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#216819 - 07/05/07 09:13 PM Re: " The Sampling ( copyed) fighting BAR"
Nick G Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1109
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
if that really is the law then we are living in a sad little world...

how can making a cover song and posting it on the internet for others to see be illegal?

I posted my Tyros 2 rendition of Cavatina which was written by John Williams on the Internet. made ZERO profit out of it (didn't intend to)and you are saying thats "not permissible?".

are you getting these facts from a rule book or you are assuming?

Nick
_________________________
Yamaha PSR SX900 / Roland G70 / Roland BK9 / Korg PA700 / Roland GW-8L / Roland Fantom O6

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#216820 - 07/05/07 11:15 PM Re: " The Sampling ( copyed) fighting BAR"
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14207
Loc: NW Florida
Has anyone been reading these posts...?

It has already been stated that clubs and restaurants pay a fee to the rights holders (a blanket fee that is shared amongst all copyright holders on a sliding scale) for live music to be played in their establishments. So you can perform a cover tune out in public without breaking any laws.

Secondly, there are different laws and rights concerning LIVE performance, and recorded works.

And thirdly, as I said, the degree of enforcement is up to the rights societies, and copyright holders. It is a fact that they don't usually restrict people from doing what I and many (including you?) here at SZ do every day. Posting a recording of a cover of a tune on an obscure little forum for arranger users, for no other reason than to show each other their style or work, is of no concern to the copyright holder. But as I said, they DO haver the right to request it be removed if they so choose. And if they did, I would have no problem with compliance.

And once again, everybody (sorry, I should say just the few of you left with some kind of mission to find Dom's actions defensible by any means necessary) are still ignoring the scale of what is happening. Me posting a cover of an obscure Grateful Dead tune on an obscure forum has NOTHING in common with a keyboard manufacturer colluding with another individual to steal the legally copyrighted soundset IN IT'S ENTIRETY (or close enough that it doesn't matter) and the styles of a competitor's product, because his are not competitive.

Putting up the entire Grateful Dead catalog on MP3's for free is FAR closer to the equivalent. And that is illegal.

Period.

I am now done with this topic. Those of you that remain firmly unconvinced that Dom's actions are wrong (and quite possibly illegal) have past the point of any reasoning. Many of us have pointed out the absurdities of your positions, yet you remain adamant. So be it.

As I said earlier, I can only pray that you have sufficient success that when this happens to you, you remember this thread, and your comments. How could you be angry at a thief of YOUR property, when you condoned his theft of another's?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#216821 - 07/05/07 11:35 PM Re: " The Sampling ( copyed) fighting BAR"
Nigel Offline
Admin

Registered: 06/01/98
Posts: 6483
Loc: Ventura CA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Taike:
Whether they generate income or not...it's not permissible. That's the law! Barely damaged anything...?

Taike
T



Taike you edited out Diki's statement
Quote:

However, my duo DOES have a CD for sale of us playing live, we sell it on the gig. Each and every tune on that CD is cleared with the copyright holders, and we pay a fee to the rights societies for the use of those tunes....


Was there a reason you did that because I think it answers the stament you make.

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#216822 - 07/06/07 12:16 AM Re: " The Sampling ( copyed) fighting BAR"
Taike Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 2814
Loc: Xingyi, Guizhou (China)
Quote:
Originally posted by Nigel:
Was there a reason you did that because I think it answers the stament you make.


Originally posted by Taike:
Whether they generate income or not...it's not permissible. That's the law! Barely damaged anything...?
Taike

It wasn't posted as a quote nor meant as one, Nigel. I merely repeated what Diki wrote in my own words. Posting songs without permission from the copyright holder and bringing out a CD where dues have been paid are two entirely different matters.

I thought that I'd posted the following but perhaps it didn't go through or the post had been deleted:

Excerpt from: http://www.mpa.org/copyright_resource_center/faq

Do I need permission to make an arrangement or transcription?
If an arrangement is made of a copyrighted work without the authorization of the copyright owner, the arrangement would be an unauthorized derivative work and therefore an infringement of the copyright and the exclusive right of the copyright owner. The first thing to do when you want to make an arrangement is check if the work is in the public domain or if it is protected by copyright. If the work is protected by copyright, you cannot make an arangement without the prior permission of the copyright owner.
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ03.html

Excerpt from: http://www.hinshawmusic.com/copyright.html#anchor27487 (

""We do not need a performance license because this performance is sponsored by a non-profit group." Even non-profits need to obtain a license for certain "non-exempt" performances. "

This is for Nick: http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/ip/copyright.shtml



[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 07-06-2007).]
_________________________
最猖獗的人权侵犯 者讨论其他国 家的人权局势而忽略本国严重的人权 问题是何等伪善。

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#216823 - 07/06/07 01:05 AM Re: " The Sampling ( copyed) fighting BAR"
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
I am always amazed at how some people try to legitimize their illegal actions. While mischaracterizing the issue at hand.

Diki posted: Posting a recording of a cover of a tune on an obscure little forum for arranger users, for no other reason than to show each other their style or work, is of no concern to the copyright holder. But as I said, they DO haver the right to request
it be removed if they so choose. And if they did, I would have no problem with compliance.
Notice in that post in describing his actions, we did not see the words steeling, legally copyrighted or colluding. We saw words aimed at softening and legitimizing the action by using obscure little forum.

Then he describes Doms actions as: keyboard manufacturer colluding with another individual to steal the legally copyrighted soundset IN IT'S ENTIRETY (or close enough that it doesn't matter)
and the styles of a competitor's product, because his are not competitive.

In that excerpt, We can see the change of tone by the words used and the mischaracterization of what Dom is doing and what the mediastation is.

I am not saying whether what Dom is doing is right or wrong legal or illegal, but I think it would be wise of us, in order to have this discussion to understand what is being done and not being done.

1. Dom is taking only selected sounds (not all of the sounds from the T2) from the T2 and making them playable in the mediastation.
2. All the nuances and the specific articulations of each sound are not going to be there when you play them in the mediastation.
3. The sounds are not replacing the onboard sounds of the mediastation.

I think that some of the misconceptions stem from the fact that some people on the forum still dont understand the concept of the mediastation. They are still thinking in terms of a closed keyboard system like the BIG 3 and their business model.
A statement like his are not competitive demonstrates this.

I think it is disingenuous when copyright holders conveniently characterize a new and cutting edge technology technique or business venture as steeling illegal and wrong when they are not the ones doing the actions. But when they are the ones doing the actions i.e. the original samplers of acoustic instruments, it was right, legal and not steeling.

Lets face it the music industry is such that most persons are trying to benefit as much as they can from others work. We are always trying to push the envelope to see how much we can do with out going through a lot of expenses.

I dont think any of us as arranger players can get on our moral high-horse and make it sound like we do everything to be just to everyone else in the industry. By playing arrangers, we are intentionally cutting out lots of other persons from working. Why because we want to make more money. Instead of playing in a band with other instrumentalist, we use and arranger that has samples of those instruments, technology that causes those instruments to play by them selves by us pressing a chords (styles) and some of you all dont make your own styles. And I could have used harsh words (like how some people use the word steel) to describe what I just said I could have said we cheat by using arrangers and that you all are too lazy and incompetent to make your own styles (but I am not going to say it like that).

Big companies in the music industry are usually adverse to new technology if they are not the ones controlling it. They make the little people argue their points using the moral argument but they know they are only concerned with one thing, MONEY. As long as they are making all the MONEY, they are really not concerns who they have to hurt to do so. I would not be surprised if Yamaha or some other company would be trying to buy out the person or persons that have the technology to get the T2 sounds to another format. We will just have to wait and see how this all plays out because we dont know where Yamaha or other keyboard companies are going with their newer keyboard technology.
_________________________
TTG

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#216824 - 07/06/07 03:19 AM Re: " The Sampling ( copyed) fighting BAR"
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:


And thirdly, as I said, the degree of enforcement is up to the rights societies, and copyright holders. It is a fact that they don't usually restrict people from doing what I and many (including you?) here at SZ do every day. Posting a recording of a cover of a tune on an obscure little forum for arranger users, for no other reason than to show each other their style or work, is of no concern to the copyright holder.


SONGRAMP (the largest song-posting site) doesn't allow it, so SOMEBODY must be concerned about it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:

And once again, everybody (sorry, I should say just the few of you left with some kind of mission to find Dom's actions defensible by any means necessary) are still ignoring the scale of what is happening. Me posting a cover of an obscure Grateful Dead tune on an obscure forum has NOTHING in common with a keyboard manufacturer colluding with another individual to steal the legally copyrighted soundset IN IT'S ENTIRETY (or close enough that it doesn't matter) and the styles of a competitor's product, because his are not competitive. ?


As soon as you use the word "scale", you seem to imply that a "little" theft is ok (especially if you're the one doing it) but a "big" one is not. So I guess size DOES matter .

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:

Many of us have pointed out the absurdities of your positions, yet you remain adamant. So be it. ?


Whoops, there's that arrogance again. I guess any position that differs from yours is absurd.

Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:

As I said earlier, I can only pray that you have sufficient success that when this happens to you, you remember this thread, and your comments. How could you be angry at a thief of YOUR property, when you condoned his theft of another's?


In light of the above, sounds a little hypocritical to me. I say "let him who is without sin cast the first stone" .

chas (who, so far, has never been in a position to "cast the first stone")
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#216825 - 07/06/07 06:26 AM Re: " The Sampling ( copyed) fighting BAR"
keysvocalssax Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 845
Loc: Miami FL nov-may/Lakeville CT ...
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
. By playing arrangers, we are intentionally cutting out lots of other persons from working. Why because we want to make more money. Instead of playing in a band with other instrumentalist, we use and arranger that has samples of those instruments, technology that causes those instruments to play by themselves by us pressing a chords (styles)


We are not cutting out other people from working unless we are going into a place that has bands and saying: hey
why pay all those guys when I can make the same music
for the price of one. in my experience that is not what is
happening, and if a place hires an omb to replace a band,
that means the band had little impact, because no way
an omb will have the same kind of impact or be as strong
an attraction as a good band would. It's just that today's
economics and musical tastes increasingly preclude the hiring of bands as a viable option, so the deejay, the
kjay, the omb have filled the gap. we are able to work
as live entertainers because we are economic for smaller
venues and events. what does amaze me, however, is the
number of you that say they work as omb's to 100-250
people. I don't really understand that at all, unless the
venue or sponsor finds the omb, for some reason musically preferable to a band. But we can hardly blame
the practioner of what technology has provided for the
fallout that comes from technological advance. A couple
of years ago i hired a pianist to work duo with me on a
gig..i played sax , sang, and used my kb for vibes solos..
i hit the bossa rhythm bass/drum backing on one tune
and the pianist got up in a huff and said.." i know too many good drummers out of work for me to consent to
play with a machine" I thought he was misguided. Do You?

------------------
Miami Mo
_________________________
Miami Mo

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#216826 - 07/06/07 08:21 AM Re: " The Sampling ( copyed) fighting BAR"
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by keysvocalssax:
A couple
of years ago i hired a pianist to work duo with me on a
gig..i played sax , sang, and used my kb for vibes solos..
i hit the bossa rhythm bass/drum backing on one tune
and the pianist got up in a huff and said.." i know too many good drummers out of work for me to consent to
play with a machine" I thought he was misguided. Do You?



Mo, answering in any meaningful way would send this thread in yet another direction. Would this be a hijack of a hijack? In any case, in answer to your question, who knows, let's ask Diki .

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#216827 - 07/06/07 08:49 AM Re: " The Sampling ( copyed) fighting BAR"
keysvocalssax Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 845
Loc: Miami FL nov-may/Lakeville CT ...
Quote:
Originally posted by cgiles:
Mo, answering in any meaningful way would send this thread in yet another direction. Would this be a hijack of a hijack? In any case, in answer to your question, who knows, let's ask Diki .

chas



right you are,chas, so nobody else answer this here..
i started it as a new thread.."moral q...etc



------------------
Miami Mo
_________________________
Miami Mo

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#216828 - 07/10/07 01:59 AM Re: " The Sampling ( copyed) fighting BAR"
LIONSTRACS Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 664
Loc: Italy

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