One of the things we all struggle with is having to use the same 1 or 2 Intros for different songs that use the same style. The other problem is playing the rest of the song at the same professional level as the Intro. Here is one solution that could easily be implemented by the manufacturer at very little cost and a minor OS modification. It would essentially be a quick and dirty style maker using a "pick & click" from a "pool" of factory (read professionally produced) Intros and Endings, let's say 5-10 per style; append them to existing Variations, and save as a new (or renamed) style. For the most part, the Variations are okay, as chord changes and what you're playing with the right hand creates enough "variation" between songs. Obviously, tempo changes could also be saved with the "new" style for even more variation. Hope this isn't confusing but it sounds like such an easy thing to implement and would solve this age-old problem with arrangers. In fact, I'm sure it could be done right now if we only had that pool of factory-produced Intros and Endings. What do you think?

chas

I think you have a good idea in theory...that probably will never aspire......most arrangers are able to record your own style intros any way you like its a fature not many utilize aside from actually just playing live intros in real time ....I do it all the time.....I also remember Roland G70 offers FOUR different intros with one of them totaly customizable ? http://sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=2020

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-06-2006).]

That sounds like a great idea. Thank goodness a product already exists that has that ability.

Dave

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Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

Although my wife assumes that I am, I am not a mind-reader. Could you please elaborate.

Thanks,

chas

Hi Chas,

Thought you would never ask.

The Genesys has the ability to copy any phrase of a given style, i.e. any of the four Intro's, four Ending's, four Fill's and four Variations to any of the 64 User Style locations. Therefore you can pick and choose any of the phrases mentioned from any of the 256 internal styles and create new custom styles.

Of course the result depends on selecting phrases from various styles that will match up style-wise. Then again you might want to do a tune like Green Dolphin Street where the 'A' section is latin and the 'B' section is swing so pulling phrases from two entirely different style feels would be very appropriate. The advantage in that example is one style could take care of the entire song instead of have to select between a bossa nova and a swing style in the middle of the song.

If you want to know more, I will elaborate.

Best Regards,

Dave


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Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

Hi Chas,
which keyboard do you have?
Some do have functions where you can copy style phrases ( Bass, drums ,strings etc )& mix n match to create new style parts, but phrases are better suited to variations and fills, because a lot of intro's & endings have chord progressions.
Some keyboards allow you to copy complete style parts like an intro, ending , fills variations etc. & you can mix n match that way.

My Ketron sd1 has this copy function.

Yamaha's I think call it Style Assembly. and if you're actually a psr owner, OMB software could be used for this function ie you can save phrases from style parts and import them into existing styles or create completely new ones.
You could even put together a library of intro's , endings etc etc that you could import into different styles.

Not quite as versatile as what you're suggesting, but the copy function does come in handy.

best wishes

Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cgiles:
[b]

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 06-06-2006).]

Hi Rikki, I have a number of keyboards but as to arrangers, I have a Tyros 2 and a PA1X Pro. I wanted to check the op. manual before I responded to you. The Tyros 2 does indeed have a style assembly process but what it does is somewhat different from what I had in mind....plus, it's a little cumbersome. Apparently the GeneralMusic instrument comes closest and seems (from Dave's desciption) to be the the most flexible of the current crop of arrangers in terms of style creation (or shall we say, re-assembly). However, what is missing is the pool of dedicated (style-specific) Intros, Fills, and Endings, to choose from. The proceedure, as I envision it, would be to:
1) choose a (factory) style
2) choose an Intro 1(or 2 or 3) from a pool of Intros created specifically for that style
3) repeat for Intro 2, Fills, and Endings
4) change tempo if needed
5) save as "new" style

As with the GeneralMusic system, one should also be able to mix and match components from different styles to accomodate tunes such as Green Dolphin Street, as in Dave's example.

Again, we are not talking so much about creating new styles here as we are about keeping existing styles from seeming repetitive as we move from song to song during the course of a gig. The main focus here is to make it very, very, very easy to do.

Peace,
chas

Hi Chas,
no doubt your idea would be a good one,but maybe not in manufacturers best interests.
If we have too many options for creating "top quality styles" ourselves, there may not be the burning desire to upgrade our keyboard each time they bring out a new model. haa haa
Probably just me, but the first thing I used to do, was go thru was the intro's & endings. I was under the misguided notion that because a style had new intro's, they must have created some brand new styles. Found out not neccasarily the case, sometimes it was just the same old style with new intro's & endings and maybe some updated voices. I found with the Technics over the years the majority of styles were carried forward to the next model, & they'd include a few new ones. At least one did have the option of buying extra style disks, and there was a fairly large collection available thru a 3rd party source..

I sometimes just create my own. Use a fade in, or use a chord progression to match the tune I want to play. Must admit I get sick of the same 3 intro's for every song I want to play using that particular style.

best wishes
rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cgiles:
[b]

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 06-07-2006).]

Hi Chas,

Several things to consider; Think about most songs of any style, country, swing, latin, etc. and you will find that for the most part the rhythm section is not changing all that much in the feel they are playing, just in the chords they are playing that relate to a particular song. Forget the horn stabs, string lines and so forth and think only about the rhythm section. It's the chord pattern that makes the song. A mistake many style creators make is making the styles to busy. Yes that sells product on the sales floor, and can make an amateur sound like they really know what they are doing, but in the long run all that extra flittering around just makes for a very cluttered sound.

A very cool idea for an intro is to have a four bar (or whatever length you desire) based on just one chord. This way you 'the player' can decide what chord progression to use for the intro to a given song. This can also work for an ending.

I do understand what you are describing and I like the idea. But then again, you would still be selecting from a number of pre-designed style phrases that you would eventually become so familiar with that you would find yourself desiring another as of yet unavailable feature. If you put a little effort into learning the features that already exist and creating you own truly unique styles, I'll bet that you would end up happier than if there was such a feature as you described.

Just some thoughts to be taken with a grain or two of salt.

Best Regards,

Dave


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Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 06-07-2006).]

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 06-07-2006).]

Hi Dave,
don't know whether I've misread, but do you mean you can copy ie a variation phrase to an intro?
My sd can copy a variation phrase to a variation or an intro phrase to an intro etc

Unfortunately i don't know anything about the genesys, I don't think we have an Aussie dealership??

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by WDMcM:
[B]

The Genesys has the ability to copy any phrase of a given style, i.e. any of the four Intro's, four Ending's, four Fill's and four Variations to any of the 64 User Style locations. Therefore you can pick and choose any of the phrases mentioned from any of the 256 internal styles and create new custom styles.

Hi Rick,

First things first;
BAVAS MUSIC CITY
252 Macquarie St
NSW 2170 - Liverpool
AUSTRALIA
Tel: +61 (2) 9824 2211
E-Mail:keyboards@bavasmusic.com.au
Web:http://www.bavasmusic.com.au

I am sure Nick at Bavas will be happy to point you to a Generalmusic dealer in your area.

Secondly, yes if you really wanted to copy a variation phrase to an intro phrase you can. You would do this by copying the individual tracks you want from the source phrase into a new or existing style.

Each style has four Variations. Each Variation has its own Intro, Fill-in and Ending (16 phrases in all that we call Riffs). Multiply that by 3 since you can record separate Riffs for major, minor and 7th chords and you have a total of 48 Riffs. A Riff consists of 8 tracks with full sequencer editing capabilities.

Below I have included 3 screen shots showing the Track Copy, Riff Copy and Variation Copy views that may help in understanding the capabilities of the Genesys in this regards.
[img]http://www.generalmusic.us/WDMGenesysScreens/CopyTrack.bmp[/img]
[img]http://www.generalmusic.us/WDMGenesysScreens/CopyRiff.bmp[/img]
[img]http://www.generalmusic.us/WDMGenesysScreens/CopyVariation.bmp[/img]

Best Regards,

Dave

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Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

Hi Dave,
thank you for that.
I know of ( though never dealt with) Bavas Music . Hubby & I used to live in Sydney.
I'll do a bit more investigating.

Interesting style creation functions.

Does the arranger module ( can't remember the name) have all of the same style editing/creation functions as a Genesys keyboard??
Yourselves & Ketron appear to be the only ones still making modules, & unfortunately with Ketron they don't make one with all the same functions as their top of the line keyboard.

I think I actually have one or 2 Genesys owners in my Yahoo Making Styles group, unfortunately I'm not much help to them.
best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WDMcM:
[b] Hi Rick,



[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 06-08-2006).]

Hi Rikki,

First let me apologize for calling you Rick. Sorry.

Second, yes the Genesys XP module has the exactly same functionality as the keyboard versions. The button layout is slightly different do to front panel space considerations, but all functions are still available.

Best Regards,

Dave


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Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

Hi Dave,
that's ok. With a name like Rikki, most people would assume I'm a male ( haa haa)

Thank you for the info on the General Music products, especially on the xp module, it's one of the few brands I haven't owned before, mainly because I didn't realize they were available here.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WDMcM:
[B] Hi Rikki,

First let me apologize for calling you Rick. Sorry.

You can copy the intro from any style to any other style using any Yamaha PSR or Tyros series of keyboard. You'll find detailed instructions at the www.psrtutorial.com site. There's really nothing to it, and it provides lots of options for any onboard and third-party style. You can also copy and past fills, endings and breaks using the same technique. This feature has been available since the introduction of the PSR-2000.

Cheers,

Gary

Roland since G800..

Hi Gary,
do you happen to know if you can actually copy a "variation" phrase to an "intro"??
I know I can do it in OMB but I can't remember if my ex 9000pro could do it??
I lost my collection of online psr manuals when my computer crashed, and haven't gotten round to downloading them all again.

On the sd1 I'm fairly certain I can only copy an intro phrase to an Intro, or a variation phrase to another variation, I can't mix em up.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by travlin'easy:
[B]

Hi Fran,
I was wondering,
do you happen to have links to Roland resources ie is there anywhere owners can download styles, or get a bit of help for their keyboards.

I'd like to put some links in my Making Styles group for some of the Roland owners.
I'm far too rusty on how I used to record g800 styles.

best wishes
rikki

Rikki,

To my knowledge, you are limited to copying intros to intros, variations to variations, endings to endings, etc. Keep in mind, however, that they can be copied from any Yamaha or third party style that has been converted, which gives you an enormous number of options and possibilities.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Thanks Gary,
I had the feeling that was the case.
best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by travlin'easy:
[B]Rikki,

To my knowledge, you are limited to copying intros to intros, variations to variations, endings to endings, etc.