008).]

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#223956 - 01/09/08 05:52 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Quote:
Originally posted by mikeathome1:
[B] But you're right with todays lighter and stronger materials an idea whose time has come, again!
I mean what did those old farfisa's weigh?

B]



Oh Man they weighed a ton.....but oh man they could do a mean Light My Fire...but then again back then Mike everything weighed a ton...I used it with a 147 Leslie that I had to cut in half horizontally to make it fit in my little car.....but the folding legs was very kool concept!

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#223957 - 01/09/08 07:27 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Yes... let's just keep this one ON TOPIC if possible.

I have always liked the 'swing' knobs from old drum machines. The trick is for the style to ONLY use simple 8th or 16th beats and fills. Anything more complicated (ghost notes, triplet figures, etc.) and it goes to hell in a handbasket real fast.

Perhaps some sort of 'simple style' flag could be put into the style's metadata so that ONLY these styles respond to the swing knob (and I liked it when the swing could be easily varied, rather than off or on) and more complex styles remain the way they are...?
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#223958 - 01/09/08 07:44 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
OK... here's another one...

Why not have a 'clone' MIDI setting, especially for Yamaha PSR range and others that have very light, 61 note keyboards. You plug ANY MIDI keyboard into it, send to it on ONE MIDI channel, and it reads the external controller as if it was still reading it's own, actual keyboard. Splits, Layers, Chord recognition, controllers (pitchbend, mod and sustain and expression, at the least), ...everything.

That way you could buy a nice 76 or 88, set it to send on just one channel (nice and simple!), and set the PSR on it SO close (you don't need to access the 76's display or knobs) that it is still relatively easy to get to the PSR's variation buttons, etc..

Even better would be that once 'clone mode' was engaged, it might free up the PSR's keyboard to be assigned to a sound of your choice, maybe for the organ sounds.

Kurzweil K2500 has this very feature... no matter HOW complicated a split and layer scheme you use, if you connect another MIDI keyboard to it and activate the mirror function, it re-routes the one MIDI channel coming in to whatever sounds the real keyboard would play.

This might be a great boon to those who like Yamaha arrangers, but can't stand the action...
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#223959 - 01/10/08 04:25 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Diki, I don't think I understand your 'clone midi' suggestion. How would this differ from a flexible 76/88 controller and a module such as the Midjay or similar. Wouldn't it be better just to have more manufaturers produce modules to be used with great controllers (ie. lightweight, good keyfeel, ergonomic controls, etc.). Since it couldn't be this simple, I'm sure I'm missing something important here.

Along those lines, how about a nice purpose-built controller, specifically built to control 'arranger-type' functions across most manufaturer's lines. Maybe some of the newest ones already do, I dunno'.

chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#223960 - 01/10/08 05:23 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
kbrkr Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/02
Posts: 2866
Loc: Tampa, FL
I would like to see all arranger keyboards with at least 8 sliders dedicated to STYLE PARTS. Along with the style part sliders, there would be a 3-4 mode toggle button with the following modes:

Mode 1: Style Composition
Similar to the Korg Karma functions, this function would allow the sliders to manipulate the groove, timing, measures, speed, bounce of all the style parts like drums (bass/snare/cymbals separately), bass, rhythm, etc.

So for example take a rock 4/4 beat and play around with the slider 1 for drums would change the position of the kick from 2 and 4 to maybe 1 and 3. Or it can even throw in double beats or triplets every so often to make the beat more interesting.

Or maybe change the base 4/4 rhythm to 7/8 or 3/4 or 12/8. Maybe do the same with the snare or hi-hat by doing beat displacement. While in this mode, you can scroll through the drum kits to select new drum patches.

I would also like to see larger measures for styles; say 16-24 bar styles. This would allow for greater variations in the base style.

Naturally, once you are satisfied with your changes, you can save them to a totally new style!!

Mode 2: Style Parts Volume. Would allow the each style part volumes to be controlled real-time.

Mode 3: Draw bars. Allows organ patch footage to be manipulated real-time.

Mode 4: Equalizer. in this mode, the sliders would change the display to a parametric equalizer which would adjust the current style or maybe the entire keyboard or just the vocal harmonizer.

That's just a start, but I think you have the idea.

------------------
Al Giordano http://www.arrangerworld.com


Tyros 2, Yamaha P-250, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland SPD-S.


[This message has been edited by kbrkr (edited 01-10-2008).]

[This message has been edited by kbrkr (edited 01-10-2008).]
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Pa4x - LD Systems Maui 28 - Mackie Thumps

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#223961 - 01/10/08 05:44 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Great to see new ideas, but please remember that arranger manufactures make their products specifically for the Home Player, and having too many sophisticated features would put these buyers off, (And the manufactures would loose considerable sales) however if you can make a point of how the feature will make it a Must Have/Buy for the Home User, then the manufactures will definitely sit up and take notice, otherwise I am afraid the suggestions will fall on deaf ears.

Bill
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Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#223962 - 01/10/08 07:28 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
Quote:
Originally posted by abacus:
.... but please remember that arranger manufactures make their products specifically for the Home Player, .....
Bill


Therein lies the problem ... how do we get them to hear that sooooo many of these boards are used by working musicians !?!?!?

t.
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t. cool

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#223963 - 01/10/08 10:39 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by tony mads usa:
Therein lies the problem ... how do we get them to hear that sooooo many of these boards are used by working musicians !?!?!?

t.



Tony, the reality is......probably less than 2% of working musicians.

chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#223964 - 01/10/08 11:36 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Quote:
Originally posted by cgiles:
Tony, the reality is......probably less than 2% of working musicians.

chas



And that is a good thing

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#223965 - 01/10/08 01:14 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
I just don't get it... Here you all are, bemoaning these new ideas as being for the pro user, NOT the home user, and by and large, I see most of them be about MUSIC, not money. Swing knobs, 1/2 time buttons, more flexible slider usage, muting options... Just exactly WHAT makes these 'pro' features?

You'll be telling us that Break/Mute buttons are 'pro' features next. PLEASE...

From what I have heard posted on this forum there are quite a few 'home' players that can run circles around some of our 'working' members here. Surely some of these features would be happily used by 'home' users (and some of them obviously unappreciated or misunderstood by so-called 'pros' who should realize how MUSICAL they are!) who right now seem to comprehend MIDI to Style features and Multi-Pads, definitely some of the more complicated features already present in current, so-called 'home' arrangers.

What a put-down! I guess Donny and abacus (who should know better, seeing as he has the most technologically advanced 'home' organ on the planet!) seem to feel that anything more advanced than a Tap Tempo button is wasted on those poor home doofuses who don't know nuthin'! RUBBISH...! Plain and simple.

You take a look at the OS for the PSR3000, there are probably large sections of the OS that even Donny (the consummate pro ) probably never used. Now, does that make him a home doofus, or does that make the PSR a 'pro' instrument? You tell me!

The only real 'pro' feature I see on many of these arrangers is the mp3 playback feature. I imagine that most home users that buy an arranger want to enjoy the hobby of actually PLAYING the arranger, and primarily only pros want to laboriously make a whole bunch of mp3's so they can mime over the top. You don't impress your relatives much by miming, just club and restaurant owners! At home, these arrangers are toys to PLAY with, not painstakingly prepare mp3 backing tracks so you can pretend to play with them (they've got Guitar Hero 3 for that!).

So, let's stop short-changing the 'home' user, shall we? If indeed only 2% of you are pros, every single feature on most arrangers was developed specifically for 'home' users, it stands to reason. You 'pros' should start thanking them immediately. All the wonderful features of the PA800, G70, and T2 were apparently developed specifically for THEM...! They apparently have some very advanced skills to understand this stuff!

OK, Donny, I realize that none of these new ideas might make you any more money than before. Truth is, probably getting a PA800 hasn't done that either. You may have to resort to getting a better 'chicken hat' for THAT to happen...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-10-2008).]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#223966 - 01/10/08 02:02 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Diki, when I guesstimated 2%, I should have said of the AMERICAN MARKET. I think the market share between 'home users' and 'working musicians' ('Pro' has a different meaning for me as I don't consider every working musician a pro) is very different in European, Asian, and Mid-Eastern markets. I believe this is important and partly explains why these markets seem to affect or influence design more than American users. I would love to know what percentage of the Arranger market we (Americans) make up. I'm guessing less than 20%, given the seeming popularity of these type instruments in Europe and Asia.

So maybe instead of looking at the division between 'home user' and 'pro', we should be looking at 'America' and 'OTHER' when trying to determine who influences Arranger keyboard design and features. Just a thought.

chas

PS: We (American musicians) DO buy a lot of synths/workstations and they DO listen to us a little more in those areas. Something to think about.
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#223967 - 01/10/08 02:33 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
At a guess I would suggest the percentage in Australia is less than 1% of working muso's (that use arranger functions in performances).
Pub crowds out here tend to want their songs pretty much the same as the original which is why a lot use midi files instead of their own take on the song using the arranger..
Believe me I would rather play my own version of the tunes I play rather than the same old smf,(which is the main reason I spend so much time re-working them constantly...it would be quicker and easier to use the arrange functions!!).
But venue owners listen to the $'s in the door and if a performer doesn't play it the way the patrons want they are not re-hired.

Sorry that was a bit OT...Back OT, I think any new features are equally adaptive to either the home-user or the pro-user, and anything that gives more variety or ease of operation would be welcomed by both.
It would be interesting to know how many "home-users" are actually retired pro-payers?
D

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 01-10-2008).]

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#223968 - 01/10/08 02:36 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
So chas, does this mean that they don't have 'swing' or half-time musics in Europe or Asia (remember, these Euro-centric arrangers USED to have 'swing %' features in the past)?

Or are you trying to say that we should just start using the word 'pro' for someone that CAN play (well!), and 'home player' for those that don't, so well? Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it for me.

'Pro' means what we all know it means. You get paid for your performances, and make the majority of your income from playing music. 'Semi-pro', well, you get the picture! You want a different word, less ambiguous? Try 'skilled' and 'unskilled'. Probably more appropriate to what you are trying to say, perhaps...

But half time buttons, swing knobs, etc. have got NOTHING to do with being pro or not. They are MUSICAL modifiers, that anyone, at ANY skill level, can use any time. But they are not on our current arrangers. Whereas mp3 players abound. I would just like to see a return to MUSICAL 'features' and innovation, and let's put the 'karaoke machine' aspects on the back burner. I don't want a DAW, I don't want a karaoke machine, I don't want a multimedia center....

I WANT AN ARRANGER...!

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-10-2008).]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#223969 - 01/10/08 03:15 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
(I) would just like to see a return to MUSICAL 'features' and innovation, and let's put the 'karaoke machine' aspects on the back burner. (I) don't want a DAW, (I) don't want a karaoke machine, (I) don't want a multimedia center....

(I) WANT AN ARRANGER...!

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-10-2008).]


This post was also edited by chas (parenthesis).

Here's the thing, Diki. ARRANGER means different things to different people. Although I agree with you about the emphasis on 'karaoke-type' features, I realize that that's just me and if other people find it useful, then why not? Doesn't hurt anything except perhaps my status amoung other non-arranger musicians (and that's not a problem as long as they know you can play if you have to ).

As far as your re-interpreting my post, I thought it was clear enough, as is. No, I don't think every guy out there on the corner with a tin cup and a guitar (with case as tip box.....talk about optimism) is a 'pro'. 'Pro' to me implies a certain skill level or at least the expectation of said skill level. Another quality of a 'pro' is realizing that opinions other than your own may also be valid (for somebody).

Hey, how's the weather down there. My buddy has a vacation home there (in Destin) and we were thinking of flying down in his Bonanza.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#223970 - 01/10/08 03:28 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
My "home user" clients aren't interested in MP3 players on their instruments.

Not ONE of them even asked about it...not ONE!

The same goes for playing over SMF...it's a topic that seldom, if ever, comes up.

In my experience, the people most interested in these karaoke features are the "pros".

My "home user" clients want to actually "play" their instruments...either alone or with some friends.

Strange, eh?
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#223971 - 01/10/08 03:39 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Just not quite sure from your posts where you stand, chas. I don't care much for the semantics of pro vs. home user... I think that the 'skilled' player can probably use many of these ideas, and the 'unskilled' will probably ignore them (like they do 90% of what's in current arrangers).

But I don't think their usefulness or not has anything to do with whether one is a 'pro' (gigging regularly) or a 'home' player. It is more about whether you push yourself to improve your playing, and understanding of how the arranger can help you achieve that musical goal.

I think this thread got off track somehow with the suggestion that these ideas (what the thread was SUPPOSED to be about) were unlikely to be implemented because a) they are somehow 'pro' features (and I STILL don't understand that logic), and b) the manufacturers (at least according to Donny) are bloodsucking leeches that somehow haven't got our desires as ANY kind of priority, despite magically coming out with some amazingly useful stuff just recently. And I disagree with BOTH those viewpoints.

Admittedly, with Roland in particular, I often get the '2 steps forward, 1 step back' impression, vis a vis the ease of operation and musical focus, so I just wanted to start a thread where we could discuss improvements of a musical nature (or not, I just wanted NEW ideas!) that haven't yet appeared (or long since disappeared) in our current arrangers. No big wup...

But if the opinion is that features that favor the 'skilled' player are not likely because the arranger is somehow designed for the 'unskilled' or 'home' player (other member words, not mine!), I would simply point to just how many already VERY complex features they already have, and say 'balderdash!'.

BTW, chas, 70ºF today, a cooling trend, but still warm by the weekend. If you come down, email me (my profile is on view) and I would be honored to meet you and show you around. Although it's out of season, there are still a few good players gigging that might be worth seeing (but little good jazz, sadly). Don't worry about my forum attitude, I don't REALLY bite...

PS Ian.... I completely agree. MP3 players are the ONLY 'pro' feature on arrangers.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-10-2008).]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#223972 - 01/10/08 04:46 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Diki, that's very kind of you and frankly, I expected nothing less. Unfortunately, it's probably not going to happen; mainly because I don't trust this guy's piloting skills. I think he really only invited me along as insurance because he knows I'm a high hour instrument pilot. Truth is, I'm neither current nor familiar with his Bonanza. On the flip side, if you're ever in the Atlanta area, I INSIST that you stop by and check out some of my gar-barrrge first hand.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#223973 - 01/10/08 07:59 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Thanks, chas... If I make it to the ATL, I will let you know for sure! Bound to be a ton of good music (of ALL kinds, not just jazz!) up there. But 'round here, if I get out of town for a road trip, I primarily head to New Orleans, home of some of my favorite musics (I love trad jazz, zydeco, cajun country and a good second line!) and foods!

But if you ever find yourself coming my way, drop me a line, and I'll do the same if I head north...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#223974 - 01/11/08 12:53 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
Spalding 4 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/07/07
Posts: 96
Loc: UK
Heres an idea.

A truly intelligent arranger. One that remembers the way you play songs in your song book and remembers your chord progressions so that it can anticipate your changes in terms of varying the drum pattens, bass lines, guitar riffs. I am not talking about a keyboard that forces you to play certain chords but one that anticipates for example 2-5-1 progressions and makes subtle but tasteful variable accompaniments.

This could be done in many ways.

For example the programmers could develope 8 or 9 different subtle bass lines for the end of say 4 or 8 bars of a pattern. they could be triggered by the loudness in which you play or the type of could you play or simply because of the number of times you have played a the same or similar sequence of chords. You could do the same with drum patterns. This would give the instrument a much more live feel.

I know tchnichs had a similar function and every now and again i would get a lovely surprise when playing but what i am talking about would be much more sophisticated and in depth programming.

It would

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#223975 - 01/11/08 04:03 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
One thing I think we need to realize is that although we would like features that would be “musical”, that is not what would sell keyboards. Manufacturers are looking for features that would WOW keyboard lovers and would be easy to market and demonstrate and would cause keyboard lovers to buy.

Today, what some persons don’t seem to get is that the reality is integration is the name of the game with electronic products. If you look at many electronic products, you would see that they are being built to where a user can use it for multiple purposes, transfer and create data quickly and easily and in different ways. That is why the Lionstract, Korg Ketron and possibly Roland are integrating music and recording features on their keyboards.

There are lots of music lovers who don’t play for a living who don’t want to use there computer for doing a simple recording. They probably don’t have time nor the technical background to set-up or use a DAW. That is why keyboard manufacturers are including multi tract audio recorders, MP3 players audio loops and so on. They are making keyboards so that users do not have to go different places just to have some fun playing and recording to impress their friends.


If the feature is not easily marketable, then manufacturers may not want to spend RandD on it if it would not bring them extra revenue.
How many of us have “discovered” a feature on our keyboard after months of having the board? The feature was good but it was not marketed because it was not something that would have help sell the keyboard to lots of persons.
BTW, I find it strange that some persons now want to say that “arranger” players are competent users of keyboards when before they would always put “arranger” players down and insult their intelligence by saying having creative features on an “arranger” like style creation and sampling would be too much for them.
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TTG

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#223976 - 01/12/08 10:12 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
Jørgen Sørensen Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/99
Posts: 361
Loc: Denmark
Hi

Thanks Diki for starting this thread.

I wonder if we could present and discuss ideas as a brainstorm, i.e. without critizing and without arguing that
- I don't like the idea
- the manufacturers don't like the idea
- the pro's / home user don't like the idea
- it is to expensive
etc.
--- NO OFFENSE MEANT ---

Maybe some of the ideas could be implemented through software, i.e. style modifications, registration settings, OTS etc.

As many of you probably know I have developed a number of software programs for Yamaha keyboards. Maybe one or more of these could be modified to fullfil one of your ideas. Or maybe your idea would require a completely new software program.

What do you think?

Best wishes
Jørgen

------------------
The Unofficial YAMAHA Keyboard Resource Site

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#223977 - 01/12/08 12:55 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Yes, I just find it sad that rather than exercise our brains a little, and try to come up with some suggestions that we as PLAYERS may realize arrangers need (perhaps better than the designers, who may not be out there in the trenches as much as us), many of us us would rather spend all their energy trying to explain why none of this could EVER possibly happen...

Despite every year or so, some manufacturer coming out with something new that we hadn't thought about! I am eternally grateful for the fact that the industry designers give these nabobs of negativism the attention they truly deserve! As, to be honest, so should we...

If your primary response to this thread has been to pooh-pooh the possibility of any of it occurring, what does this say about your imagination, your creativity, your ability to dream (all supposedly the strengths of ARTISTS)...? Are you all really beat down THAT bad?

Every new feature that appears is proof that positive change is not only possible, but to be expected! It is in the interest of the manufacturers themselves to innovate. Only the poor, spiritless drones here seem to be incapable of seeing a rosier future. Perhaps medication is the answer, perhaps just WAKING UP and looking around at all the great arrangers that have appeared in the last two or three years (and all the ones prior to that), and realizing that change is happening, and not just a dream...

And, if it IS happening, where is the harm in speculating, and perhaps aiding in it's direction..? For those of you that feel powerless, why not just enjoy the flights of fancy of those less broken than yourselves, rather than patiently try to explain to us poor idiots how the progress that you see going on every day isn't actually happening?!

Or has old age finally defeated you?

The hell with it... I'm going down swinging (with my double-time button)!!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#223978 - 01/12/08 01:08 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Jørgen, thanks for popping in on this one. Your programs for Yamaha's truly help to extend the scope of those arrangers.

The Session Manager software that was written by a Roland-arranger.com member (rshotbolt) completely revolutionizes Roland's G70/E80, and adds capabilities that the instrument can't do by itself. Add on capabilities like this go a long way to extend the arrangers, but primarily, these are offline processes... I know how to double-time or half-time a style using the Style composer, but it would be a LOT more convenient if the button to do this was added by the manufacturer..!

Better lookup tables for different instruments, and things like this can ONLY be applied by the manufacturer, sadly.

But perhaps one day, a manufacturer might open their SDK, and allow users like yourself, with a technical bent, to actually mess with the OS itself, rather than try to patch the shortcomings with offline processes...

One can only hope...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#223979 - 01/12/08 02:40 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:

But perhaps one day, a manufacturer might open their SDK, and allow users like yourself, with a technical bent, to actually mess with the OS itself, rather than try to patch the shortcomings with offline processes...
[/B]

I agree. They could even do it under a licencing system whereby every amended O/S that say, Jorgen sells, they (K/R/Y et al) get a percentage.
I do think the maufacturers listen to incoming suggestions, whether they act (cannot or won't) is another question.
It's the squeakiest wheel that gets oiled!!

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#223980 - 01/12/08 10:11 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Jørgen Sørensen Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/99
Posts: 361
Loc: Denmark
Hi

@ miden

Just to correct you: I dont SELL software. I give it away for free.

@ Diki

How do we get the keyboard OS open? This would really give us something to work with!

Jørgen

------------------
The Unofficial YAMAHA Keyboard Resource Site

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#223981 - 01/12/08 10:47 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Jorgen,
I already knew that..I was suggesting that if you developed some in depth software under licence from the manufacturers that significantly alters how the operating system works, then perhaps some reward for effort would be justified. I was not meaning to insult you. I for one would be more than happy to pay for system upgrades above and beyond what the manufacturers provide.
Dennis

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#223982 - 01/12/08 11:19 PM Re: New ideas for 2008
Jørgen Sørensen Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/99
Posts: 361
Loc: Denmark
Hi Dennis

I was not insulted. Not at all! My comment was just meant as a small correction.

But if the OS was open - and it was possible to build some exiting new features into it - a license fee would be great ;-)

Kind Regards
Jørgen

------------------
The Unofficial YAMAHA Keyboard Resource Site

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#223983 - 01/13/08 02:27 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
Well, we will also release the Qranger under stand alone Qranger Composer Linux application: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/information_pages.php?info_id=34

The Qranger Composer will be included in the 64 Studio Linux distribution, where you are able to Free download and install in to a standard PC X86.
In the 64studio distrubution is also included the Linuxampler and we will distribuite some Qranger template for automatic connection on Linuxsampler and Vst.

so.. if there someone is able to develope code under QT4, we give also the all souce code for manage and Upgrade of the all feature and ideas that you like and then redistribuite it again back ( GPL license)

My personal Idea and I will continue only under this way, is to use one Timeline Audio-Midi SEQ with HD streaming.
Only midi pattens arranger have to much limitation and are not able to manage Audio tracks, the problem you know, are the Offset start point when you change the chords.
Sampler is not able too, because is not possible to chenge the offset start point in realtime.

Maybe your all new arranger ideas can be featured under the Qranger Open souce.
Enjoy what you play.
cheers

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#223984 - 01/13/08 08:21 AM Re: New ideas for 2008
keysvocalssax Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 845
Loc: Miami FL nov-may/Lakeville CT ...
DIKI I JUST SAW THIS POST..BEEN BUSY RECORDING.
BEST IDEA U EVER HAD!!!!HALF-TIME/DOUBLE-TIME
BUTTON. I LOVE IT (I WAS THINKING JUST YESTERDAY ABOUT A DOUBLE-TIME FEATURE BUT NEVER
OCCURRED TO ME ABOUT HALF-TIME)CONGRATS!!!!!

------------------
Miami Mo
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Miami Mo

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