I couldn’t help noticing the gasps of admiration about a cd writer in the new Genesis, and rumours of the possibility of one in the Yamaha 10000?

Am I alone in questioning the value of such an addition?

If used in packet writing mode to replace a hard disk, it will surely be much slower, because of spin up time, let alone the time taken to read the FAT if you have thousands of small files like patterns/registrations/midis in packet writing mode. Also what happens if the cd spins at 20 or 30x for a minute after you have loaded your file, while you are trying to play your mournful pianissimo intro…?

If it cannot replace the hard disk, it has to sit next to it… costs increase to Genesis level? Also it might add 6 inches to the length of a 76 key board. These are too big already maybe?

We are then left with audio cd creation. OK, most boards have a mic channel with reverb, dsp and maybe a harmoniser. But is this enough to get a good sounding result direct to cd? Surely you’ll want to stick your wave file in Sound Forge and do your compression, limiting and equalisation (let alone pitch correction) to get a master before burning? Without a hard disk you presumably need a large amount of buffer ram, as well as any burn-proof ram, so no chance to correct a mistake in real time – start again with a fresh cd!
If you want to edit it means making a re-writable then ripping it in the pc, editing, and then making your final cd - not using the writer in the keyboard! What a waste of time compared to getting the data on your pc hard disk in the first place.

Even if you have both hard disk and cd writer like the Genesis, surely you can never have the flexibility of editing on the board that is available on your pc in a bespoke program.

I just wonder about duplicating hardware on the board that many people may already have in their laptop, let alone their pc. (even add-on external usb writers are getting quite cheap).
I would much prefer a 44.1kHz output, ideally through usb like the Edirol UA gear. Then it is easy to master on your pc with no quality loss.
And if the interface was usb2, that would be fine for multi-track digital hard disk recording and ultra fast sample and large data retrieval (even multitrack 96kHz!).

It seems to me to be maybe a feature that will be sold to the man in the street as an instant karaoke cd type of gimmick, impressive in the shop, used a few times and then forgotten? And the manufacturers will have to play ‘follow the leader’ to appear hip and up to date?

I may be wrong, but I think rather than duplicating gear we already have in this way, the money would be better spent on a fast comms system to pc, and the remainder spent on wave rom and flash memory to get the best possible sound out of the board for the money and fill it with your own setups.

I suppose it all depends on whether you already have a pc and wave editor. I would have thought that the market these sort of boards were aimed at would already have pretty sophisticated clients in that respect
.

You are not alone in questioning the value of an on-board CDR. Road Warriors don't like the bulk and weight. But I think the Genesis makes sense as a compact all-in-one studio. The on-board disk can be used for harddisk recording and playback of samples and MIDI files and the CDR is used to get information efficiently into and out of the harddisk. I think the Genesis makes sense for some, but for me, I would go with Flash memory (internal and removable) all the way. (and forego harddisk recording)

absolutely, compact flash has the controller built in, difficult to snap in half, easy and quick to swap, and already in your camera or mp3 player. You can get a lot of sequencer or setup files on 64MB let alone 128 or 256.

Concerning the value of the cd-writer...

consider the following:


There are the following features that are related to cdr:

a) all factory styles and sounds are stored in flash. Those can be erased, replaced and restored. Clearly, you cannot restore them through the floppy disk and it is not wise to store them in the harddrive, what if the harddrive get erased. Also even if you are careful, what if you totally new sounds and styles? You are not going to transfer them through floppy disks. So clearly there must be another medium. Also, what if you want to backup some styles and sounds you have creatred on the keyboard and you want to transfer them to the computer?

b) One of the requested feature is record audio on harddisk or keyboard. This gives you the option of transfering audio quality tracks from keyboard to computer. This is very important and very convenient.

c) backing up the harddrive

Let us look at all possible imaginable posibilities:

1) floppy disk: what about backing up 4GIG harddrive?

2) FLASH cards: First they are very expensive, the capacity is not as much as one CD_R, you cannot have and purchase unlimited amount of those cards, you cannot use the computer with those.

3) JAZZ drives. Very good and very powerful. But Jazz disks are expensive compared to CDR (they can store more data... BUT FOR A PRICE).. not available on most computers.

4) SCSI. very good and very fast. The problem they are not available on most computers. Especially, SCSI drives DO NOT... and let me repeat DO NOT perform THAT MUCH higher than ATA/100 7200RPM and therefore, most DAWs built these days are ata/100 based and not scsi-based. also you lose other conveniences as well.

5) CDRs, cheap, available, flexible. The only problem I can think of it is does the built in CDR get affected by transporting the keyboard.


Finally, the CDR cannot be a replacement for the harddrive. We still need large harddrives (and we may still need a floppy disk drive for now). The harddrive is important for recording audio to the drive, for saving, sequencing and so on and so forth.

In conclusion, the CDR is not a nice option. It is a must in a very serious modern keyboard workstation.

Hi there,
With respect, I think you have missed the main point,

a, b and c)
That is exactly what I was describing with a usb comms link, backup to laptop, pc, and then cd from the pc or whatever, much cheaper, faster and more reliable. There is no reason to backup the keyboard hard drive from a keyboard cdrw - you are hardly likely to want to do this on a gig - plug it into your laptop/pc and use your existing equipment.

I have a usb2 external hard disk, this is faster than firewire, and could easily handle realtime 96kHz multitrack audio, as I mentioned, something your cd writer could not. The comms link would meet every one of your criteria, much cheaper and far faster than a cd writer built into the keyboard, without spending money duplicating equipment you already have. Backing up the data on hard drive is not an argument; you can have the data on keyboard hard drive, laptop hard drive, pc hard drive, and still make backup cds in the pc or laptop.

Likewise all of your other possibilities are taken care of by the same argument. My point was that if the money was spent instead on inbuilt flash memory, you could fill the board with your own setups, patterns and midis, easily having enough to satisfy the pros since this would be the equivalent of the combination of the presets and the programmables of today’s top models, and surely enough for a weeks playing, let alone a night. And with a link erase the entire keyboard of styles, setups and songs, and replace from your laptop or pc in seconds (but not on stage ). If you discount sampling, it is possible that a hard disk is not essential if you have enough flash, since the money saved would give much, much more flash memory; look how many manage with the tiny amount on the psr2000, how much better would 10 or 20 times as much flash be? This is money saved, spent on in-built flash.

A flash card slot (or three) would just be an inexpensive addition from the manufacturers point of view (since compact flash has the controller built in), and give the customer even more flexibility if he wishes.
You could have a couple of flash cards with hundreds if not thousands of songs for last minute requests, so you do not need to plug in the laptop.
You are wrong; you can use flash cards with a computer very easily and hot pluggable. I have a pcmcia adaptor for the laptop (cost $5) and a usb plug in for the pc or laptop (cost $25). I look on flashcards as replacements for floppy disks, not hard disks. I often use a flashcard to transfer hundreds of MB of data from laptop to laptop because it is so quick.

Obviously for sampling, you will need a keyboard hard disk to cater for the file sizes, but again all arguments for backup and transfer are catered for by a fast comms link to your existing equipment, far faster than cdrw. If you have a hard disk already in the keyboard, no-one is going to use the cd on a gig to load samples, you’ll have them all on the hard disk anyway.

You can’t seriously be saying in a) and b) that the preferred method of backup is to make a cd in the keyboard, transfer it to your pc, and then copy it to your pc hard disk, when you could plug a cable in and transfer the same data in a minute? This is possible as existing data transfer from hard disk to hard disk; if it was switchable to 44.1 kHz you could play your audio in as a wave file direct to Sound Forge or whatever with no quality loss whatever, without needing a hard disk in the keyboard, bringing this feature to a far lower price band than Genesys. And again, like the 9000 sampler, you will never have the editing available in the keyboard to a standard of depth and ease of use available from programs on your pc.

So my argument is basically why pay more and more, to duplicate equipment you already have, for features in the board that are nowhere near as easy to edit as your existing programs on the pc anyway? I just don’t see the point of paying twice for something that’s done much better on the laptop/pc with stuff you already have?

I agree it all depends whether you want an all in one box or not. I’m just wondering whether you could get the same sound quality of the Genesis for 2 or 3 grand, and still have all the features with your existing gear, and probably, particularly for making audio cds much easier to use and providing higher quality results?
Respect.

The GEM Genesys is a very well executed high-end arranger/recording studio. There is always a tradeoff between the convenience of an all-in-one system and the flexibility of a modular system--which is what technicsplayer prefers.

The modular approach provides power and flexibility, the all-in-one approach provides convenience and accountability (if something goes wrong, you know who to call).

The GEM Genesys is an excellent example of the all-in-one approach applied to an arranger/recording studio. There is no need to transfer files between it and a computer, and those that do not choose to use a computer for their music will find this attractive. Those that have a computer as the center of their music making will find much of the Genesys redundant and compromised. For those attracted to a more computer-centric approach, there are more cost-effective tools available.

For those who want the convenience of an all-in-one system, GEM has hit the mark. If I were to have only one piece of music gear (two with a microphone), I would get the GEM Genesys.

Sure, agree with everything except one thing, I do not necessarily prefer a modular approach, I like it all in one box, just don’t see the point of paying twice!

Personally I cannot see the market for a board of this type not having all the other equipment in the first place. But we shall see in the long run how successful it is at this price level

Very good ideas and suggestions. I missed the USB solution.

First of all, I agree that USB2 is preferred over USB or firewire. It is faster. It is fair to say that most computers have USB. But there are two problems:

1) ONLY newer computers have USB2.0... (made this year or so)
2) I recommend disabling USB in any DAW. So mine is disabled. This is very controversial and I think there is a work around for it.

Modular approach is basically buying separate SCSI (OR USB2 if it was available on the keyboard) external standalone cd-writer. In fact, we had this option with the WK/SK arranger. It came with scsi option. But I never purchased it. This standalone CD-writer must have a 700MEG internal buffer to receive data before burning it to CD. But I think as the original post said, you lose practical convenience and that is the reason I never purchased that SCSI option (I also hated the installation).

I looks like we may have a 'war' between firewire and usb2. I hope usb2 wins because it is faster, easily good enough for digital video, so digital audio is a breeze, and backwards compatible with the all the current usb1.1 equipment.

A card for your pc is cheap and only needs a spare slot. I got a usb2 pcmcia card for the laptops. More external soundcards and DAW are being made that use usb, so maybe this will something we will see more of in the future?

The advantage of an external usb soundcard is you take the a/d and d/a away from all the high freq digital crap inside the pc.
regards,

I don't think we need internal/built in CDR
neither, IMO I think if the keyboards were
made to be more compatable with the PC equipment,
such as cdr, jazz, smart cards, etc.etc.
via scsi/usb/usb2, in this way we could buy
what ever piece of equipment we want to connect
to the KB, at a reasonable price.
I would be happy if the KB Company's would
leave out the cdr & add more memory for styles,
custom voice, & such. Just my 2 cents worth.
Also leave the floppy disk in the KB's as I
think there is a need for them with KB's.
Enjoying the 9000 PRO
Denny