Things come slowly to Alaska - and arrangers are no exception. I had purchased a GEM wk2 module from a midwest store before I knew of this forum - and people like George Kaye and Dan O. This is a special thanks to George who talked me through some of the issues on arrangers without being overly concerned about my buying there - and the same to some extent with Dan O. I certainly will buy from George in the future if the opportunity presents itself. This forum is quite interesting and I have read backwards a long ways. For myself, I just wanted something that I could use to fill up the sound when I play latin/swing/modern jazz with an upright bass player. My thought were to use the instrument to record arrangements at home for later use live - something I could go back and change here and there as desired. I wasn't particularly interested in triggering realtime accompaniment in live situations- though I can see where it would be nice. I was going to use my Roland FP3 as my live instrument - therefore I had an interest in just a module. But the wk2 isn't set up to perform like that - conveniently. Having owned the triton and karma from Korg - I'm not really excited about the PA80 sounds - though living in Alaska doesn't give me an opportunity to hear it. I like Roland - but haven't heard much raving about the VA-3 (don't need a vocal processor) - I've read a bunch of opinions about the Solton, Technics, Yamaha, Korg, Roland products and I do know that tastes are very subjective. I didn't mind the GEM sounds of the wk2 - but I find that most everything I have heard from internet downloads performed on arranger keyboards - leaves me feeling like its all a bit too canned and somewhat small on the depth of sound. Since the improvisations are such a critical part of my performances - I'd really like to get some input on how these arrangers are being or could be used so that they don't negatively impact the spontaneity of this sort of music. Are there particular instruments more suited to what I am doing. I am also very interested in the claims being hinted at by Chris in regards to the new GEM Genesys.

regards
Mike in Alaska

Hi Mike: If you (like me), are into playing Swing Jazz & Latin tunes on your arranger KB (and playing with a LIVE upright acoutic bass player), then I personally HIGHLY recommend the Technics KN6500 or older KN5000 (which I own).

I really believe that the Technics arrangers have both the best variety & quality of straight ahead/modern jazz swing & latin styles of all the arrangers available today, and that its' sound patches (especially the acoustic Steinway grand piano) are perfect for improvising (Realbook) jazz & Latin tunes.

The BIG advantage of Technics KN keyboards is that they recongize in full keyboard pianist mode (jazz chord recognition) a version of the well known jazz (Bill Evans style) A/B rootless chord voicings commonly used in jazz piano comping. This feature alone makes this keyboard idea for soloing (in the right hand) while you play the cool jazz style (rootless) comping voicings in your left hand, allowing your Bass Player to lay down the ROOT bass lines. I think because of this, the Technics arranger gives you the opportunity to play and SOUND in an authentic jazz combo style, like you would if you were an acoustic piano player performing with a LIVE jazz musicians. None of the other arranger keyboards support this type of chord recognition feature as well.

I occasionally use my Technics KN5000 arranger for intimate jazz duo lounge gigs, playing (comping & soloing) on the KN5000 (with drums & guitar, etc auto-accompaniment) and singing, along with a LIVE acoustic bass player (or horn/guitar player). For added spontaneity I trigger drum & accomp fills at the end of 4 or 8 bar phrases. Really makes the performance come alive! This setup is highly effective, sounds totally professional and musical, and makes finacial sense because you can take home more $ because you don't have to hire as many other musicians.

I hope you get the opportunity to checkout the Technics KN6500 or KN5000 up in your area of Alaska.
- Scott
http://scottyee.com

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 11-03-2001).]

Hi Scott

Thanks for your input - sounds like we are doing some of the same stuff. As to using the arranger piano sounds for 'live'performance - I was under the impression that the keyboards were pretty much 'synth' feel - and that I would be better off using my FP-3 Roland - a 40 lb. regular piano - great sound too - I could still use it to trigger any of the accompaniments via midi I am thinking. What do you think about using the accompaniments during a jazz tune when you want to go into serious 'out of time' or rubato passages? Is it possible to press a button and get a prerecorded sequence to play - say for instance a string section passage that goes out of time and maybe has a more random percussion feel - lasts 5-15 seconds or whatever - and then reverts back to the original feel - Hows that for a convoluted question??? I would sure like to know your feelings re: the PA80 and GEM stuff in relation to your Technics.

thanks
Mike up North

Mike, I totally agree that playing a weighted keyboard like the Roland FP-3 is highly preferable. Only a weighted action keyboard offers you the dynamic playing control and pianistic emulation opportunities on a synth keyboard.

Four years ago, I performed using a Fatar 88 note weighted action keyboard connected to my old arranger (Roland R800 module). Coming from a life-long background as an acoustic piano player, I couldn't imagine even considering playing a synth action keyboard. After suffering several bouts of a bad back and canceled gigs, I realized that I had to make some changes (compromises), or give up gigging altogether.

It took me quite some time (a month) to fully re-adjust my keyboard playing technique to accomodate acoustic piano style playing on a synth action keyboard, but now that I have, I am now able to adjust (almost instantly) back and forth between my Steinway B Grand (fully weighted heavy action) to my synth action (61 note) Technics KN5000 keyboard. Before this time, I thought I would never be able to achieve it, but now I realize otherwise. Since then, I no longer suffer from back problems. I realize that we humans are highly adaptive creatures.

Another issue is the 61 versus 76 note arranger keyboard thing. If solo piano style playing (arranger function OFF) is important for you, I definitely recommend a 76 note (or more) keyboard because the additional 15 notes (octave plus 3) really offers the 'minimal' required keyboard real estate needed for true solo piano style playing.

On the other hand, if you primarily use the arranger for LIVE keyboard (arranger function ON), work, I feel that 61 notes is plenty enough. When you play in arranger keyboard mode (either split or full keyboard 'pianist' mode), you typically use your left hand to comp (triggering the arranger auto-accompaniment chord recognition) while your right hand normally plays fills, counter melodies, and solos. The left hand (generally) really only needs about an octave and a half (when applying smooth harmonic voice leading), leaving the right hand over 3 octaves (about the same amount of territory you have in the right hand in normal 88 note piano playing. Also, with an arranger keyboard, you can easily transpose the octaves of the left hand and right hand at will . This offers even more flexibility.

I NOW prefer playing in arranger keyboard (auto acompaniment) mode especially when playing jazz standards, because it allows you the flexibility to make chord substitutions (tri-tone, etc) on the fly. I typically DON'T like to play along with accompaniments because you are then LOCKED IN to a preset sequence. YUCK! Playing in arranger mode, you can also 'take an additional chorus', modulate, etc, on the fly. Afterall, jazz is all about improvisation and spontaneity, right?

When I play 'Realbook' jazz & latin standards, on my Technics KN5000 (with arranger function ON), I play in full keyboard mode, using the left hand to play a combination of root and jazzy rootless piano voicings (to correctly trigger the autoaccompaniment) while playing (in the right hand) melody, counter melody, fills, and solos. I believe that the trick to sounding professional is to use the arranger backup parts as a backdrop to compliment your LIVE playing and singing. Adding fills at various appropriate places will add sponteniety and realism to the performance as well. Bringing on another LIVE musician (Bass player, horn player, percussionist, additional vocalist) will enhance improvisation (interaction between musicians) which is truly a hallmark of jazz.

Mike, what are some of your favorite jazz tunes you play? Do you play from the RealBook?

As far as going out of time (rubato) with auto accomp, this is not really possible to accomplish with the arranger function ON (auto accomp mode). If I want a tune to include a rubato section, I will typically start the song (rubato style) with the arranger function OFF. I might play the keyboard in split mode, with the left hand set to acoustic bass, while my right hand plays the piano melody (or accompaniment fills) when I'm singing, or play the keyboard (full keyboard mode) as a solo piano. I then go into time (arranger keyboard mode ON) at the second A section or at the bridge. Though not exactly rubuto, another technique is to change the feel (groove) in the middle of a song. You can store/select a different tempo or groove (drum solo) etc for a bar or 2 and go back to the original feel. There are definitely certain arranger tricks you can use to make the music interesting. On the Technics KN keyboards you can easily record a sequence 2-4 bar sequence (much as you requested) which can be triggered via performance pad buttons.

As far as the Korg PA80 and GEM keyboards go: Both of these keyboards do not support the popular jazz style 'chord voicing' recognition that Technics KN6500/5000 & Yamaha 9000/9000pro and (to some degree) the new Solton Ketron SD1 now support. If you are truly a jazz piano player, then I recommend the Technics KN6500/5000 #1 (because it has (in my opinion) has the best quality and most variety of swing & latin styles). The Yamaha 9000pro is another good option (76 keys, but IMHO too heavy for taking out gigging). Though the SD1 now supports rootless jazz style chord recognition, I still think that the drums & rhythm section are a litle too rock oriented (in your face) for my taste for straight ahead & modern jazz material. As far as ease of use, NOTHING beats the Technics OS. These are only my personal opinions, but hey, I'm speaking from experience as a pro musician (not a salesman). - Scott

Hi Scott - (this is also on the other thread)

Yes - I do play out of the real book - working hard to memorize my way through it - I write some stuff that we play - some cross between Bill Evans and Tito Puente - ha! - It's all pretty much instrumental though - lots of work for the piano man to try and keep it fresh. I do enjoy playing stuff like Love for Sale, You don't know what love is, Nite has 1000 eyes, darn that dream,I'll remember april - ah the list goes on - but I would like to learn more stuff like Joe Farell's tune - Molten Glass

Anyways - the rubato sort of thing I was thinking about had to do with intros and interludes that might be pretty free form at times but had a definite chord structure. I guess what I want is to pull up a song - and have some specific prerecorded sequences -(which may or may not have used the accompaniment features) - and have the activation of those sequences tied in with pushing a button - seems like it should be possible - especially on an arranger which allows you to record songs which include a full range of information for settings and parts.

Mike in Alaska