Friends,

I think I had asked this question before in other words, but for all you out there who currently own keyboards that are NOT made by Ketron, which main features are you looking for which if you did see on a Ketron product, you'd purchase it?

Please be serious, realistic, specific and very detailed. Also remember cost is a factor so be carefull what you ask for ... you might just get it.

For an example (Easy OS - Explain [easy access to arranger buttons on Left side, direct display of sounds/styles, very stable, ease of ...] ) and remember I will be reading this post closely.

Thanks,

AJ

AJ, You know who i am and you know i purchased a Tyros for many reasons at Keyboard City: The weight : 27lbs. The easy set up and retrival of the registrations: The Multi Pads. The big band styles, which i think sound much better and more realistic.The only drawback that i can honestly find is the vocal processer is not as good as the Ketrons. Besides that, i relly like the Tyros . Now this is coming from a 68 year old man ( geezer ) who does not play a lot of R&R unless it from the fifties or sixties, and the Ketron seems to be directed to the younger musicians who like and play the current type of rock. I don't blame Ketron for going after those musicians. For me, unless the Ketron Corp. would make a arranger that would suite my needs like the Tyros, i guess i'll stick with Yamaha. ( They all need more Polkas) This should get a ride outta Dano. Bob Lee

For me, I'd have to sit down and play the keyboard(s) to see how they fit into my wants and needs. It's as simple as that. I've never seen one in any music store.

Al

i have the SD1. I don't know if i will rebuy a new keyboard, but, if you create a keyboard with specification of today's computers, perhaps...
A very good PROCESSOR !!!! Fast +++ not to wait 5 Min tu load a sound from the HD !!!, very good polyphonie +++, a good sampler who can read a standard multisample format, for use with comercials samples CD or software for convert to them +++

256 Mb RAM why not ??? I can add 40$ for this memory

why not programables multipads, to add some drums hits or litle midi phrases in live...

And an OPEN FORMAT for sound load !!!!!!!!!!!

Transfert files with USB format, as we can manage the HD of the keyboard from windows as a drive letter without any software

Oriental sounds and style of vega can be loaded (on option..., but can be done in the SD1 too!)

Let's start with an SD1, which I seriously considered purchasing. I like 6+ octaves in a relatively compact form factor, good sounds and styles, and a good vocal harmonizer. The weight is not bad, but lighter would be better. I was impressed when Ketron responded to a request from one of our members to change the chord recognition scheme and was disappointed when all that effort did not result in a sale.

There are two areas where a lot of musicians would consider the SD1 lacking: sounds and digital connectivity.

Sounds. On the positive side, the SD1 has some great sounds and provides Oriental sound sets. But there is only so much you can do with 48MB sound ROM, and the limit of 16MB sample RAM is ridiculous. Of course, some sample RAM is better than none (read Tyros), but many arranger musicians have been looking enviously at the Yamaha Motif ES, with its 175MB ROM soundset and its 1G maximum sample RAM. High-end keyboards really should be implemented large sample RAM and even hard-disk streaming of samples.

Digital computer connectivity is also necessary. Many want to do hard disk recording, and others would like to drive soft synths--so that we can keep up with the latest sounds without buying new keyboards annually. A firewire interface would work best, but USB should be available as an alternative. Also, the hideous floppy should be replaced with removable flash storage like SmartMedia or MemoryStick.

If there is computer connectivity, the keyboard should provide a digital-audio workstation control surface--at least some knobs and sliders, if not x-y pads and joysticks. These should be assignable, so they can also control local sound and style parameters (e.g., swing factor, complexity).

While mentioned continuous controllers, if it had polyphonic aftertouch, I would probably get one, even if some other shortcomings were not addressed. But since there has never been an arranger with this feature, I focus on other factors.

Moving from keyboards to modules--why are Ketron modules so large? Maybe the Yamaha QY series is overdoing the less-is-more approach, but something in between might that and the X4 might be more attractive.

To be honest..., a more affordable unit I think the SD-1 is great, but why not make a unit that is scaled down (that sequences), and still has those great Ketron sounds. Like what Korg did with the Triton. They released the LE which was scaled down, and more affordable to those of us with thin pockets Yamaha does it as well with the PSR's. There's a whole line up.

Squeak

AJ,

You asked the question and I am going to give you the real truth that is preventing me and many others (not everybody though ) from considering some keyboards over the others:

Other than PA80, none of the top arrangers are displayed in many major cities of the USA.

So if we want to buy something, we read this forum. This forum claims that Tyros is the best so we think of Tyros. The consesus of the forum scientifically means the following: the Tyros is at least one of the best. However, it does NOT say that it is truely the best or that SD1 cannot be a better substitute for it.

BUT.....BUT we have no choice whatsoever. X1 and SD1 are never to be found on DISPLAY!!!! Neither is the genesis nor VA7.

You guys have multiple options:

1) Pressure yourselves to work with Guitar Center and Sam Ash. That is very practical. I know the managers and salespeople in my area and they strongly claim that these top arrangers keyboards do not sell at and therefore, it is not worth getting a demo. I believe there is more than meets the eye. WORK with them. Make it happen.

2) If the first option does not work, In the major cities of the USA, have a demo center. Rent a store in a big mall and have it displayed.

3) Relying on small stores will not work. George Kay and Dan O'neal and others of the few successful ones, each have one store in one area and that is it.

It isn't enough to just see the keyboard on display - who's going to fix it when it breaks? What is the lag time to get parts here in the US? What kind of service guarantees can you offer if I decide to base my business on your products?

To my knowledge it isn't just the absence of Keytron from GC and Sam Ash but from every major internet music store that's a factor. Keytrons haven't made it into the popular keyboard review sites and mags either. They also aren't widely discussed on discussion groups because they don't have a wide user base, at least here inthe US. So not only are Keytrons an unknown, unheard and unreviewed item for me, they would be to any potential secondary buyers also. Personally, I not only buy new keyboards every few years but I also sell my existing ones. Popular name-brands get top resale dollars which means I have more money to shop with come upgrade time.

So the motivation to buy Keytron here in the US isn't there... and that's before we even get to the actual features of the instruments. On the other hand, look at the huge splash that newcomers Open Labs generated at NAMM with what was percieved as a break-through product with the eKo. The talk has died down since many people realized how overpriced that instrument is, but it briefly gave many of us hope that we wouldn't be as dependent on the big-guy manufacturers as we have been in the past. So the potential is there for new and innovative products to capture the attention of the US market, but it has to have the follow-through with support and availability to succeed.

AJ,
Greetings, Prince!
Some of my reasons for dumping the Ketron line:
1)polyphony allocation
*especially as it relates to harmonizer function.
2)multipads, button placement
3)third party support (styles, etc)

Overall, the line needs more visibility to attract attention from buyers. It's tough to find a display model in most areas.

UD is right about display models.. I have checked with numerous music stores in my state and not one of them had ever heard of Ketron. I still think some lower end models would be good though.. The Vega and the XD-9 were good, but lacked recording power, and I still think were fairly pricey.

Squeak

I am so glad this question was asked.

Just to let you know, I have owned a PA-80, VA-7, EM-2000, G-800, and now have a Tyros and SD-1

I would have to say if it was possible to morph the 2 keyboards, and a couple of additions you would have the arranger board of the decade.

Tyros wins in the
Operations
screen
layout
weight
half the styles
half the sounds
Polyphony
quick layer ability
front mic volume

SD-1 wins in the
vocalizer
xlr input
dynamic range
extra keys
more compact design
half the styles
half the sounds
hard drive interface with certain functions

SD-1 bad points
layout, still not easy enough for live play
polyphony
operations
screen
info on screen

Same story here AJ. I live 105 miles from New York city, 45 from Scranton, Pa, less than 2 hours away from most of the larger cities in the northern half of New Jersey, and about 125 miles from Philly. I haven't been able to find a ketron to try out in any music store in any of these areas ( Ok I didnt look that hard last time I was in Philly ). I was interested in looking at the XD9, but . I'd have had to drive to Maryland to do it. I just haven't had time to do that. It's a 4+ hour ride to Baltimore.

A top end arranger is no small investment, so I really need to be able to spend some time with one before I'd consider it.


AJ

1) A unit that would be comparable in price to a PSR2100.
2) It must be available. I won't buy any keyboard without playing it first.
3) The voices that I use most often, in order, are: 1 acoustic piano, 6 hammond organ, 1 flute, 1 tenor sax, 1 trumpet, 1 strings, 1 brass. I don't want quantity, I want quality (I counted 12 voices). If these voices are outstanding, It doesn't matter much if the others are not outstanding. Roland's 3000+ voices doesn't impress me.
Starkeeper

I would buy an XD-9 or SD-1 if it has the following:

-Similar priced to Yamaha PSR2100 or KORG PA80 respectively.
-At least as much functionalities and weight as PSR2100 or Tyros respectively. You can drop the color screen.
-Internal speakers as loud or better than above kybds. Some days, I just want to plug it in and play without worrying about amps, etc.
-Better or equal sounds in all major categories than above. All you need is some killer sounds in those major categories and label it like YAMAHA does. Sweet sax, Live piano, etc.

Bottom line is you need to beat Yamaha and Korg. Even a slight edge will do it. The fact that the marketing is poor will sway a lot of users just because you guys are SLIGHTLY better and cheaper. You don't have to be MUCH better, just sLIGHTLY.

An example to give SLIGHT advantage:
-Match the specs of PSR2100 but add longer 76 keys. Like CASIO WK series did but their sounds are awful. And if your prices are similar to PSR2100, I WILL JUMP BOAT AND GET THE KETRON instead.

OR just match PSR2100 and provide a louder speaker (like CASIO WK series).

OR just create a lowend keybd like CASIO WK (below $500) series and put expansion slots to add stuff to make it match the high end arrangers.

CASIO WK series is only like $200-300 for a 76 keys board. If you just replace that internally with a PSR2100 keyboard, I will dump the PSR and get that one instead in a heartbeat !!!

I REALLY don't think it's that hard. The product will sell itself. At least in this forum. I will recommend it to all my friends.

An excellent post Lukitoh.
Put me down also for a 76 note resonably priced keyboard.
Starkeeper

[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 09-26-2003).]

PSR2000/PSR2100 is ALMOST an ideal keyboard. It just lacks the following:

-The default registration should revert to the last setting !
-Vocal harmonizer can be improved, not sure how since I am not an expert. But I don't sound like a choir when I sing thru it no matter what adjustment. It still sounds weird and robotic. Make it simple but sound like a choir right out the box. The mic settings is great though. It will be great if you can save the VH and mic settings as part of the registration
-Also, maintain the voices categories in a registration memory. For example, for the RH voice keep the piano settings at grand piano, brass at pop brass, strings at slow strings, etc for a given registration setting. So when I press that registration button and press the piano button I know I am going to get grand and when I press the brass I know I will get pop brass, etc.
-Recording: should have an easy record function like some of the low end psr line of the past. Just press record and record away all the tracks (RH, LH and rythms) and press stop to stop. PSR2000 is a bit more complex.

-Han

Hello AJ:
I am VERY happy with my SD1, after 2 years I still find it interesting....I have collected over 10,500 styles/patterns, converted from different brands, songs, etc....excelent tech & upgrade support, so is great!!.
My wish list is:
Faster internal processor, more polyphony, larger & Color LCD screen( perhaps tilt too), USB port for easier/faster management of HD, Smart media port/CD burner... perhaps some color coded buttons for certain areas and or lighted, video/DVD Tutorials (examples how to make wav sync in SMF,like some songs from Manuel Artero's from Spain ). Also perhaps to make a deal with EMC for a "bundle" package for Ketron buyers....

Thanks, I know you DO listen.

Also, IMITATE (COPY if you can) the PSR layout. It is sooo easy and intuitive to use. All the buttons are at the right place.

hi all,a couple of days ago we was talking about yamaha not giving the people what they want, and now that ketron has put this question up it shows that ketron are prepared to listen,and its the low sales what cause this,i like their approach ,because instead of puting into keyboards what they want us to have,now they are asking,nice work,mike

Hi AJ:

In addition to concuring with the other comments already given:

Ketron sounds appear (to me) to possess a MUFFLED (covered?) sound quality as well as having an overly emphasized bass. Though this creates an initially impressive dynamic 'in your face' impact, I personally find this to quickly become fatiguing to my ears. I prefer a clean & less 'bass hyped' (more natural?) sound quality that I feel the Tyros & PSR2100 offers. If Ketron could do this, I would definitely reconsider purchasing a Ketron board in the near future, as I was impressed with Ketron's willingness & success at implementing my request for jazz (rootless chord) recongition on the SD1.

Scott

AJ,

Now that you have asked, here is what I would expect in the top of the line keyboard:
1. Loads of polyphony - 256 voices would be about right (especially, since Ketron allows us to layer up to 4 voices per program), good allocation to avoid sound drop-outs
2. Eliminate floppy drive in favor of a memory card (allow two slots), do not hamstring them with some artificial limitations of maximum size. This is not instead of the hard disk, which should also be available as an option - this way you do not have built-in obsolescence of a 6 GB disk, which was probably a big disk when the SD1 was designed, but now it would seem downright puny.
3. Allow MP3 playback capability - many live performers would use it for background music between the sets
4. Keep the SD1 form factor, but add speakers, even if small 20 Watt per side - Korg could do it, so can you. Better still, include speakers which can be removed, with the grille openings covered by solid covers, so that people who want to save weight, or create a seemingly more "professional" appearence can have it their way, while Uncle Dave and I can have our speakers in.
5. Navigation - SD1 with a bigger screen, preferrably plasma, or another light-emitting technology, which allows visibility in the ambient light. Color is optional - I don't think it adds much to the usability. What is important is display density - paging should be reduced to a minimum, and only used during the setup. In performance mode, I should be able to select what I need with one (or max two) button click - sounds from the list of one touch buttons, styles (bank/style - without paging). If you need to have 20 selection buttons beside the screen, then that is what must be done.
The selection buttons themselves should be not on the sides of the screen, requiring a reach or using right/left hand, but below the screen (like on Roland Fantom), where they can be reached with either hand. This will probably call for a short and wide screen.
6. Sounds and styles - I think that stock Ketron sounds and styles are fine (quite good for the most part), but you are never going to please everybody. Hence to be ahead of the market, you must have expandable/modifiable contents of sound and style storage memory: if someone does not like your, say, piano sound, they can add their own (or replace yours). I think, a better choice would be to have a fixed sound and style set, but allow users to install reasonable amounts (256 MB or more) of sample memory, which can load industry-standard sample formats. To me creating samples is secondary - I buy an arranger keyboard to get me playing quicker, not tinker with the sounds, and sampling process can be very time consuming. But if I wanted to purchase a CD with sounds which to me sound exceptional, having the right amount of battery-backed/flash sample memory would be absolutely invaluable. Another option is to allow streaming from Disk or Flash media - here is where having two card slots would come handy. The instrument should also allow configurable tone maps, to map loaded tones into, say, XG or GM soundsets.
7. Connectivity - I think USB 2.0 would be adequate to allow multi-channel digital audio to be sent to the computer. Firewire is another option, though fewer computers come with Firewire ports, while virutally all new PCs have USB 2.0. Also, in addition to the USB 2.0 slave port, provide a USB master port, to allow connection of external QWERTY keyboard for data entry or storage device (CD or HD) for backups and loading. If you want to really outdo them all, provide drivers for various fader control surfaces, which would give slider control to the mixer and sound synthesis sections, and who knows what else.
8. I know this is not traditionally Ketron thing, but the multi-pads would be very helpful for most of us who want to introduce variability to our playing with the otherwise canned styles. If you want to one-up Yamaha, allow playing back audio segments (from the memory card or disk), and not just MIDI snippets.
9. Controls - the appearence of the front panel gives all the Ketron instruments an outdated look. The master volume slider is what, 40 MM long? Look at all the competitors, the sliders appear much longer, giving the impression of giving better control to the user. The Ketron is the only major brand which does not provide an encoder wheel for tempo control (in addition to the buttons), and other data entry. The page back and forward buttons (if still required) should be located next to the screen. The multiplexed use of buttons should be eliminated/reduced - I should be able to press the button sequence without having to look at the screen for the current state of the system, the same way I don't need to look at the black and white keys when I play. The vocal harmonizer should also have dedicated controls.

This is not an all-inclusive list, but this is what I'd pay my $3000+ for.

I think that the experiments with the PC-based arrangers, such as the ones that Frank Rosenthal is doing, are heralding the way of the future. However, I think that it is still possible to build a dedicated instrument that can be sold for a competitive price, and hopefully, that is the goal of your company.

Regards,
Alex

Hi,

Personally, I would like to see things like this in a new Ketron:

-Big color screen (Hi-Res)
-Much more WaveROM (at least 96 MB, preferably the double).
-More Sample RAM
-Much Poly (at least 128-256 notes)
-Joystick instead of wheels
-USB 2.0 connection
-Deep editable synth engine (So I can tweak those sounds hehe)
-Workstation features (Arpeggios, Phrases, drumloops, advanced sequencer)
-Support for many sample formats (Including PC formats like soundfonts/gigasampler).
-MP3 (pro) playback
-Optional CD/DVD/CDRW drive
- 3 versions: 61 keys with speakers, and 76 & 88 keys without.
-Style import tool, to load Roland/Yamaha/Korg/Gem styles
-Expansion slots: Polyphony expansion, Sound and style expansion.

I think that about covers it LOL, if Ketron would create something like that it would be way cool!.
So AJ, when is the next Ketron arranger gonna showup ??? , I was kinda intrested in the SD1, but it is already 2 years old, and I prefer something newer.
Thanx for asking us, way 2 go AJ!

Greetz ,
Marcel




[This message has been edited by Wazza (edited 09-26-2003).]

AJ -

I think within The Pro's response lies the answer. He's been around a long time and involved with keyboards for many years. He plays professionally and knows what he is doing. He's familiar with the big brands and knows intricate details about the differences between a Tyros MegaVoice and a 9000 Pro sample.

And he refers to your company as KEYtron. This is in NO way a knock on the Pro. It goes to show you that here in the states we know extremely little about Ketron. We've heard the name, the same as we've heard about the Kia Sophia automobile, but that's about it. We don't know anything about the company and aren't really interested in finding more out because you have so little prescence.

I bought a Ketron because it is the DeFacto standard for accordionists. It's modular and is perfect for playing the accordion. I would never have purchased a Ketron keyboard. I'd go with Yamaha because of the ubiquity of Yamaha outlets, service centers, support groups, and parts. I might go with a Korg because I do know that name. Ketron? No way.

I have been trying to get an answer to a very rudimentary problem with my Ketron that is actually causing my sound to suck. I had to work elaborate work-arounds to use my Millenium's accordion sounds rather than the Ketron's because I can't get bellow expression from the Ketron sounds. I finally gave up.

I bought a Yamaha AW16G DAW and have had EVERY question answered by user groups on the spot. You can't beat that kind of support.

By the way, I LOVE my XD3 and it has given me unlimited joy and people love listening to it. I'm glad I bought it but I'll be honest: If Yamaha had a module version of the 9000 or Tyros, I'd sell the Ketron and buy the Yamaha in a heartbeat. My Ketron screen flickers from bright to faint periodically and every time it does it I dread the fact that the whole thing might die. I can't imagine trying to get it repaired.

Thanks.

Tommy

Just some personal remarks :

The SD1 is much heavier than e.g. the Tyros because of the 'semi-weighted' keys. Every single key has a metal part in it. This creates the great keyboard'feel'.

Tommy :
Almost all displays cause the problems you described, sooner or later. My SD1 display was replaced for free.... no questions about the SD1 age! (2.5 years)

It is mentioned by others already : Speed up the processor, harddisk and the FDD.

Perhaps the switches/buttons need some improvement in size/color/quality/feel ?

An internal sequencer is not required.
Built in speakers not required.
CD-ROM /burner not required

Having a clock in the display would be nice (like WX'es have)
Stereo sampler & vocalizer are both a must.

Roel

Roel -

My XD3 is three months old!! I have a 7 year old Alesis SR-16 and its display is fine (I know, it's not lighted). I have countless other products with LCD/LED screens that don't exhibit this problem. I have the XD3 connected to a Furman Power Conditioner on a dedicated grounded outlet and still it flickers and darkens. I don't consider this normal behavior and have never felt that a company's good nature to fix something like this with no questions asked represents quality. I have a buddy who bought a new Ford F250 truck and has has the automatic transmission replaced THREE times under warranty for free. I'm sure he doesn't feel that his truck is now reliable.

That's how I feel about my Ketron. As long as it keeps working, great. But if that screen dies during a performance I'll never buy Ketron again.

Just my opinion.

Tommy

Tommy,
I'm sorry, but it looks you misunderstood me!
What I tried to say :
Many Ketron instuments with this type/brand of display show this flickering or black lines. You don't have to wait for a 'dead' display.... it can/should be replaced or fixed as soon as problems show up !

Roel

Sorry for the misunderstanding Roel! I thought it was weird that you would mean that all displays will have this kind of problem sooner or later! I should get mine replaced soon then, because the black lines are getting more and more frequent!

As an aside, is that something that you can send them and then they send you a new one and you install it? I'd sure hate to send this XD3 anywhere. I'd almost rather live with the problem if that's the case!

Once again, sorry for the misunderstanding and thanks for the heads-up!

Tommy

I'll have to agree with kbrkr. I like to play around with a keyboard before I decide to buy one, especially in SD-1 price range.

When I bought my PA-80 last year, I was very interested in buying a SD-1 but none of the local dealers carry this board. The specs on this board are awesome, it has every feature that I would like to have in a pro arranger board, but I didn't want to spend that much money on something that I have only seen in pictures on the net.

AJ,

And how did Korg manage to get PA80 in Sam Ash and Guitar Center? Yes. I saw them both there for considerable time and they are still there. How come?



[This message has been edited by sk880user (edited 09-26-2003).]

As you said, AJ, buttons in the correct place, i.e.: on the left side. Dealers that will stock a display model or two. Multipads would be nice.
DonM

Friends,

Keep this coming for I am collecting this ideas.

Something I would like to start work on RIGHT AWAY. I know we are all dotted around the place but would like to arrange for some workshops in certain areas here in the US once I get confirmation from above.

The proposed plan will be once we have a general idea of where you are located, we'll try and come to you to do some demonstrations and allow you try out the keyboard so please try and give us an idea of where you are. I know e.g within the DC/VA/MD/PA areas, we can consider Washington Music (Wheaton-MD) and Keyboard City (Baltimore-MD), Centrioli's Music (Philadelphia-PA)... or maybe rather than using the actual stores, rent lobbies in hotels in these cities.

I need to get a list of where you are and if we agree on most popular areas and you do not mind driving say 3 hrs for this demonstration (as might be the case in some situations), we will comence the workshops as soon as possible within the most Arranger/Forum pupular areas. This should at least allow most of you to arrange with others and maybe give you a chance at LISTENING and TRYING OUT the Ketron SD1Plus, XD9 and other Ketron products.

Once the information with regards to location has been collected and we have a 'green light', I will then let you know the dates for each workshop (once I've got confirmation from above as well).

From what I am gathering so far, here is what we need to work on (in order of priority):

* Availability of product/knowing KETRON (at least to know what it's about, hearing and try outs ...)[Work in progress via workshop].
* Dealership and distribution (for later try-outs and purchases).
* Future product design, content (working on this per your request abvoe).

Please, do try and be considerate that these workshops may not fall as close to you as you would like ... but it is a start and we can only get better in time.

While keeping the comments, please start listing preferential locations (States, cities & maybe locations in those cities) for these workshops).

Thanks,

AJ


[This message has been edited by Ketron_AJ (edited 09-28-2003).]

AJ,

Although I don't know much about Ketron products I applaud you for your dedication and unyielding hard work getting your keyboards out there and improving upon your exposure. I wish you much luck and success.

I'm in the southern New York/Northern New Jersey market if you are ever in the area. Philadelphia is going to be over 4 hours for me so I'm not THAT interested in seeing a Ketron product.

I do have a BIG suggestion for you. Since most of us "Keyboard Geeks" are also Internet Surfers, I think you can do a much better job of putting your website together to expose the Ketron line of products. (I'm a web design by trade so I know what I'm talking about. If you want to talk to me about this send me a note).

One of the key elements I used when purchasing my Yamaha Tyros was seeing so many video's, Demo's, and listening to MP3's and reading the documentation all ON-LINE without leaving my livingroom/office.

In my experience, Once I check out the initial merits of the board's features I make up my mind about 80-90% that I want it just by reviewing it's features, hearing it's demo's and seeing the videos. The final 20-10% of my decision is made actually playing the board and that will either put me over the top or make me walk away.

Things I look for when playing a board are in order of importance; Key feel, ergonomics, visual displays, Operating system, and re-affirmation of the sound demo's which I already listend to on-line.

I hope this helps give you some insight into my Keyboard consumerism habits.

Al

[This message has been edited by kbrkr (edited 09-28-2003).]

I live in Queen Creek, Arizona. I would love to be able to come to your workshop. I know there are a lot of keyboard players in Arizona. How about Phoenix? Let me know if, when, and where. Thanks.

AJ...

The workshop idea is a good one... it will definitely be well received and should be a win-win for both keyboard players and Ketron.

I am in the Cleveland, Ohio area... where there are loads of keyboard players of all levels. Certainly an appropriate location for a Ketron workshop. There is essentially no Ketron exposure anywhere near the "home of rock and roll". I now own an SD1, but my exposure to Ketron was almost by accident. (I had found that an ebay XD9 seller lived only 10 away, checked it out, purchased it, upgraded to SD1.)

I agree with many of the "complaint list" items, but the one that's been bothering me most lately is the button layout. "Break" and "To End" are both very useful features... and it's so easy to hit the wrong button since they're so small and so close. "To End" should be grouped with intros/endings and out of the way (above display?).

Good luck with the workshop... great idea. And bring it to northern Ohio! We have Guitar Center, Sam Ash, and Lentines. Keep us posted.

BTW, another idea that I'm SURE would be well received and appreceated, is a comprehensive/in depth "How To" video for the SD1.

Thanks,
Glenn

[This message has been edited by GlennT (edited 09-28-2003).]

For me it has to have to sounds/voices of the pro workstations like the motifs and tritons on an arranger keyboard. Also, to me the keyboard has to look sleek and sexy, something between the look of the motif and tyros. For a dream keyboard like this, I would spend any kind of money to purchase one no matter how long it takes to get one! For example of my dream KB would be the look of the MotifES with combinations of voices from the ES and the korg triton. This is only in my opinon that would make me purchase a KB with whatever the cost is!

Johnny

Which One of these keyboards would you like to buy if price is not the matter??
psr2100
tyros
genesys pro
sd1
Looking forward for the replies
K

None of the above ....
Maybe the PA1x if it plays and feels right in my hands..

AJ

Here in Phoenix we are fortunate to have Synthony Music www.synthony.com and they do have Ketron products on display, along with most other high-end keyboards (No Genesys, though). One of their staff is the very knowledgeable Manuel Dorantes, who is also a performer, and a member of this forum.

Wow - talk about apples, oranges, pears and lemons ! (no particular order!)
That list as way to diverse to equate them all to a similar value regarding price.
Size, weight, speakers and navigation are all far more important to buyers like me than money is.

To me, styles that sound so authentic that people would think they were real session players. And, for recording purposes, individual outputs for each part in the auto-accompaniment.

AJ,

excellent work. I like your ideas.

AJ,

Actually I have SD-1 and 9000Pro, and both keyboards are fantastic.

In my opinion, the best world keyboard is the one I can afford for it, but:

-in SD-1 you navigate with compass, in the 9000Pro with GPS.
-The screen letters and SD-1´s buttons are very small. Lay-out could be improved to make it easy to locate the functios more quickly.
-SD-1´s polyphony restricts some combinations with a lot of timbres.
-The SD-1´s keyboard mechanism is less precise and noiser than the 9000Pro.
-The functions that require hard drive use are easier and fast in SD-1.
-The function aftertouch is more programmable in SD-1.

I enjoy both. (Untill Ferrari has their problems)

Armando

------

Hi,
1.) MUCH BIGGER COLOUR SCREEN
2.) CASIO MZ-2000 types HW SLIDERS 8 or 16
right below screen
3.) UP/DOWN - PROGRAMMABLE ARPEGGIATOR
4.) PAUSE PUTTON FOR THOSE BACKING MIDI SEQUENCES - other than that BREAK because thereafter midi file starts from the very beginning when continueing
5.) MUCH, MUCH MORE SAMPLING RAM => AT LEAST
64 OR 128 MB !!!
6.) TRUE 44.1 MHz SAMPLING RATE
7.) GOOD STEREO AMPLIFIED INSIDE - INCLUDED
8.) SOME 20 GB HD + CD-R/RW DRIVE + MP3 SUPPORT => ala Genesys Pro
9.) + SOME OTHER THINGYS WHICH WAS ASKED HERE DURING 1 - 1,5 YEAR !

THANK YOU.

-----

Hi,
Damn, I forgot that polyphny thing all. Lets say, that at least 128 TUE HARDWARE voices MIN., but better if MORE. Like 160, etc...

I need Sliders for the drums, Acc1,2 and 3 the bass the main and the sub.

I need a super sequencer that's at least as easy as the i30.

I love the touch screen. Very easy to sequence, name files and manuver for the programs and styles that I can't remember which buttons push.

I like the on board speakers for playing around the house. Not for playing live.

Sounds are important.

I like the EC5 foot pedal for the i30 with 5 different pedals to set for just about everything the i30 can do.

Ketron Keyboards have great sounds and features but they are unreliable because of all the bugs and freezes and we all agree that no one is willing to put up with problems while performing.

AJ,

Are you considering a workshop here in Mexico?
In my city we could join about 15 people (GUADALAJARA). The local Ketron dealer (that you met at NAMM) is doing a really grat job and giving a GREAT service.

Best regards,
Guillermo.

I have spoken on the phone several times with Vince Ramos, the Ketron rep in Houston. He has promised to bring a keyboard for me to try. If I like it, I could easily arrange to set up a dealer here. So far, after several months, we haven't been able to get together.
DonM

Asafar,

That is quite a sweeping generalization about Ketron products reliability. I have used mine trouble free for over three years. There were a few people that had some problems with their Ketron products but there were also people that had trouble with their Yamahas. Most of the problems to which you are referring were fixed years ago before Yamaha even introduced the PSR2000. Someone on the forum went over two months waiting for a part for their Yamaha. Someone else finally made the dealer take his Yamaha back it was so much trouble. Does that make all Yamahas unreliable? Does that mean Yamaha service is poor?

After monitoring this forum for years it appears that the most reliable products are Korgs,Technics and Bontempies.

Tom

[This message has been edited by Tom Cavanaugh (edited 10-03-2003).]

I agree Tom. . Maybe for you it is true Asafar, but I doubt very seriously that "everyone" agrees. I don't think generalizations like that are particularly helpful to those who may be reading heren and don't know a lot about this stuff.

I am the guy who waited 2+ months for a part from Yamaha( twice on different occasions for 2 different boards ) and I also returned my very buggy PSR2000 after 2+ months when no fix was in sight. I replaced my original 2000 with a Yamaha Motif that was absolutely bug free. A year + later I got a new 2000 and there isn't a bug in it that I can find. So even though I had my problems with a couple of Yamaha boards I had, I can't say that all Yamaha products are bad, and although my experience with their service department hasn't been very good, others have had good experiences with them.

Hmm Tom, my PA80 has been as reliable as can be but... korg surely isn't immune either. I had one of the earliest Korg M-1s out there, with the notorious eprom that always seemed to go bad, and to put it very mildly... Korg service was not very good either. They fixed the problem in later releases but never really fixed mine... They just replaced the eprom .. and of course after a couple of years went by and it went bad again.. they wanted an "arm and a leg" to fix it..

Hey Yamaha finally responded to my emails and contacted me about the part for my YST50's... a month later ..lol

AJ ( Bluezplayer )

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 10-03-2003).]

It would be hard to convince me of Ketron's reliability.

I've had mine for around 4 months and already the screen is flickering and going blakc to the point that I am scared to use it live, and for some unknown reason, all of a sudden the bass lines will DROP OUT completely of a style and a reboot is the only solution. This last problem has started to manifest itself in the past two weeks. It's getting more common, to the degree that about once every other hour-long session of practice it will happen.

I'm scared to death to use the thing live and always bring my 10-year old, VERY trustworthy Alesis SR-16 drum machine along as a backup. The first time I am forced to use it at a gig will be the day I put my XD3 up for sale.

Like you said though, you have used your Ketron for 3 years without a problem. I have used mine for four months (bought it brand new from George Kaye!) and have run into problems.

Just my opinion and my experience.

Tommy

PS> Yamaha probably sells 100x more keyboards (probably many more than that) than Ketron so to say that a couple people complained about Yamahas and a couple people complained about Ketrons on a BBS aren't really comparable.

I used Tom's X1 for close to a year before he bought from me. It had a quirk or two in the effects that bothered me, but it wasn't a voice that he used. Other than that, no problems with that particular Ketron for about 4 years.
DonM

ive had my x1 for about 4 years now, and apart from the antics i had for the first 2 days, i have not had a problem since.

the only thing i will say, is that sometimes when playing different midi files, various tracks "lock" into VOCAL01 for some reason, most of the time its track 16 but sometimes tracks 5 does it. To get out of this, i genrally have to reset the kb, as just simply selecting another midifile does not cure it. Strange....

Hey Tommy ,

What operating OS are you using with your SD1?

Have you done any upgrades or downgrades with the OS ?

Curios ....

Guys I am sorry but i am not hitting on Ketron or trying to give them a bad name.
I love there products and had the Sd1/X4 and VEGA and there is a big number of people that has problems with there X1 and VEGA and several times I had to open my VEGA and fix that screen problem by adjusting the plastic voltage screw.
Any time I tried to work on the user DrumKits it freezes and this is with the latest OS.
And I am not saying that all those other companies have perfect arrangers I am just posting to let AJ know what they need to do to make there great products reliable for people to use.

I was in the store trying out the ketron xd-9 and really liked it and would've bought it on the spot if it wasn't for one (stupid) thing. there was no dial for +/- Tempo, which I use during live gigs.

It really bothered me that I had to settle for the Korg PA-80.

Mike

Brooklyn, NY

P.S. Ketron is carried in Brooklyn by Maggio music. www.maggiomusic.net

To be honest I don't have that much time, but today An X1 came in my hands because a guy was having trouble with so he brought to me to fix the problem. I am a Genesys owner , so I will compare with that, I have to be honest with you I spent 3 hours listinig to what this keyboard had to offer cause I heard a lot about Ketron but never heard on. There are some good sounds in it but nothing to do with Gen I wouldn't even consider it a a contender it is so slow, not user friendly at all and the display orginisation is very unprofessional.
I like some of the styles though, I played some midi files and they sounded terreble,
now I know how much advanced are GENERAL MUSIC in this High End Dipartment, the operating system of ketron is like when we use to use the AMIGA it took me way back in time. Today I appreciated more the Genesys, I still have one more goal and that is to Compare Gen with the Tyros I haven't had the oppotunaty to have one in my hands.

This is no offence to nobody who own a Ketron, I am expressing my opinion. I am a pro in this line and when I am working I always go for the best tools, and ketron sure wont be one, It needs to be improved in all departments.

My Opinion to what I heard today.

Friends,

OK, we have scheduled the first KETRON clinic in Miami FL next month. Pls. follow with details at this link:
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum22/HTML/000477.html

Thanks,

AJ

Hello gang, long time no see;

Yeah, I'm still alive and kickin' (but the leg won't go as high as it used to).

It's funny to hear all of you saying what I posted 2 years ago about the SD-1 (even before it was publically released). At that time, I said that I would not even consider a keyboard with only 64-note polyphony and just one national service center and no local representation.

Ketron has to spend money to make money, and that means setting up shop in a few major cities. Did you know that over 90% of all of products manufactured in America flow out of just 10 U.S. cities? Well, it's true. If Ketron would set up just 10 stores in the U.S., they would hit every major market.

What would it take for me to buy a Ketron keyboard? Well, I'm not asking for the world, I just want a keyboard that makes me sound as good as Uncle Dave. (There you go Dave, and you thought I never said anything nice). BTW, I listened to your new song on Don Mason's site - it's a KEEPER. Nice work.

Regards to all,
Steve


[This message has been edited by Stevizard (edited 10-11-2003).]

Topics that will be covered include:

* What makes these products unique to products in the market today (and why you would want to consider Ketron products).
* Using the products for live performances, studio recordings ... etc.
* Expanding your current/existing gear with a Ketron product suitable for your needs.

More ideas are welcomed.

Thanks,

AJ

... Miami (FL).

We have scheduled a workshop for Ketron products in Miami FL. This workshop will indeed cover a lot of grounds but is designed specifically for current non Ketron users since we will focus on what Ketron has that we believe is not available on other equivalent products.

Ofcourse we will be able to answer some questions at the end (from anyone) and remember - all are invited so do not miss this great oppertunity!!

Location: Court Yard (by Mariott. 5001 North Federal Highway, Fort Lardale, FL (954-771-8100) ).

Time: Nov 11th, 2003 from 8am-8pm (actual workshop block hours will be determined at a later date).

Thanks,

AJ

I know Shreveport is out of the question, but how about Dallas or Houston? Little Rock? Baton Rouge? New Orleans?
DonM

DonM.

That for Houston TX is in the works and will be disclosed once we have the ball on the role. We are working with the dealers and others in the TX area to come up with something interesting.

Thanks,

AJ

To AJ,

I am hoping that Ketron will add a couple of USB ports to the keyboard. This will be fantastic for backing up tons of midi files on an external disk drive. A flash drive can also be plugged in for a quick program. A CD-RW drive would also be a good addition.

Thanks
MM

------------------

AJ,

What is Ketrons approach to upgrading their SD-1 or maybe some new Ketron models versus the new KB's eg: Tyros, Pax1pro etc coming on the market...?

Dedicated effects busses for:

1-Drums
2-Bass
3-Other backings (separate inserts for a Guitar and a Synth)
4-Lead sound
Multiple tracks patchable to the buses, like TRITON or FantomS, not like YAMAHAs.

and then Two ambience effects, i.e., Reverb and Delay/Chorus.
-Overall EQ/Compressor.

EQ for each track


---
Ethnic sounds and percussion
---
POWERFUL Sequencer,
-ability to loop each track independently
-ability to change tracks while recording, like in Roland XPs and FantomS
-Two MIDI outs/INs
-Nice MIDI mixer and editor, like in FantomS
---
Sampler that's compatible with SoundFont.
---
Styles with 3 drum tracks
---
Groove function like PSR 740
---
Export Each track as Wav file
---
Ability to use ACID loops in style tracks.
---
32 MB FLASH RAM for samples.

[This message has been edited by Shakil (edited 11-02-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Shakil (edited 11-02-2003).]

Shakil....are these your wish list items? or do you know that Ketron will impliment some of these features in upcoming units?

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-01-2003).]

I look forward to seeing a demonstration / clinic in the New York or Philly area AJ. Once and for all I can then finally lay eyes and ears on a ketron and see what it is all about. I definitely plan on being there when it happens.

AJ

I live in Indianapolis. I would like to try before I buy. Where can I do this? Chicago is only 2.5 hours away. Any up there to play with?

Dnj:
That's my wishlist, IF Ketron would do all those things, I will consider buying it.

AJ..I'm a Current SD-1 Owner for the last year and half...I've Tried others Including the Tyros, But the Ketron Still is Tops in Quality Sounds, Styles, and Professional Keys....Just a very Alive, Professional Playable Keyboard.It Looks Professional,No fancy Toyish additions,Built very well...I really like what Keytron is doing, asking us,the users and Interested people what is needed to make Improvements, etc...These are some of my suggestions:Live use 8 Sliders( such as Korg has Installed in the New Pro Coming) For live Arranger Style Changes, Etc...These also could serve as Pallette sliders for the Tones...and Drawbars for Organ Tones...We need to be able to Ajust the Upper tone and second tone up and down live. Examaple:Piano and Strings Quickly and Smoothly....Maybe Enlarge the Buttons(No Christmas Lights Please)...Maybe Set the Screen in a slight angle towards the player(It does not need to Pop up, etc)Keep the Professional Appearance and Quality Construction.Design Changes are fine though! Increased Polophony is always welcomed...Maybe a Real nice Warm Stereo Grand Piano added for Solo Piano Work,(Besides the Grand Piano used now) It's a Excellent Piano sound...It could be Triple Strike Sampled like the Yamaha P-250 Professional Stage Piano....That would Super Nice!!!!Hint!!!!.I believe the Biggest attraction to any keyboard is the Quality of the Pianos...Added Professional Orchestral Sounds is welcomed...More Electric Pianos...Maybe even Expansion Board Capabilities such as the 9000 Pro...No onboard Speakers please....Keep the Weight in line or, add on speakers like the Tyros for people who prefer them...Adding Sampler Capacity may be a Excellent Addition...Please don't add uneeded things that will put the Price out of reach....You have a Nice Keyboard Package now Priced Fair...I believe Keytron is Serious about Building the Best Keyboards Possible....Stay with what you have been doing, Commitment towards Quality and Performance, Improvement and the Most Important the Consumer...By the Way...Whens the New Keyboard going to be Available????I'm ready to Buy!!!!!!!!

Houston sounds good. Just remember that a few of us pros will be coming 200 miles, so make it on a Sunday or Monday if possible!
DonM

AJ, I am a current Vega owner, and I also own a Yamaha DX7, and future Korg Prophecy also... But I would like to make a statement on general features that should be expandable and add ons and future expectations/suggestions...

Well, I dont expect the keyboards to be perfect, Since ketron doesnt have such a large name as say Yamaha or Korg, yet I think that what was on the X1 was just great. The keys are very nice, not to mention so is the sampling option... Also Please understand, that many many people get frustration with that fact that with the vega, you cannot compile your own sounds with the Flash card... Sometimes, you are stuck with sounds that you are never going to do, yet you buy the flash card because you want the best options for your keyboards. Rather than release flash cards, release sounds that one can put into the flash card manually. And customise it they way they would like... For example, i would seriously love to sample my VST synths and sounds, and use on my Vega... That would definitely make the Vega or any other keyboard much stronger... I also suggest More expansion room for Vega and higher future models... as 8mb does not compare to any competitors, such as Korg/Roland/Yamaha... For example, I bought the vega with the harddrive expecting to be able to save samples on there (which is my fault technically), use of the Harddrive for samples, or larger Ram upgrades would be nice, Even 32mb would be awesome... but with the money I spent on the vega I could have bought a Nice Triton (i spent $2,200 USD in the end)... Another option?, well, It wouldnt just be nice to edit sounds, but also to manually create sounds, in other words, Synthesize... I've heard beautiful sounds made through Frequency Modulation, and thats technology from the 80s I know because I like to program FM synthesis... But a nice Analog/Digital synthesizer inside the keyboard would truly put it ontop of Competition... I mean, if I had a moss board in my Vega, I wouldnt bother to get a Korg Prophecy I would also like to mention that, The Vega samples, they are truly great samples, yet there could still be a bit better work on Multisampling from this company,I truly love Ketron, but the fact that the limited expansion at the current moment, (at least with vega) I would say the only I am Satisfied, but not with the money i spent

AJ, now that this had been brought up again, here's something I'd suggest to Ketron and all makers of arranger keyboards. When creating preset styles (PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD UP ABOVE) spice up the bass lines more. I love arranger keyboards, but one of my biggest problems with them is the bass lines in the styles. I think the bass guitar along with the drums really carry a song, and styles with weak simple note riffs are always a DEAD GIVEAWAY that it's an arranger keyboard. I remember when I had the Casio MZ-2000 one style on that board got me going and that was the "Fast Big Band" The bass line in that style was AWSOME it really carried that style. I'd like to see more styles like this.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 02-03-2005).]

Dear Ketron AJ;

I have an idea, so that all individuals who are interested in the Ketron KBs can see, hear & undergo a tutuorial and Question & answer sessions. Why don't you do a real time interactive streaming conference on the internet. That way you can orchestrate the session at a location that best suites you, (all your technical reprasentative can be at one place verus having to travel). Individuals would not have to drive hours to see these demos, and you will be able to capture a much larger audience in one shot, compared to having to do numerous demos at different location. These streaming lectures are done all the time and are not difficult to set-up.

I agree that one won't get to actually use the keyboard, but this would be the first step for consumers to see whether they wish to pursue the Ketron option. As well as making it very convienient. You can see by the comments, peoples time are precious to them. Also, having busy schedules, people in this forum have expressed not wanting to be inconvenienced by having to drive for 2-3 hours for demo. So why not allow easy access via the computer method.

You could also have advanced tutorials for seasoned players who would have more extensive questions regarding the Ketrons capabilities.


Thanks
Regards;
SCP