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#223937 - 01/08/08 06:01 PM
Re: New ideas for 2008
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
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Donny, just because you CAN'T think of anything you'd like (but will wait until it comes out and then you MUST have it ) doesn't mean anyone else should give up... Actually, there were a couple of positive replies to the idea, from some of our more competent members. And, let's face it, if the PA800 had a half-time button, and nobody else had it, you would be gushing about how useful it is (and how many gigs a day you do) all over this forum. I'm sorry it isn't another mp3 player idea, it must be annoying to see suggestions about MUSICAL features and not just pre-canned backing tracks, but if you use an arranger to PLAY, rather than just as an overblown iPod (as I'm sure you do ), any idea that hasn't yet been tried on an arranger that gives a MUSICAL improvement is fine by me. MAYBE someone at Y/K/R who hasn't thought of this idea will go 'duh! why haven't we got this yet?' and start to work on it. Maybe not. But they sure aren't thinking about YOUR needs. Because, apparently, you have none (until something you haven't thought about comes out, and THEN you'll be wanting it!). Me, I like to dream, and talk it over with fellow users. But if you don't, why not just press the 'Back' button instead of criticizing those of us willing to discuss possible improvements?
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#223947 - 01/09/08 02:12 PM
Re: New ideas for 2008
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
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Originally posted by tony mads usa: Chas ... My comment was not meant for any ONE person.......
Sorry Tony. I must have been confused by the fact that I was the only one you quoted. I guess paranoia must be another quality of us "gangbangers". Oh, and pardon me if I get offended at racial inuendo, although certainly no supprise, given the source. chas Oh, I think lightweight (maybe aluminum) flush-mounted adjustable legs built into the bottom of the keyboard would be new, novel, and convenient. Perhaps a small, removable, second tier that could be mounted on top of the keyboard or, better yet, built into the top of the keyboard case, flush-mounted and folding like the bottom legs. What do you think? BTW, if any manufacturer adopts this, remember, you saw it here first. chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
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#223952 - 01/09/08 03:51 PM
Re: New ideas for 2008
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
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Originally posted by cgiles: Sorry Tony. I must have been confused by the fact that I was the only one you quoted. I guess paranoia must be another quality of us "gangbangers". Oh, and pardon me if I get offended at racial inuendo, although certainly no supprise, given the source.
chas
Oh, I think lightweight (maybe aluminum) flush-mounted adjustable legs built into the bottom of the keyboard would be new, novel, and convenient. Perhaps a small, removable, second tier that could be mounted on top of the keyboard or, better yet, built into the top of the keyboard case, flush-mounted and folding like the bottom legs. What do you think? BTW, if any manufacturer adopts this, remember, you saw it here first.
chas Chas I figured you would mistake my gang mentality statement judging by your gangbanger reply.....try a Thesaurus there are multiple meaning to certain words, btw it's :innuendo" with two "N's" Secondly.....My old Farfisa Compact Duo had fold out legs that were very steady .....be nice to see that again on these light weight KBs for sure... http://www.combo-organ.com/Farfisa/Compact/index.htm
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#223958 - 01/09/08 07:44 PM
Re: New ideas for 2008
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
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OK... here's another one...
Why not have a 'clone' MIDI setting, especially for Yamaha PSR range and others that have very light, 61 note keyboards. You plug ANY MIDI keyboard into it, send to it on ONE MIDI channel, and it reads the external controller as if it was still reading it's own, actual keyboard. Splits, Layers, Chord recognition, controllers (pitchbend, mod and sustain and expression, at the least), ...everything.
That way you could buy a nice 76 or 88, set it to send on just one channel (nice and simple!), and set the PSR on it SO close (you don't need to access the 76's display or knobs) that it is still relatively easy to get to the PSR's variation buttons, etc..
Even better would be that once 'clone mode' was engaged, it might free up the PSR's keyboard to be assigned to a sound of your choice, maybe for the organ sounds.
Kurzweil K2500 has this very feature... no matter HOW complicated a split and layer scheme you use, if you connect another MIDI keyboard to it and activate the mirror function, it re-routes the one MIDI channel coming in to whatever sounds the real keyboard would play.
This might be a great boon to those who like Yamaha arrangers, but can't stand the action...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#223960 - 01/10/08 05:23 AM
Re: New ideas for 2008
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Senior Member
Registered: 11/19/02
Posts: 2866
Loc: Tampa, FL
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I would like to see all arranger keyboards with at least 8 sliders dedicated to STYLE PARTS. Along with the style part sliders, there would be a 3-4 mode toggle button with the following modes: Mode 1: Style Composition Similar to the Korg Karma functions, this function would allow the sliders to manipulate the groove, timing, measures, speed, bounce of all the style parts like drums (bass/snare/cymbals separately), bass, rhythm, etc. So for example take a rock 4/4 beat and play around with the slider 1 for drums would change the position of the kick from 2 and 4 to maybe 1 and 3. Or it can even throw in double beats or triplets every so often to make the beat more interesting. Or maybe change the base 4/4 rhythm to 7/8 or 3/4 or 12/8. Maybe do the same with the snare or hi-hat by doing beat displacement. While in this mode, you can scroll through the drum kits to select new drum patches. I would also like to see larger measures for styles; say 16-24 bar styles. This would allow for greater variations in the base style. Naturally, once you are satisfied with your changes, you can save them to a totally new style!! Mode 2: Style Parts Volume. Would allow the each style part volumes to be controlled real-time. Mode 3: Draw bars. Allows organ patch footage to be manipulated real-time. Mode 4: Equalizer. in this mode, the sliders would change the display to a parametric equalizer which would adjust the current style or maybe the entire keyboard or just the vocal harmonizer. That's just a start, but I think you have the idea. ------------------ Al Giordano http://www.arrangerworld.com Tyros 2, Yamaha P-250, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland SPD-S. [This message has been edited by kbrkr (edited 01-10-2008).] [This message has been edited by kbrkr (edited 01-10-2008).]
_________________________
Al
Pa4x - LD Systems Maui 28 - Mackie Thumps
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#223961 - 01/10/08 05:44 AM
Re: New ideas for 2008
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: English Riviera, UK
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Great to see new ideas, but please remember that arranger manufactures make their products specifically for the Home Player, and having too many sophisticated features would put these buyers off, (And the manufactures would loose considerable sales) however if you can make a point of how the feature will make it a Must Have/Buy for the Home User, then the manufactures will definitely sit up and take notice, otherwise I am afraid the suggestions will fall on deaf ears.
Bill
_________________________
English Riviera: Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).
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#223965 - 01/10/08 01:14 PM
Re: New ideas for 2008
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
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I just don't get it... Here you all are, bemoaning these new ideas as being for the pro user, NOT the home user, and by and large, I see most of them be about MUSIC, not money. Swing knobs, 1/2 time buttons, more flexible slider usage, muting options... Just exactly WHAT makes these 'pro' features? You'll be telling us that Break/Mute buttons are 'pro' features next. PLEASE... From what I have heard posted on this forum there are quite a few 'home' players that can run circles around some of our 'working' members here. Surely some of these features would be happily used by 'home' users (and some of them obviously unappreciated or misunderstood by so-called 'pros' who should realize how MUSICAL they are!) who right now seem to comprehend MIDI to Style features and Multi-Pads, definitely some of the more complicated features already present in current, so-called 'home' arrangers. What a put-down! I guess Donny and abacus (who should know better, seeing as he has the most technologically advanced 'home' organ on the planet!) seem to feel that anything more advanced than a Tap Tempo button is wasted on those poor home doofuses who don't know nuthin'! RUBBISH...! Plain and simple. You take a look at the OS for the PSR3000, there are probably large sections of the OS that even Donny (the consummate pro ) probably never used. Now, does that make him a home doofus, or does that make the PSR a 'pro' instrument? You tell me! The only real 'pro' feature I see on many of these arrangers is the mp3 playback feature. I imagine that most home users that buy an arranger want to enjoy the hobby of actually PLAYING the arranger, and primarily only pros want to laboriously make a whole bunch of mp3's so they can mime over the top. You don't impress your relatives much by miming, just club and restaurant owners! At home, these arrangers are toys to PLAY with, not painstakingly prepare mp3 backing tracks so you can pretend to play with them (they've got Guitar Hero 3 for that!). So, let's stop short-changing the 'home' user, shall we? If indeed only 2% of you are pros, every single feature on most arrangers was developed specifically for 'home' users, it stands to reason. You 'pros' should start thanking them immediately. All the wonderful features of the PA800, G70, and T2 were apparently developed specifically for THEM...! They apparently have some very advanced skills to understand this stuff! OK, Donny, I realize that none of these new ideas might make you any more money than before. Truth is, probably getting a PA800 hasn't done that either. You may have to resort to getting a better 'chicken hat' for THAT to happen... [This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-10-2008).]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#223968 - 01/10/08 02:36 PM
Re: New ideas for 2008
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
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So chas, does this mean that they don't have 'swing' or half-time musics in Europe or Asia (remember, these Euro-centric arrangers USED to have 'swing %' features in the past)?
Or are you trying to say that we should just start using the word 'pro' for someone that CAN play (well!), and 'home player' for those that don't, so well? Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it for me.
'Pro' means what we all know it means. You get paid for your performances, and make the majority of your income from playing music. 'Semi-pro', well, you get the picture! You want a different word, less ambiguous? Try 'skilled' and 'unskilled'. Probably more appropriate to what you are trying to say, perhaps...
But half time buttons, swing knobs, etc. have got NOTHING to do with being pro or not. They are MUSICAL modifiers, that anyone, at ANY skill level, can use any time. But they are not on our current arrangers. Whereas mp3 players abound. I would just like to see a return to MUSICAL 'features' and innovation, and let's put the 'karaoke machine' aspects on the back burner. I don't want a DAW, I don't want a karaoke machine, I don't want a multimedia center....
I WANT AN ARRANGER...!
[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-10-2008).]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#223969 - 01/10/08 03:15 PM
Re: New ideas for 2008
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
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Originally posted by Diki: (I) would just like to see a return to MUSICAL 'features' and innovation, and let's put the 'karaoke machine' aspects on the back burner. (I) don't want a DAW, (I) don't want a karaoke machine, (I) don't want a multimedia center....
(I) WANT AN ARRANGER...!
[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-10-2008).] This post was also edited by chas (parenthesis). Here's the thing, Diki. ARRANGER means different things to different people. Although I agree with you about the emphasis on 'karaoke-type' features, I realize that that's just me and if other people find it useful, then why not? Doesn't hurt anything except perhaps my status amoung other non-arranger musicians (and that's not a problem as long as they know you can play if you have to ). As far as your re-interpreting my post, I thought it was clear enough, as is. No, I don't think every guy out there on the corner with a tin cup and a guitar (with case as tip box.....talk about optimism) is a 'pro'. 'Pro' to me implies a certain skill level or at least the expectation of said skill level. Another quality of a 'pro' is realizing that opinions other than your own may also be valid (for somebody). Hey, how's the weather down there. My buddy has a vacation home there (in Destin) and we were thinking of flying down in his Bonanza. chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
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#223971 - 01/10/08 03:39 PM
Re: New ideas for 2008
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
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Just not quite sure from your posts where you stand, chas. I don't care much for the semantics of pro vs. home user... I think that the 'skilled' player can probably use many of these ideas, and the 'unskilled' will probably ignore them (like they do 90% of what's in current arrangers). But I don't think their usefulness or not has anything to do with whether one is a 'pro' (gigging regularly) or a 'home' player. It is more about whether you push yourself to improve your playing, and understanding of how the arranger can help you achieve that musical goal. I think this thread got off track somehow with the suggestion that these ideas (what the thread was SUPPOSED to be about) were unlikely to be implemented because a) they are somehow 'pro' features (and I STILL don't understand that logic), and b) the manufacturers (at least according to Donny) are bloodsucking leeches that somehow haven't got our desires as ANY kind of priority, despite magically coming out with some amazingly useful stuff just recently. And I disagree with BOTH those viewpoints. Admittedly, with Roland in particular, I often get the '2 steps forward, 1 step back' impression, vis a vis the ease of operation and musical focus, so I just wanted to start a thread where we could discuss improvements of a musical nature (or not, I just wanted NEW ideas!) that haven't yet appeared (or long since disappeared) in our current arrangers. No big wup... But if the opinion is that features that favor the 'skilled' player are not likely because the arranger is somehow designed for the 'unskilled' or 'home' player (other member words, not mine!), I would simply point to just how many already VERY complex features they already have, and say 'balderdash!'. BTW, chas, 70ºF today, a cooling trend, but still warm by the weekend. If you come down, email me (my profile is on view) and I would be honored to meet you and show you around. Although it's out of season, there are still a few good players gigging that might be worth seeing (but little good jazz, sadly). Don't worry about my forum attitude, I don't REALLY bite... PS Ian.... I completely agree. MP3 players are the ONLY 'pro' feature on arrangers. [This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-10-2008).]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#223973 - 01/10/08 07:59 PM
Re: New ideas for 2008
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
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Thanks, chas... If I make it to the ATL, I will let you know for sure! Bound to be a ton of good music (of ALL kinds, not just jazz!) up there. But 'round here, if I get out of town for a road trip, I primarily head to New Orleans, home of some of my favorite musics (I love trad jazz, zydeco, cajun country and a good second line!) and foods!
But if you ever find yourself coming my way, drop me a line, and I'll do the same if I head north...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#223976 - 01/12/08 10:12 AM
Re: New ideas for 2008
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Member
Registered: 10/24/99
Posts: 361
Loc: Denmark
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Hi Thanks Diki for starting this thread. I wonder if we could present and discuss ideas as a brainstorm, i.e. without critizing and without arguing that - I don't like the idea - the manufacturers don't like the idea - the pro's / home user don't like the idea - it is to expensive etc. --- NO OFFENSE MEANT --- Maybe some of the ideas could be implemented through software, i.e. style modifications, registration settings, OTS etc. As many of you probably know I have developed a number of software programs for Yamaha keyboards. Maybe one or more of these could be modified to fullfil one of your ideas. Or maybe your idea would require a completely new software program. What do you think? Best wishes Jørgen ------------------ The Unofficial YAMAHA Keyboard Resource Site
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#223977 - 01/12/08 12:55 PM
Re: New ideas for 2008
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
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Yes, I just find it sad that rather than exercise our brains a little, and try to come up with some suggestions that we as PLAYERS may realize arrangers need (perhaps better than the designers, who may not be out there in the trenches as much as us), many of us us would rather spend all their energy trying to explain why none of this could EVER possibly happen... Despite every year or so, some manufacturer coming out with something new that we hadn't thought about! I am eternally grateful for the fact that the industry designers give these nabobs of negativism the attention they truly deserve! As, to be honest, so should we... If your primary response to this thread has been to pooh-pooh the possibility of any of it occurring, what does this say about your imagination, your creativity, your ability to dream (all supposedly the strengths of ARTISTS)...? Are you all really beat down THAT bad? Every new feature that appears is proof that positive change is not only possible, but to be expected! It is in the interest of the manufacturers themselves to innovate. Only the poor, spiritless drones here seem to be incapable of seeing a rosier future. Perhaps medication is the answer, perhaps just WAKING UP and looking around at all the great arrangers that have appeared in the last two or three years (and all the ones prior to that), and realizing that change is happening, and not just a dream... And, if it IS happening, where is the harm in speculating, and perhaps aiding in it's direction..? For those of you that feel powerless, why not just enjoy the flights of fancy of those less broken than yourselves, rather than patiently try to explain to us poor idiots how the progress that you see going on every day isn't actually happening?! Or has old age finally defeated you? The hell with it... I'm going down swinging (with my double-time button)!!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#223978 - 01/12/08 01:08 PM
Re: New ideas for 2008
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
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Jørgen, thanks for popping in on this one. Your programs for Yamaha's truly help to extend the scope of those arrangers.
The Session Manager software that was written by a Roland-arranger.com member (rshotbolt) completely revolutionizes Roland's G70/E80, and adds capabilities that the instrument can't do by itself. Add on capabilities like this go a long way to extend the arrangers, but primarily, these are offline processes... I know how to double-time or half-time a style using the Style composer, but it would be a LOT more convenient if the button to do this was added by the manufacturer..!
Better lookup tables for different instruments, and things like this can ONLY be applied by the manufacturer, sadly.
But perhaps one day, a manufacturer might open their SDK, and allow users like yourself, with a technical bent, to actually mess with the OS itself, rather than try to patch the shortcomings with offline processes...
One can only hope...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#223983 - 01/13/08 02:27 AM
Re: New ideas for 2008
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Member
Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy
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Well, we will also release the Qranger under stand alone Qranger Composer Linux application: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/information_pages.php?info_id=34 The Qranger Composer will be included in the 64 Studio Linux distribution, where you are able to Free download and install in to a standard PC X86. In the 64studio distrubution is also included the Linuxampler and we will distribuite some Qranger template for automatic connection on Linuxsampler and Vst. so.. if there someone is able to develope code under QT4, we give also the all souce code for manage and Upgrade of the all feature and ideas that you like and then redistribuite it again back ( GPL license) My personal Idea and I will continue only under this way, is to use one Timeline Audio-Midi SEQ with HD streaming. Only midi pattens arranger have to much limitation and are not able to manage Audio tracks, the problem you know, are the Offset start point when you change the chords. Sampler is not able too, because is not possible to chenge the offset start point in realtime. Maybe your all new arranger ideas can be featured under the Qranger Open souce. Enjoy what you play. cheers
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