Hi Frank,
I just had a quick peek at the Bandstand software. OK, it's GM but the blurb also said that it is a sampler?Unless I totally missed it, I didn't spot any mention of program / bank changes ?? (hopefully I'm wrong, and it's my eyesight going faulty. ).

What worries me a bit is, I vaguely remember my hardware samplers didn't support program changes, which made them useless for styles, the only thing I was ever able to use them for, was melody/lead voice.

Is that basically the same problem with some of your top quality softsynths like collosus, ie it can be used in a sequencer or as lead voice, but not in the style?

How does Bandstand differ?

best wishes
Rikki

Rikki, there are some indications that it will accept program change numbers. I have acquired Bandstand. It should arrive within the next 2 weeks or so. Here is a quote that vaguely suggests program changes:

"An Accomplished Player

Whether it's your own composition or an all-time classic, BANDSTAND injects just the right sound and the integrated MIDI file player delivers the performance of a lifetime every time. Adjusting the mix or replacing instruments is easy. High quality effects, a loop function and groove quantization allows a personal touch to be added – BANDSTAND will change the way sound modules and GM are perceived."

The fact that you can change instrumets once a midi file is loaded seems to me that the midi file included program numbers which you can change once you have called it up within Bandstand.....wishful thinking...oh, oh, oh...

But you are right many others have claimed to accept program change numbers and in the end could not......kontakt, Colossus, and more. It almost seems like the software business uses the same principles as normally found in the used car business....sad.

The other thing that I think is important is the ability to change out voices to voices/instruments of your choice. Bandstand makes no claims about this that I can see......could be sad.

Nonetheless it is all so exciting.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-08-2005).]

Thanks for the info Frank. Assuming that the sounds are top notch ( no reason to think they won't be ) the single deciding factor for me purchasing it is whether Bandstand can accept program changes or not.

Unfortunately, as you and Rikki pointed out, it has also been my experience that others have claimed their modules / samplers would accept program and bank changes when in reality for the most part they didn't.

Hypersonic is the first that comes to mind. All the updates and supposed fixes and it still doesn't work right. Plugsound made no such claims, and in fact let the buyer know upfront that their modules could not read program changes, so at least I knew going in that they would function strictly as lead voices and studio modules. If Bandstand cannot accurately read program changes, while I'm sure it will be a great sounding module, having the PS series, I probably have enough good sounds already and won't need it.

Not sure what the big deal for these developers is about programming in the ability to accept bank and program changes, but then again I'm not a programmer. I have quite a few vsti's that can do this quite well, including several freewares. Soundfont's do it flawlessly each and every time, but as you aptly stated before Frank, the technology is getting a bit long in the tooth at this point.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-08-2005).]

Bandstand is not a sampler - it's a sample-playback program.

It's scary really - I've done several Google searches and read every press release about Bandstand... nothing clearly says that it will accept program changes. There's lots about how easy it is to change sounds and setup your own presets but there's nothing clear on accepting program changes from MIDI files. Sorry Frank... you can change sounds within Colossus too once a MIDI file is loaded so that quote you gave could equally apply to Colossus, which doesn't accept program changes from MIDI files as you know. And Colossus uses a the same sample-playback engine as Bandstand. I'm very worried that Bandstand is just a baby Colossus but I hope otherwise.

NI released Bandstand on 11/7 but I've decided to wait until the retail shops get their copies (Nov 11 more or less) before ordering. NI's online shop is charging full list + tax + shipping which jacks the price up to around $240 whereas I've found it online for as little as $172 with no tax & free shipping. I can wait a few extra days for that kind of savings.

ESH & AJ, I will let you know how well Bandstand works with styles & midi files. If I run out of money buying all this stuff I will use some of Rikki's.....she has more then she can spend in another life time or two.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-08-2005).]

Thanks Esh,
I was a bit loose with the word "sampler" obviously it's not.

Hi Frank,
I've probably got enough for 3 lifetimes by now, since you stopped me replacing 2 to 3 keyboards every couple of years ( haahaa , I WISH ) hubby owes you big time.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[. If I run out of money buying all this stuff I will use some of Rikki's.....she has more then she can spend in another life time or two.



[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 11-08-2005).]

Thanks Dnj,
that's not the same link as I had,so I picked up a bit more info.

Frank
One bit of good news I noticed in DNJ's link is that it appears to work with a 512mb computer
( though bigger would obviously be better )
Didn't notice if I would need a second hard drive??

I may wait and see before deciding between plugsound & bandstand just in case bandstand does do program changes. Fingers crossed.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dnj:
[B]

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 11-08-2005).]

Hi Guys,
I tend to think the real problem is that all these software sample players etc cater to the sequencer based user. Sequencers can obviously cope without program changes. Not having used any of these software sample players, I can only assume you assign an instrument to each track ??
Majority of users of these sample players, would probably use them for recording purposes be it for midifiles, mp3's cd's whatever. There's probably no great urgency for these companies to incorporate program & bank changes into the program if they work as is, for the majority of users.
Let's face it, it's us realtime arranger /softsynth users that are the odd one's out.

Meanwhile at least we have the opportunity of having great Lead/Melody voices using these sample players.

best wishes
Rikki

Actually, M-Audio's Key Rig is made for live performance and it sounds pretty good. By using Forte' as a VST host you can use Key Rig for both your live keyboard sounds and for your arranger style accompaniment or MIDI files (you would use the freeware MIDI Yoke as a virtual midi cable to connect Forte' to OMB or a sequencer). I think we all share the belief that Bandstand has the potential to sound even better than Key Rig, but Key Rig ain't too bad.

Here's a link to Joe Maas' tutorial on using OMB with VST's: http://www.1manband.nl/tutorials1/vst.htm

BTW, I think Collosus can be used in Kontakt 2, which can respond to program changes.

Hi Esh,
I have forte/livesynth pro/midiyoke for my soundfont/omb setup or I use a usb audigy nx2. I haven't bought any of the more expensive sample based players mainly because I use piano sound for melody/lead
( I have a Yamaha CLP170 piano for that, and as a controller). I must admit Frank keeps whetting my apetite whith all these fancy sampled sounds.

I gather the M Audio doesn't respond to program changes either? or have I got that wrong.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Esh:
[B]

Clif, Yes Colossus & Kontakt do respond to program changes but to slow for live performances. In addition, you would need to raise another instance of kontakt if you require more than one drum kit....I think.

So yes there is hope. If Esh is right that Bandstand is a much smaller version of Colossus things may load quick enough for live performances....including situation where instruments are changed within say a style or midi file as it is playing.

My guess is we are very close to a very good outcome.

Garritan's GPO and Jazz & Big Band are of a size with DFD to fit totally into RAM. Program changes in Kontakt could work here as well. The conversion of Giga's GM500 to kontakt may also work.

Rikki, I think you should abandon all your friends and your Yamaha and replace it with NI's Akoustic Piano & and a 76 (or 88) note controller keyboard. You just can't lose. You will never look back. You will forever be happy. You will sit back in your music room and smile as the world passes you by and others keep buying hardware only to do it again in a short few months. Plus it sounds better than most other pianos found in workstations or arranger keyboards. Oh, if you buy kontakt 2 then you get with it a very good version of the Steinway Pianos....and there are so many other better alternatives.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-09-2005).]

Cliff: Colossus responds to your own program changes but not to GM midi file program changes. You can create your own program multi-patch setups and recall them but it takes too long for live use, as Frank said. And that's just to load the attack sample - the rest of the sound actually streams directly from disk. It can take up to a minute to load a multi-patch with all the sounds you normally need for a song. The goal is to find a quality GM-compatible softsynth that can respond quickly to program changes like hardware synths can... Bandstand has that potential even though it uses the same load-attack/stream-from-disk architecture as Colossus. We'll know for sure soon when Frank gets his copy of Bandstand.

Rikki: you and I are in the same situation... I'm primarily a pianist. I dislike the idea of having a controller that makes no sound of it's own but Frank is right - the piano sounds I get from Colossus are vastly superior to anything I've heard in any digital piano bar none. If the piano sound in Bandstand is comparable to the Steinway D in Colossus then it will be the centerpiece of my new all-softsynth live setup.

I don't own a copy of Key Rig yet but I intend to. I think it's cool and I can use it... I'll probably go ahead and order it today since Frank has volunteered to go out on the Bandstand limb for us. I honestly don't know if it'll respond to program changes from GM midi files quickly. It SHOULD. I think that a sequencer program is required to call up the program changes from Key Rig since I don't see a SMF player included. Unless someone who already knows can answer that, I'll volunteer to find out.

Edit: I found this additional market blurb from M-Audio about Key Rig:

"The GM-4 General MIDI Module delivers 128 GM instruments plus a great GM drum kit. It instantly plays GM-compatible standard MIDI files from host applications and provides an extremely easy way of sequencing additional backing tracks."

[This message has been edited by Esh (edited 11-09-2005).]

I have been using Key Rig for a few weeks now..
One of the things I like about the M-Audio program..it allows me to run all 4 modules at the same time, substituting a sound from the GM module with a sound from the Piano module, a organ from the organ module and a synth patch from the synrh module..to any channel within the GM module..
I have been able to play the other modules from a keyboard , but not the GM module sounds[yet]..I will check it out further on this issue..
Although the drum kit is nice ,I would have liked options for kits like the TR808 etc.

Overall I still like HyperCanvas better, but still would recommend KeyRig..

It is my guess that for things to work properly with large high quality samples all the GM instruments need to have the attack (first part of the sample) parts loaded into RAM. Once this is the case Kontakt or Bandstand could immediately respond to program changes. With Bandstand being something like 2GB in total it should be possible. It would still take about 30 seconds to get the rig loaded at startup.

Another workaround could be to load up only those instruments that you know you will use, e.g., all the acoustic instruments but none of the others like special effects/pads and so on. This means you need to get into the wavetable and create a new one. This can be done with Colossus and kontakt....I haven't tried this to see if it works.

The answer is blowing in the wind.

You can indeed play the GM module in KeyRig..

Fran: can you play SMF's using the GM module in Key Rig? Or have you tried something like OMB with it? If so, how did you "wire" it up and how does it sound?

I ordered Key Rig today, just for fun. It's a bargain considering how much something like B4 alone costs.

Jim in the GM mode I can play SMF's. JammerLive[arranger], and realtime from the keyboard.
All four modes can run at the same time, without too much CPU usage.

I use Forte as my host. Also MidiYoke connections..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 11-09-2005).]

Hi Fran,
so it does accept program changes in GM mode??

best wishes
rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fran Carango:
[B]

Esh, I know this has been noted by you, AJ and others that a viable alternative may be to use something like Bandstand for the Accompaniment and kontakt with higher quality samples for your lead or melody voices.

It takes about 30 seconds to load 8 high quality instruments in kontakt. The way I set things up is similar to what AJ has mentioned and that is, I will load 8 instruments suitable for a certain genre of music say Jazz as follows:

Channel 1 Jazz Organ
Channel 2 Flute
Channel 3 Trumpet/mute
Channel 4 Saxophone
Channel 5 Strings
Channel 6 Piano
Channel 7 Vibes
Channel 8 Jazz Guitar

You could then play a set of jazz pieces. If you next wish to play Latin you could then load 8 high quality instrument suitable for Latin. Switching between channels is quick and easy. It works for me.

If you use DFD then the RAM required is usually less than 1 GB. So there should be room enough for Bandstand in DFD.

It might work for me.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 11-10-2005).]

Rikki, yes it does...

Not sure what computer system you are using, but if you are not already, consider using a stripped Raid Array (Raid 0) for your hard disks, as this will almost half the time taken to read or Write to the Disk, thus allowing faster loading of sounds into Kontakt. (Should almost half)

Bill

I like working with my AJ2006 system enough now that I'm pretty sure that if Bandstand doesn't fit the bill that I'm going to bite the bullet and try to create an even better soundfont than SGM180.

I'm certain this will take a lot of work and quite some time but the one thing about Soundfonts is that it has been my experience that they accept bank and program changes flawlessly each and every time.

I'm not an expert, but I do have some experience with sound design and sampling, and I'm sure I'll acquire even more by doing this. I might even pick the brains of some of the SF2 player software developers, because if it turns out to be a really good soundfont, I'm sure it will only benefit them in the long run as well. I'd really like to sit down for a few hours with a Tim Conrardy, but that is probably asking a bit much and something I wouldn't expect to happen

I might even turn it into a very inexpensive commercial offering if it turns out really well, but even if I do, I'd still give it freely to my buddies here at the 'zone with the understanding that it isn't freeware to be shared.

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-10-2005).]

I agree absolutely that this IS the way
to go.

Thanks Fran.

best wishes
Rikki

Hi AJ,
I think I may have mentioned it before,
I'm actually going thru the process of pulling some of the gm/gs soundfonts apart.
Virtually putting together a patch library like we used to have with the synths.

Surprising what I'm finding. Whoever's put them together has used a mix of good & not so good fonts. I'm guessing they've chosen large samples for instruments that they use a lot, and fairly poor ones, probably just to fill up the gm bank. Suppose it's not worth having a 5mb bagpipe, if it's just chewing up space.

The largest font I've tried to load into my 512mb laptop using forte/livesynth pro
is 300mb. It struggles with that.
If I actually use the audigy nx 2 card, the largest font I can load is 145 mb's.
I'm looking at maybe expanding my memory.
Meanwhile my ideal font is probably going to have to be about 140mbs max.
I'll have to probably focus on some main instruments like drums , bass, piano , guitar, strings etc.

Personally I don't think I'd have the capability of starting from scratch ie sampling. Maybe converting wav files into fonts , might be an option, or from some other format.

I haven't had any problems with program & bank changes.

Personally, the fonts may be a bit long in the tooth, but I like the flexibility of them. As far as I can tell, there doesn't seem to be anything else quite like them?

I really think we should differentiate between, what can be used for styles, ie soundfonts, hypercanvas ??

and what can be used for lead/melody voices, as obviously there is a far greater choice of software available for lead voices.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bluezplayer:
[B]I

I agree Rikki. Although I will always be open to looking at new and even better sample sets and modules as they become available, I already have more quality lead voices than I'll probably ever need. Right now my focus is primarily to concentrate on improving backing voices.

I've given up on Hypercanvas and even Hypersonic. The former doesn't appeal to me very muchg soundwise, while the latter sounds decent, nothing special, but even with the updates still doesn't always recognize patch and bank changes. The only GM / XG modules other than soundfonts that seem to work all of the time without a hitch are Cakewalk's Tts-1, Yamaha's SYXG50 and Virtual Sound Canvas, but none of them appeal to me at all soundwise.

I would recommend more memory. I have 2.8 gigs in the laptop and 1.8 in the desktop system, and it does make quite a difference. I think I may add a bigger hard drive to the laptop though. The 180 mb SGM180 breezes along very easily in either system when I open it in Live Synth pro

If I do decide to go all out and make a soundfont, I'm going to start my soundfont one instrument at a time, using raw samples and / or recording new samples from some of my existing instruments. I don't know what the max capability of LSP is, but if it came down to it, and I had to, I'd simply split the instruments and make a couple soundfonts so all I'll have to do is open a couple of instances of LSP.

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-10-2005).]

Hi AJ,
don't know if you've come across this piece of software before? http://www.nikkoid.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97&Itemid=1

I downloaded the demo a while back, but I haven't tried it yet.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bluezplayer:
[B] IIf I do decide to go all out and make a soundfont, I'm going to start my soundfont one instrument at a time, using raw samples and / or recording new samples from some of my existing instruments.

Thanks Rikki. I'll give it a look. I have Cool Edit pro ( it's an older software.. I know ), but if Samplit can do the job better I'd certainly consider it.

AJ

A few thoughts on M-Audio Key Rig, which arrived yesterday and I've spent a good number of hours with now.

First and most important for me was the acoustic piano sounds are above average right out of the box and highly tweakable. It took me an hour of fiddling to come up with the right combinations between Natural Grand and Concert Grand using the sweepable EQ to cut a little midrange tone plus tweaking the reverb before I came up with something I really liked, but at least it was possible! It's not the best piano in my collection but it's in the top five and both my wife and I were impressed with the sound I finally came up with. I also came up with a nice piano + strings patch with strings coming from the GM module - more on that in a minute.

Other sounds out of the box were terrific: the Rhodes piano sound is one of the best emulations I've ever heard and is completely authentic. Wurli sound was equally good but I'm a Rhodes man so I was very pleased with that patch and couldn't stop playing it.

The polysynth module is fine but not especially noteworthy. I'm probably jaded from hearing too many polysynths lately.

The organ is killer and is right up there with NI's B4 IMHO. It beats B4 in one respect: the rotary simulation switch works like it should with my X-Station spring-loaded mod wheel... I bump it right and it speeds up, bump it left and it slows down. B4 requires me to hold that darn mod wheel to the right for fast speed: yuck. I'd buy Key Rig for the organ alone - it's that good.

The GM module is about average: not great and not terrible but I wouldn't use it. I can't seem to get any sequencer program to MIDI to it and I've tried several tricks including MIDI-OX but no dice. So I haven't heard any SMF's play on it but playing the individual sounds convinced me that it's no better than any old version of Roland VSC. In other words, it's not what we're looking for. It would benefit greatly from having it's own SMF player built-in.

Overall Key Rig is quite cool. I was able to play my backing MP3 files on Sound Forge and use Key Rig for the lead keyboard stuff and they sounded excellent together and didn't hog the CPU at all. Getting a quality piano/Rhodes/organ/synth rig in one economical package makes Key Rig a great buy.

Jim I agree with most of your views, maybe with the exception of M-Audio's organ module compared to B4..You have a designated controller for the leslie simulator[fast/slow]...I like to use the spacebar [laptop]for this , and B4 allows me to use the other soft keys to make changes live...I can not find any shortcuts with Key Rig's organ module..To me B4 still sounds better, but for the price of KeyRig....everyone should have it..

Jim have you tried muting parts in GM module and use the Piano, synth and organ modules in place..

I use Forte and MidiYoke with no problems...Sequence playback device is VanBasco..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 11-12-2005).]

That's saying alot... there's an new B4 ver now:
http://www.nativeinstruments.de/index.php?id=b4ii_us.

I have recently installed Sonar 5 and NI's B4 II on my flr2006 software arranger system. It will be hard to exceed the quality of the B4.....although on my system I have a bug...oh, oh, oh... On some presets my system goes into overdrive (as per my audio mixer)....but I hear no sound. Could be something to do with bats....utilizing frequencies outside of my hearing range. This will need a fix. The workaround is not to use these presets....not a big issue.

Frank, any significant improvement/difference in the B4II over the original B4?

Glenn

Glenn, yes there are improvements but not $99 worth. There are more adjustments you can make and more setups. They include emulations of more speaker cabinets, i.e., not just the Leslie Speakers. I would say there is a slight improvement in the quality of the sound and effects (chorus, distortion & reverb).

Plus there are some bugs as noted above. It shows up in my soundcard mixer window as peaking into the red and yet there is no sound at all coming from the speakers for some of the setups....needs to be fixed. I should be careful what I say. It could well be the combination of my equipment and software that's the real problem...we'll see.