SCP,

To answer the questions you asked of me in the " Good Keyboard feel and action - What does it Cost ", thread, I started this one, since I'm straying away from the original topic.

The strengths of my system are geared more toward the studio for me. I can ( and do ) use parts of it live as well. I simply haven't thought in terms of needing the absolute highest quality sounds for live performance, mainly for two reasons..

A.. I'm not a real band and everyone can see that.

B. I'm there mainly to entertain, and part of that includes what I can do with my keyboard chops and my ( gulp...lol ) vocals.

It takes some work to put together the absolute best sounds into one module, like a Kontakt sampler, more work than I think I need to do. Instead, the tools are there for me to tap into at my leisure, more often in a studio setting. You could build one outstanding sample package in an app like Kontakt, or even into a huge soundfont. I've never tried.

The sounds of the SGM128 soundfont are more than adequate for use with One Man Band, and through my sound system I think it sounds as good as my PA80. I'm using mainly Yamaha styles with OMB, and they are not as "in your face" as some of the Korg styles. Sometimes, that's a good thing, More open space for me to play in.

My studio work consists mainly of synth and electronic work, and I think Frank Rosenthal may have more expertise for acoustic sounds than I will. What I do believe, and it's the whole point of going to software for me, is that no single package has it all, hardware or software.

The difference being that with software I can mix and match a whole lot more than with HW. You could use an all in one like Hyper Canvas or Luxonix Ravity, but I am not sure that it will sound better, or in Hyper canvas' case, even as good, than the average arranger. East West, USB Plugsound, Yellow tools, etc also make some very good sample sets, that based on what I've heard, probably rival any arranger's.

To answer your question.. here is some of what I do use .. if it helps. I measure most of it against my PA80 ( arranger ) and my Motif ES6l ( workstation ). Remembering that sounds are subjective....

Ac Guitars- Musiclabs Real Guitar. As close as I've heard to the real thing. Well ahead of the Motif, and light years ahead of the PA80.

Electrics- Sonic Implants Telecaster, PRS, Strat, Les Paul, and Rickenbacker 330/ When used in combo with Amplitube or NI Guitar Rig ( Amp modelers ), I favor the soundfonts over my hardware boards. I will say that the amp modelers can lend a very nice flavor to the ES' patches as well. PA80 lags way behind.

Drums.. Sonic Implants Blue Jay and session drums series. NS`drums soundfont. Also a very nice set in Edirol's super Quartet. All very good vs my hardware, but the Motif is very good on drums as well. The PA80 lags behind. I also have many individual samples, some of very good quality, that have come from different sources, including Sample Arena.

PLG150 acoustic modeling plug in`for the ES. This is software that "goes in your hardware" ( it's in the board now ). The best for modeling horns, saxes, violins, etc. Way beyond the standard Motif and PA80 patches, but probably still distinguishable from the real thing. I just heard Lin Plug's Sax Lab ( comp software ). It sounds just about as good.

Basses- The Motif is so good here for most things that I don't need any elaborate software. Way ahead of the PA80. I use a few of the Sample Arena basses too though.

Organs. The Motif Es is very good. So is the PA80. Native Instruments B4 software is.. even better... maybe way better.

Pianos- Edirol orchestral.. superb. Super Quartet is very good as well. There are even higher quality sample sets out there, but I'm not using a lot of ac piano, so I don't need them. I don't like the Pianos much on the PA80 at all, but they are pretty good on the Motif. Knagalis Eve ( software ) is very good, especially on electrics. The Mo ES is very good on electrics too.


The Motif has that "sweet flute" from the arranger series. It's nice. So is Musiclabs Smart flute. PA80 is ok here.

Strings - These are so hard to do, I rarely bother trying to emulate the real thing. It never sounds quite right. That said, I'd take Edirol Orchestral's over anything I've ever heard on any hardware.

OK.. now for where my system really earns its' keep... Synth sounds..
Here is the one area I think the I like the PA80 better than the Motif, minus the AN150 analog modeling plug in of course. That said, both are sample based instruments, and for me they lack the soul of a real or even virtual analog machine. The AN150 board is a very good analog emulator, but is limited to 5 notes of polyphony. It does sound a lot like a Prophet 5 .

I can't even say what my favs are in strict order, because it changes day to day, depending on my mood and what I want to play.

So, my favorites, in no particular order..

NI Pro 53 Prophet 5 emulator, and sounds pretty close

G Media Imposocar

Arturia CS80V.. They nailed it. The CS80 was always a favorite for me.

Korg Legacy Collection. I finally have my Poly six back, in a software reincarnation, but the real treat here is the korg Wavestaion Emulation. MS-20 is kinda cool too.

Arturia Moog Modular.. It's awesome enough that Bob Moog himself has endorsed it.

RGC Audio Pentagon. Great analog emulator.

Superwave Performer series. Fattest pads outside of hardware.

NI Absynth, Big Tick Rhino, Z3TA... these are for when you want to go way beyhond traditional analog emulations. There are some surreal sounds, and some fat ones too.

There are several more in the arsenal / Even some of the freeware ( Crystal, Synth 1 )gives me sounds that no arranger ( or my Motif for that matter ) will ever have.

Effects.. I have more than a few.. I'll save it for another time, except to say that they are on par with anything you'll ever find in any hardware.

Hosts- Sonar, FL Studio

Arranger type apps - One Man Band, Band in A Box, Jammer pro.


Whew.. I don't think I demonstrated a good picture of an all in one solution for live play for you, but this stuff all comes together superbly and comes to life in my studio, hosted in Sonar or FL studio. With some work, it can be intregrated into a live setup as well, but I'm not so sure I need to do this. I do take the laptop along for live play for some of the synth sounds that my hardware can't give me. I just did a show recently in which I used the B4 and did a solo "acoustic guitar piece" using Real Guitar. It went very well, and later I had a few questions asked as to how I was able to play such a realistic sounding guitar on keys.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 02-11-2005).]

Bluezplayer, very good description of this subject.

For those that may be interest in my system could do a search on this forum for flr2003 or flr2004. This saves re-posting this information.

I still maintain that my system sounds better than any hardware based system and is suitable for live performances. Yes, it is true that the control surface is not as good as hardware based systems - but it is good enough - you get used to it.

AJ, Frank,

Thanks for the detailed explanation of your setup. I'm almost hooked.

What controller do you fellas use?

Are you proponents of the Open Labs Necko?

When you compare costs between Hardware vs. SoftSynth model, which one is more cost effective?

Excellent subject!!

Regards,
Al

Al,

I would say that my system is also suitable for live performance, since I've used it quite recently. Right now I'm controlling with the Motif ES. I just like the way those keys feel, and I can control a dozen or so synth parameters with it, which is key when working with the virtual analogs.

I also had a Radium 61 controller, but I traded it away for a guitar amp and some work on my Les Paul. It worked well, but I like playing on the Motif Keybed better. I plan on going with two controllers. An 88 ( or 76 ) key with weighted action, and a smaller one typical of the older analog synths. The first controller for pianos and such, the second for realtime control of the virtual analogs. 61 keys is a tad`too big for me for that, because I want to use it on my desktop as well, so a 49 or even 37 will work fine. The Motif can still work for the rest.

I'd say my total software setup, laptop and all, cost more than one hardware board ( top end arranger or workstation ), but less than one of each put together.

Really, that's what this system is, a high end arranger and a high end workstation, but it's also a lot more than that, and to me well worth it. I agree with Frank. I'll never find any single hardware solution that is going to match what I have sonically. In fact, I could put together 3 or 4 ( or more ) hardware boards, and still fall way short, especially on analog sounds. So, I'll say that software is a lot more cost effective .. for me.

Open Labs Neko..hmmm I think their flagship model is over 5 grand. I like the concept well enough, but I'd spend a lot more on top of that, to macth what I have now. Most of the plug ins and sounds it comes with are freeware modules that can be downloaded from KVR Audio. The notable exception being the Lin Plug modules. I know because I've d'ld most of them at one time or another.

I am a little more intrigued by the Open Labs SE edition. At about $2295 USd, it might be a pretty good solution. I'd never try it sight unseen though. Gotta feel those keys and see if I like the total environment first.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 02-11-2005).]

Dear Bluezplayer;

Thank-you for taking the time for your response & explaination. It has proven to be very informative. I will be researching the various software packages that you mentioned.

I think if one starts with the Open Labs SE ( $2295) plus $1-1.5K worth of software [ total cost of $3300-3800 which happens to be the approx price of top model arrangers right now ] you could create a very high end arranger that could potentially rival Brand companies ( Korg, Yam, Ketron etc...) Further, it can always be expanded as technology changes & more realistic sounds are created.

What did you think of Domenik's response to our comments regarding the mediastation from the " Good Keyboard feel and action - What does it Cost ", thread????


PS. I suppose my reason for asking you about realistic sounding instruments & software/samples is not to fool the audience into thinking I am something that I am not , but in the pleasure of the sound that I produce. I want my trumpet solos to sound as close to a real trumpet as is possible. I don't want the trumpet to sound like I stepped on the cats tail. [ i.e. like the difference bewteen Coke & a generic product--yes it tastes like coke but its not authentic ] Also, I am an audiophile, so realistic production of the musical event is a Mantra. Further, I believe that live arranger players are looking for realistic sound production & styles. That is why companies create and improve apon their sound banks/styles. Yamaha produced there Mega sounds ( replica of a struming guitar) and Korg uses their RX technology ( realistic production of sounds), and Ketron put alot of effort into their solo instruments & styles.


Thanks
Regards;
SCP

I use the Roland A-37 as my contoller. It has a good key feel and allows me to save 128 total setups (voices & effects). With this I operate all the controls of forte Ensemble and the various samplers and associated effects.

When you use something like Kontakt and voices of the Bardstown Bosendorfer Piano, VRSound Sax, Scrabee Bass, Garritan Strings, VSL Orchestra Instruments quality it comes very close to sounding like the real thing. These virtual instruments are expensive but worth it. For live performances you may not need this high a quality of sound but for studio work you will quickly see (hear) the benefits!!!