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#198394 - 03/24/05 07:08 AM Re: Copy of copyright materials!!!!
The Pro Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 1087
Loc: Atlanta, Georgia
Quote:
Originally posted by WDMcM:
Actually you could use a product by Moog called the PianoBar. MOOG Music PianoBar

This device sits at the back of the keys on any acoustic vertical or grand piano and generates MIDI note and velocity data. This data is then used by the PianoBar module to access the internal sounds and also to control external MIDI equipment.

What's another $1495.00 for the pleasure of playing a real piano while still being able to use an arranger keyboard or module?

Dave





Ha, ha... good reply and good thinking - except that the arranger hasn't been made that can follow a real pianist and probably never will be. Thanks for reminding me about the PianoBar though.
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Jim Eshleman

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#198395 - 03/24/05 07:14 AM Re: Copy of copyright materials!!!!
The Pro Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 1087
Loc: Atlanta, Georgia
One more thing needs to be added to this discussion: any "song" which does not include the melody is not copyrightable in the US. In fact, I can go right now a print out the chords to "As Time Goes By", with the song title printed boldly at the top, and sell them a dime a copy with no legal restrictions at all. Many websites offer such. So what's the big deal about styles or even midi files and copyrights? To my knowledge, if it doesn't include the melody it's mine and yours and everyone's to use freely. Not so?
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Jim Eshleman

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#198396 - 03/24/05 07:47 AM Re: Copy of copyright materials!!!!
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Quote:
Originally posted by The Pro:
One more thing needs to be added to this discussion: any "song" which does not include the melody is not copyrightable in the US. In fact, I can go right now a print out the chords to "As Time Goes By", with the song title printed boldly at the top, and sell them a dime a copy with no legal restrictions at all. Many websites offer such. So what's the big deal about styles or even midi files and copyrights? To my knowledge, if it doesn't include the melody it's mine and yours and everyone's to use freely. Not so?


Not really.
Wouldn’t it be the case that if you use a midi file or a style that uses or tries to use the same type of sounds and accompaniment as the original song, even though the style or midi song does not have a melody, it will be copyright infringement?

If I were to arrange a popular song today in to a midi file with out the melody and put it on the internet for sale, could I do so with out any legal implications?


Regarding styles, if the keyboard manufacturers can show that they have copyright to the styles, then I would think that they would have the right to prevent any modifications of the work. Don’t they have the right to control derivative works?
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TTG

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#198397 - 03/24/05 08:29 AM Re: Copy of copyright materials!!!!
The Pro Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 1087
Loc: Atlanta, Georgia
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:

Wouldn’t it be the case that if you use a midi file or a style that uses or tries to use the same type of sounds and accompaniment as the original song, even though the style or midi song does not have a melody, it will be copyright infringement?


No, at least under US copyright law. You can even use the song title, you just can't use the melody.

Quote:


If I were to arrange a popular song today in to a midi file with out the melody and put it on the internet for sale, could I do so with out any legal implications?


Yes, at least under US copyright law.

Quote:


Regarding styles, if the keyboard manufacturers can show that they have copyright to the styles, then I would think that they would have the right to prevent any modifications of the work. Don’t they have the right to control derivative works?


A derivative of something that is non-copyrightable is still non-copyrightable as far as I know.

Here's the real caveat: take arrangements as an example - they are not copyrightable in the US. So my arrangement of "As Time Goes By" cannot be copyrighted here, but it can be copyrighted in France where arrangements are recognized by copyright. The US has intellectual property right treaties with France so we are bound to recognize their laws and copyrights...so I can copyright my arrangements in France and they can be enforced here in the US.

It's possible that world-wide manufacturers such as Yamaha can claim the copyright protection of any country they sell to and force near-universal compliance through international treaties. For that reason, it may be possible that styles in arrangers are protected under international intellectual property rights, and thus the US. There had to be a catch, eh?
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Jim Eshleman

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#198398 - 03/24/05 09:03 AM Re: Copy of copyright materials!!!!
Synthman Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 13
Loc: Denmark
Hi again

Hey guys. Don't you read what I write before you hurry to the keyboard and answear the topics?????

My hole intension with my topics is to clear up: What do we do, if no style companies sees a business in making styles and midifiles. I think it's only maybe 5% of the users of arranger keyboards who's capable to make there own styles or midifiles from scratch.

This is the issue in this discussion.

And further more there is the discussion of copyrights.
I see it straight from a performers viewpoint.

Regards
Synthman

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#198399 - 03/24/05 09:21 AM Re: Copy of copyright materials!!!!
BlkNotes Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 220
Dear Synthman;

Do you actually think that manufacturers or aftermarket companies are going to stop making styles/sounds etc,, because some people copy some material? They won't! If that was the case the singers/song writers would stop producing music because a percentage of the population chooses to burn CDs of their material. Synthman you will just have to accept the practice, because in our technological age it has become common place. Further, their are companies out there that propagate these practices!! Sony who has a record label, makes CD-r, MDs, MP3,DVD-r players that can be used to copy their own artist. How does one dismiss that?

I seriously don't think that Yamaha, Korg, or Roland is going to go out of buisness, because some fellow in Denmark copied some styles. There is enough profit built into these KBs to accommadate these practices. You have to realistic.

Reagrds;
BN

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#198400 - 03/24/05 09:26 AM Re: Copy of copyright materials!!!!
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Quote:
Originally posted by Synthman:
Hi again

Hey guys. Don't you read what I write before you hurry to the keyboard and answear the topics?????

My hole intension with my topics is to clear up: What do we do, if no style companies sees a business in making styles and midifiles. I think it's only maybe 5% of the users of arranger keyboards who's capable to make there own styles or midifiles from scratch.

This is the issue in this discussion.

And further more there is the discussion of copyrights.
I see it straight from a performers viewpoint.

Regards
Synthman


But don’t you have to answer the question whether or not the midi file makers and style makers have copyright in the work before you can talk about rightful compensation?

I would think that style makers, if they create a work that does not substantially sound like another song, they have the copyright to that new creation in a style. If that style is viewed as a new original work, then they would have the right to control modification of the work, any derivatives of the work and distribution of the work.

I would agree that the sheering of styles made by an independent style maker will hurt the individual style maker and probably put them out of business. However, I don’t think it will hurt the manufacturers as much because as part of the keyboard the majority of people want internal styles.

As much as I would not mine an arranger without any preset styles, I don’t think that will happen because the majority of the arranger market wants every thing done for them already. So a keyboard manufacturer would not make a keyboard without styles because they would not sell.
From a performer’s viewpoint, it is better when the performer creates the style because it will fit the playing style of the performer and will give an individual twist to the style.
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TTG

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#198401 - 03/24/05 10:39 AM Re: Copy of copyright materials!!!!
The Pro Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 1087
Loc: Atlanta, Georgia
Quote:
Originally posted by Synthman:
Hi again

Hey guys. Don't you read what I write before you hurry to the keyboard and answear the topics?????

My hole intension with my topics is to clear up: What do we do, if no style companies sees a business in making styles and midifiles. I think it's only maybe 5% of the users of arranger keyboards who's capable to make there own styles or midifiles from scratch.

This is the issue in this discussion.

And further more there is the discussion of copyrights.
I see it straight from a performers viewpoint.

Regards
Synthman


That's a "hole intention" alright - you can't limit this question to something that simple-minded I'm afraid. A "performer's viewpoint" is hardly what determines whether copyrights are at the heart of this topic or not - they are, period.

Ever seen one of those "50,000 MIDI files on one CD for $25" on the web? They were scabbed off of the alt.binaries.music.midi newsgroup years ago when people used that forum for exchanging midi files. I happen to be very good at making midi files and I used to post a few now and then for others to use and enjoy... I was hopeful of even selling some of them someday... but this ripoff changed that. Once I checked and found out I couldn't copyright arrangements in the US, which is what my midi files are, I realized that my hard work would simply be resold by people who put no actual effort into the content and would likely sell my work for cheaper than I could.

Of course this is strictly from a MIDI file producer's point of view, which you may or may not share, but it does affect why you can't get MIDI files as easily as you may like as a performer: copyrights have their limitations and I can't afford a fleet of lawyers.
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Jim Eshleman

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#198402 - 03/24/05 01:18 PM Re: Copy of copyright materials!!!!
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
Should have gone fishing.
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Riding on the Avenue of Time
cassp50@gmail.com

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#198403 - 03/24/05 02:17 PM Re: Copy of copyright materials!!!!
nardoni2002 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/02
Posts: 673
Loc: malaga, spain
when video recorders were first put on the market in uk,there was alot of talk about not taping the films off the telly cause they were copyrighted and it was against the law ,when one of the manufacturers was interviewed he said that they (VCRs) are for playing your own bought films in the house and not for copying,he was then asked then WHY was there a record button on these devices,his reply well um you can copy it for your own use so long as you dont sell them on ,all this copyright crap, if goods were sold at a reasonable price in the first place pirating would not be so much of a problem,mike

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