Decided to start a thread on this because I don't want Scott to feel in anyway this is directed at him. I thought a clean thread on this topic might be more productive.

My take on criticism is this...

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Now, as the target of large regular doses of both good (from my audiences) and not so good (from the Wife/teen age daughters) criticism, I hope I've arrived at a healthy place with all of it.

When I get criticism, I also evaluate the source. If my audience of little old ladies goes on and on about how good I am...that's great, but I consider that different from a peer vocalist/kb guy who says my chord changes on "fill in the blank" were creative and tasteful.

Neither is MORE or LESS valuable to me...but they tell me different things. The little old ladies who are thrilled with my performance confirm for me that I've played the right material...in a respectful and tasteful way and made my audience happy. That's huge...Doesn't matter to me if I'm playing a restaurant or a locked down, memory care unit. My job is to entertain. If I've been entertaining, then its all good.

One thing that I've improved upon is accepting criticism from my band members. Now, not surprisingly the feedback increased dramataically right after I got my first Tyros. I understood they felt threatened and much of their feedback was baseless. However, my sax guy is a great reader of the audience in terms of knowing the right song for the right moment throughout the night. When I started with the band many years ago, I'd screw song selection so bad you wouldn't believe. I also had to admit I had some feelings of intimidation around this guy because he had been playing in Dayton for over 30 years, whereas, I was new to this scene. At first he'd make negative comments about a song I'd called up which really weirded me out. After a couple of nights of this I told him that I appreciated his input...that his ideas were good ones. But the way he was communicating it to me was disrespectful. So, rather than just blow him off...I asked him to get his ideas across to me in a different way. Since then, he gets with me before we start and alerts me to any special tunes that would work well. We rarely have any problems any more because we've been together for almost ten years.

I don't recall anyone posting any feedback of a critical nature of any of my work that's available on my web site...

(www.billcorfield.com)

I sure can, lol...

Every song available has some flaws to it. No question about it. From the oddness of the Tyros 1 harmonizer to some EQ recording issues on a few tunes, etc....What they're intended to do is provide a listener with the general idea of what I sound like. I don't perform any song perfectly. There's always something that I could have done to make it better, more interesting, etc...

To close, I think all Musicians should welcome feedback...but understand that so much of is dismissable. (sp?) Consider all of it for sure, but no matter if its great or bad...I can't get too worked up about it. I do what I do...I like it most of the time, as does my audience...so I'll keep fixing things as I discover them but try and keep the comments at arm's reach...

Good topic Bill!
When I go see another band or a single, I can't help but make judgments about most everything they do. I am not so sure the average person in our audiences don't do the same, from their own perspective.

My crowds are not shy about telling me what they like or don't like. If all I ever got was negative, I'd probably quit the biz. But, even the negatives help me to decide to keep or scrap material, change a style, wear a different shirt...or whatever.

Like most of you, I do a wide variety of songs and genres. Programming is critical. A lot of the "BB Swing" people will patiently wait for one of their tunes...but it better be coming up on the horizon soon. The "Country", "Rock 'n Roll", "Waltzers", "Polka" and "Ballroom" dancers are no different. Folks who request a song don't want to have to wait 30 minutes for you to do it.

I pay close attention to people who comment on the volume. "Too loud" or "not loud enough" usually gets immediate attention. Few people ever comment about what a great singer I am...cause I am not. I guess they subscribe to what Mama always said..."If you can't say something nice, etc. etc. etc."

The compliment I LOVE hearing is, "That was very enjoyable", or "We had a really great time". Nobody says that unless they mean it. And nothing brings more satisfaction than packing a dance floor and getting repeat bookings.

As for the technical stuff, NO ONE has ever complained about a piano, sax or other instumental voice I use, EQ, Delay, Harmonizer (which I use very sparingly) or any of the other hundreds of things that go into playing an arranger effectively. No one has ever said.."oh was that a midi file?" or "you should have phrased the lyrics differently".

Having said all that, I would not recommend anyone who is too thin skinned to go on stage regardless of how good they think they are.

Eddie

I've always been fortunate in that I have a reasonably good singing voice, which in my case has pulled me through some tough spots. I wish I could play half as good as Scott Yee, I wish I were making as much money per performance as song of the Jazz players, and I damned sure wish I were a lot younger. Oh well, at least I can still sing.

Overall, I pretty much agree with everything Eddie and Bill posted--pretty much says it all.

Cheers,

Gary

Cheers,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Don't we ALL ?!?!? ...

One of my steady gigs is a high end Country Club ... I consider myself wallpaper, and I still am a little surprised when at the end of the gig people are walking out and they will say "Thank you, we really enjoyed the music", or as one member said last week "I really enjoyed the way you did 'Moondance' "... I REALLY didn't think anyone was paying that much attention ... but like most of you guys, I also make a point of remembering if someone DOES ask for a particular song, and when I see tham in the room the next time, I make a point of playing it ... One couple actually WAITS for me to do "Just the Way You Are" ...

But as I said in the other post, if I post something here, I expect - NO make that LOOK FOR comments ... and more than "thanks for posting" ... and if I am going to look for the good, I'd better be ready for the bad ...

t.

We also had a good thread about this here; http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/014039.html

Hey Diki, the guy who started that thread was really smart. Nice of you to remember it. I was thinking about it too when reading the comments about Scott's latest contribution.

Tony....Moondance....fine choice....play it all the time! (must be a mind-meld)!


Russ

Russ ... Just waiting for the duo to be formed ... ...
t.

GREAT, Tony, but just what would the folk music version of Moondance sound like? Maby Tony and I should work up a country version.

NOT!


Russ

I couldn't agree more. While I don't post my opinion of other people's singing/playing I don't think that we should resort to censure. I'm interested in tips, techniques and resources that have to do with keyboards and specifically arrangers. The more members get involved the more valuable these topics will be.

The other members' musical ability or lack thereof isn't really of interest to me. However I enjoy sharing what I have learned with others if it can help them and also learning from others who have info that I do not.

I defend everyones right to express their opinion. Let's be adults and realize everyone will not agree. That's ok and to be expected. I repeat " censure is not the answer!"

Let me hear everyones opinion and then make up my own mind. Let everyone have this common courtesy

Richard Shiflet

Well I see another thread got vaporized.

Not sure what happened either. I've been busy and haven't been able to check in at the Zone for a few days but I see the thread that I believe Bill started has been wiped off the map.

I realize Nigel has to make a judgement call when things start to 'disinegrate' into backbiting or whatever the case may be. Perhaps he also does it to save the dignity of the people involved which is commendable on his part.

I think a good reason to say bye bye to a thread or post is when there are personal attacks involved which Nigel has already made clear he won't tolerate.

Here is a good definition of a 'personal attack':

"Generally, a personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when examining another person's claims or comments. It is considered a personal attack when a person starts referencing a supposed flaw or weakness in an individual's personality, beliefs, lifestyle, convictions or principles, and use it as a debate tactic or as a means of avoiding discussion of the relevance or truthfulness of what the person said. It works on the reasoning that, by discrediting the source of an argument, e.g. the person making it, the argument itself can be weakened.

This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself. The truth value of a claim is independent of the person making the claim. After all, no matter how morally repugnant a person might be, he or she can still make true claims.

For example:
Witness: "I saw X murder the shopkeeper."
Defense attorney: "Isn't it true that you are a convicted felon?"

On the other hand, illuminating real character flaws and inconsistencies in the position of an opponent are a vital part of the public political process and of the adversarial judicial process.

Use of a personal attack in a logical argument constitutes a logical fallacy called Ad hominem, a term that comes from a Latin phrase meaning "toward the man".

PS: I saw (but have not yet read) Scott's thread about him leaving. I'm sorry to see him go. He has been a consistent contributor to the Synthzone Arranger Forum for many years. I wish him well and hope the bitterness he may be experiencing right now may resolve itself and that he could return to the Zone sometime in the future when and if he feels comfortable to do so.

Best regards,
Mike

Sorry, Tomy...I meant "Buck" Chas...you know, the country music lover. We have a group forming, TOO!

NOT!


Russ

I agree that censure is not the answer....... but the end of your post has the TRUE answer - COMMON COURTESY is the answer...... From both critic AND subject.

It's a shame how uncommon that common courtesy has become......

In the old days it was considered bad form
for one musician to criticize another in public...

I miss the good 'ol days

TP123

Thanks Mike, yes you are reading me exactly. Yes I do move in quickly and "vaporize" threads that have started to become pointlessly argumentative and are disrespectful of fellow musicians. I must admit I really hate those sorts of threads and they serve no useful purpose so I kill them dead. Sorry that won't change here. That's just based on how I think reasonable human beings should behave. Sorry for those people that don't fall into the category of "reasonable human beings" because I'm sure I must piss off those people


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 12-17-2006).]