Hi,

A lot of people here in the Netherlands think that we 'arranger keyboardplayers' have nothing to do to play a good sounding song. They think that we just hit a button or so and the rest goes automatically (like playing an SMF song). Then they think that you just have to do like you're actually playing the song by hitting the keys. Of course I do not agree with this at all, and I try to explain them what's actually happening. Sometimes this thought makes me mad when I hear such a thing again, and I start explaining again, like it doesn't matter. Most people who have such thought are often not very into musical instruments.

So how do people in your country think about playing a keyboard? Do they see it like art, what it actually is like, or just like they do here in the Netherlands? I'm interested to see the answers.

I just had to let this out

Sander

[This message has been edited by Sander (edited 01-19-2002).]

Hi Sander,
I am living in the Netherlands too and
my expiriences are the same.There is relative
small group who knows but a very big group
who knows nothing.It will take many years to
change this and perhaps it will never change.
We have to fight against the establishment
and their thoughts that a child that is play-
ing a violin is a saint and a child that is
playing an arrangerkeyboard is just playing
a toy.My opinion is YOU ARE IN FRONT OF THE
MUSIC!Be happy you know the arrangerkeyboards
enjoy it.(de massa bestaat uit meelopers die
alleen te beinvloeden als je er miljoenen
aan zou besteden om bekende TV persoonlijk-
heden om te kopen om iets positiefs te zeggen
over keyboards)It for me too difficult all
my words about this to say in English.

My country is Louisiana. You might say it is not exactly mainstream U.S.A. The vast majority of people here have no earthly idea what arrangers are. Other musicians don't have a clue--they understand sequences, they understand loops, they don't understand arrangers. In general the younger audiences are so indoctrinated to Karaoke that they are certain we're singing to "tapes". The older people still remember organs and they associate keyboards in that manner--which is certainly closer to the truth.
Only in the past few years have there been any other arranger players in the area. I have created a little interest (and competition) by introducing the arranger technology to a few singles and duos. I can still count them on one hand in an expanded area of around one million people.
In a nutshell, people have no opinion of arrangers because they don't know what they are.
DonM

I just saw on the german forum a similar discussion, with the same problem in Germany.

Arrangers are much more widely used in Germany (Europe) than in the US, so people are much more familiar with them.

People here in the US are still prety much in the dark as far as arrangers are concerned just like Don said.

Eric

Here in Norway they don't mind, because then
they don't have to pay for a bigger band.
You see, nowadays it's all about money, the
music is only something who happen to be in
the room.......
Well, we sound like we want to, even if it is
a BigBand or a OneManBand, and that is just
GREAT !!

GJ

Here in Brasil,profi arranger musicians are fighters against :
-Some "mid or minidisc" men that cannot play nothing with the proper fingers and want a sun place as musician.It takes courage to do such a thing.
-The karaoke machine.
-Some people that always are thinking : arrangers can play by itself...
Regards
Chico

Unlike Don's Louisiana, my country (Florida) is loaded with Arranger Players. But, money, as Gunnar says, dictates employability. After working in 4-7 pc groups for years, I made the switch to a Technics arranger (KN700, I think)in the early 90s. As primitive as it was, some in the audience marveled at the "bandlike sound" but it took awhile for them to get used to just one or two people on stage. The visual and the sound just didn't gel in their minds.

Today, that sound would not cut it. The arrangers are far more sophisticated, more lifelike, far more intuitive, and, for the most part, cheaper in price. Does the audience care about all that? Nope!. They just know what they like to hear...and they don't hear it, they go someplace else.

Oh, a few have come up to me over the years to peer over my shoulder to how its done. They may even ask a question, but after looking at the screen and about 2 button pushes they are lost. The one thing that is pretty constant is how overwhelmed they are about the number of buttons and controls we have to keep track of. But it is all about the music...and that's how we are judged.

I heard a waitress in a place I was playing talking to a customer and she referred to me as the "DeeJay". That kinda frosted me. Its doubtful that the word "arranger" was even in her vocabulary. But, I sure would have preferred her saying "musician" or "entertainer". I don't think the customer cared how I did it..he just liked the music...and that's what matters. On the other side of the coin, I have heard customers say THEY could do what the deejays do if they had the CDs and players...and its probably true. But, none of them has ever looked at what I do and said that. They may even be better singers, but they wouldn't think of trying to play an arranger.

One of the guys in the market does more horn and guitar playing to sequences on his arranger than actually fingering the keyboard. People see his keyboard, see him playing the horn in front of it, and assume all who use this kind of equipment are playing to tapes or discs. They don't have a clue. But, I understand where they are coming from.

Bottom Line: The arranger is viewed by most as some kind of piano that just happens to sound like a live band. And that's okay with me.

Eddie

Among the real arranger players in my market, we have guys playing Korgs, Roland, Technics...and one guy who's equipment is so old the name is worn off. I think I am the only Yamaha guy in town. So we all sound a little different. Some sequence a lot and have lush ballroom band sounds that only heavy sequencing can produce. I rarely sequence anything and prefer the lounge combo and 4-5 piece rock and country type sounds that are not overkill and more appropriate to one guy playing.

Thank you everyone.

Nice to see those postings, and even nicer to see Wis agreeing to my thoughts. Partly like what Chico said. Also suprised about the fact that arrangers in some parts of the US are not quite known. And the toy thing that Wis mentioned, just let's you see how people think about arrangers here .

But I like it, no matter what they say.
I just HAVE to play, everyday.

Sander

Wis: Of that helpt weet ik ook niet, maar wat je zegt heb je helemaal gelijk in.

Bsharp,

We were posting at the same time But you give a really good overview. Around christmas I was playing in public and you can pick the people out right away who have something done with music, or still play music, because most of the times they start to ask things. And people who have an arranger themselves, are looking at the frontside and backside of the arranger. First to see the buttons and functions, but at my board there are just 30 buttons I think and that's not much. But then they see the touch screen, and that's impressing them. But after all, they find it sounding great and we arranger players have just to live with these thought, but we know better

Sander

Here in the UK I have had a few times when people have been non-complimantary on my performance, basically because they think its a matter of just pushing a few buttons and touching a few keys, I think the problem comes from music programs on TV where a lot of bands mime and the keyboard players tend play one note here and there, they are more than probably not keybord players at all just merely stage fillers, that creates a bad impression in my opinion.
I always amazes me that if you play keyboards in a band your not ridiculed in anyway, but if you play an arranger keyboard your are looked upon as a second rate musician, I just explain to my audience that my left hand is the band conductor and I am the soloist on the right hand so I make my right hand playing very visiual to everybody in the room and they know I'm actually playing something, it also helps if you use two keyboards stacked so your two hands are not on the same instrument.

In today's music, I just love to be able to play the old music I Love, my way, not the way some young music producer thinks it will sell records. I do it primarily to please myself, and if by chance there is someone in the audience that likes what I am doing( and there's always someone), well, that's great! Meanwhile, here in the east coast DJs are making the big bucks, without even knowing what the chord C is made of; so I don't feel guilty about using an arranger. My forte is not necesarily my arranger but my music and the way I play it which helps me create the right background for my singing. Arrangers are wonderful tools that allow you to do it your way, all by yourself w/o the tribulations that go along with playing in a band(the pay is better too). The other great advantage of the arranger is the ability guitar(and other musicians)players have to make a transition from their instrument to the Keyboards; I played the guitar for 35 years professionally and It took me less than a year to play the K/B well enough to go out and gig with it. I developed Carpal Tunel Syndrom in my left hand from playing the guitar all this years and was forced to make the transition to survive in music, thanks to the arranger I am still able to make a living in this wonderful field.
Reagards, Mario

Oh! I forgot to mention; the irony of the whole thing is, after 2 years of playing keyboards and making the transition from the guitar, 99% of my fans hardly noticed the change in instruments. This only shows that people are far more interested in "you" than your instrument. So you guys out there worried about what people think, do not lose sleep over it.
Mario

Mario...
While I am no longer the right guy to entertain at a wedding for 20 year olds, I am amazed at the prices DeeJays can and do charge. My nephew got married in Orlando in September and the DeeJay got $800 for the 4 hr gig. I don't know about the rest of you, but, except for NY eve, I never see that kind of money.

Anyone have ideas of what DeeJays are charging in your area?
Eddie

DJ's ? ......don't get me started!

but if you must know what the're up to....
http://www.djchat.com/

Hi there.
From what I know of, arrangers aren't too popular in the UK, and one-man keyboard musicians are rare. It seems that people generally prefer people in bands. If you want live-music, you hire a band not an entertainer - that's generally how it goes here.

In all honesty, I've never been able to understand styles (I'm famous in this forum for this opinion!) despite listening to a lot of sound samples of many people in this forum performing. I never actually realised professional musicians used 'accompaniments' until I came into this forum. I'm not going to go into any more detail or I'll be public enemy number one again. However to answer your question, I'll just say arrangers are not popular in the UK

I totally agree with you James.

On my travels from pubs and clubs, you rarely see arrangers at all. In Pubs/Pensioners homes, Lounges perhaps, but Clubs?? - giz a break! a "PSR" (or whatever)entertaining 10,000 clubbers on a Saturday night at Hooters? - it'll never happen. Deejays dominate in these areas.

Arrangers have there place...so too do Professional bands.

O8




[This message has been edited by Octave8 (edited 01-20-2002).]

After all it's the same here; arrangers are not too popular 'as an image' here. But once they hear it and it sounds good to them, then they start to like it. And everyone is giving notion of that.. you see hands moving, feet moving.. just like the don't know

Sander

Maybe it's just because the majority of arrangers are manufactured in Italy, but people here are accustomed to them. It's very common to walk into a dancing hall or even a restaurant and see someone singing and playing an arranger or simply singing and using the arranger just to play midifiles. Musicians usually have nothing against them and are very competent (they can tell the difference in sounds and other features between -say- Roland and Ketron or Korg and Yamaha) and as far as the audience goes, every time I perform in public there is someone who comes to me and says "How much is that one? I wish I could buy one" or "Look at that screen: it's almost like a TV set!"

O8 - I agree with your statement, but need to add a "footnote". Solo acts would never have gotten a chance if it weren't for the loud, rude, behavior of many bands over the years. I've had bands too, and it was always tough to find players that thought like me, or had my work ethics.
I was forced into solo work, and I still am in copetition with 5 piece bands and larger. I play weddings for $600 - $100 as a solo and I regualrly work clubs that feature loud, rock and blues bands.
It's NOT the gear at all. It's the profession .... and the professional. Doesn't make a bit of difference how many hunks are on stage .... most of the time.
( there is a certain "look" that some head counters need, but for the most part - it's quality, and NOT quantity. )

Just have those people listen to me playing my arranger board. With all the mistakes I make I assure you, they never say the word DJ again.

Quite a similar situation in Portugal. Although in the south of the country, keyboardists are not always taken seriously as good musicians (especially those "playing" midi files), arrangers are reasonably well accepted if included in small duets or trio,
and when styles are used.

In the North of Portugal people seem a bit less demanding and accept solo acts even when the use of midi files in dominant in the show.

I remember seeing a lot of arranger players and solo acts in the Canary Islands (spanish touristic islands near the african coast), with a vast majority of american, british and german audience.

From what others have said, I may be one of the few using arranger keyboards to generate backing tracks for live solo guitar work. Playing from CD's or minidiscs, this approach works great from me. Most, who ask, seems amazed and want to know where that band comes from? This application works well for easy-listening, no-pressure cocktail music, receptions, etc., where they don't care what you play. As you would guess, taking requests is tough with prerecorded background tracks. I try to anticipate what the occasion calls for.

This discussion about arranger acceptance is interesting on a lot of different levels. One of them is that this question - in and of itself makes arranger users think about the nature of the music and the evolution of sound. Taking this discussion all the way back to the 19th century when virtuosos like the violisnist Paganinni took tremendous creative/iimprovisational liberties inside the performance of an ensemble accompanying him who all played from a WRITTEN score. One could argue the orchestra was canned if you compared them to Paganinni. The operative argument should have been at that time as it should be now - DID you enjoy the performance - not some comment about the level of musicianship,whether you liked the style, the number of people in the band, etc.. those comments all have their place but in the final analysis - music will always be whether or not you enjoyed the experience of the sound and the atmosphere.

To some extent - playing with an arranger is only limited by your skills, musical ideas,the kind of setting you are in, and the quality of your sound in comparison to what people expect. For myself who envisions playing jazz with an arranger much in the same vein as a classical soloist/improvisor might interact with an orchestra - with different styles,tempos,segues,etc. all within the same piece - I believe arrangers offer an opportunity to do so with a tremendous time savings,cost savings, but may have to include an allowance for bringing an audience into a different state of comprehension about how music should or should not be presented. Not everyone will come along, but not everyone would like my music even if played by Oscar Peterson or Bill Evans accompanied by the London Philharmonic.

In the final analysis - music evolves - and arrangers have a place - they will improve - and thank God keyboard players will have an opportunity to share the limelight that has been showered so much on guitars.

regards
Mike H

Mike H., That's wonderful!
I've never heard anyone say it better.
DonM

I'm with Don on this.

Well said Mike.
When my wife and I play, the first command is on her beautiful voice and the style of music we play.

Only a couple of times did people come up and made a remark about "just pushing buttons".

In my experience those people make often remarks about everything and downplay even a regular bands and God who knows what else.

Those people got this discussion started in the first place, and we really shouldn't pay attention to them, because "ignorence" is their middle name.

If someone really appreciates music, it will not matter to them where it comes from.

I like to focus on those people that I make happy with my music. And I'm shure you all do the same.

Eric

Just to make a little personal example of how things go here in Italy, Friday evening I have been invited to a party by a group of friends and colleagues; there will be a couple of other guys who play the guitar, but the host insisted that I bring my "organ" (sic!) because I am the only one who can take all the requests (from Tango to Hully Gully) and make people sing along (more or less out of tune) and be happy. So, even if there was a live band they would still prefer my arranger, because with a live band you can only listen, while with an arranger you become part of the show.

[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 01-23-2002).]

Mike H
Bravo. Bravo! Don was right - you said it EXACTLY like it should have been said.

Powerful words .... care to elaborate?
No one is a "part of the show" unless I INVITE them to be a part. At least that's the way I work. Please explain why you feel that it's different in a band - I don't see the point.

Hmmmm, I wouldn't particularly describe myself as 'ignorant'.

I really don't think that was aimed at you Jamie.

Thanks Dave; you're right

Eric

I know of a couple of solo's using arrangers. One is the highest paid around here at about $400/night 3 nights a week (his choice) as many weeks a year as he wants to work. I think he's pulling in around 70K a year or more with 4 days off a week. (I make 400 - 700 $ for a party/banquet.. usually 500... Many DJ's are getting more. I try to get 200/weekday 250/weekend night at clubs and restaurants..regular work.)
His show is much more than just an arranger though and actually he's the least "musician" of all the solo's around here. He uses comedy and jokes and somehow works everyone into the show (remembers all their names) and has a huge following. I KNOW it helps that he's from Ireland and has the brogue to prove it. That alone will keep you working in almost any major city in North America if you utilize the support. It's NOT a knock at all just a fact that, on the whole, the Irish are clannish and will support someone from their "old country" much more than they would someone from just around the town. (I'm actually half Irish myself [of decent]also English, Scot, Sicilian, French, German, but ... really 100% American!)
I plan on joining the arranger croud. I will use it only as a tool ... to add to my show. Hell I also use a kazoo to add to my show. I and the other guy I mentioned also play the guitar. In my case a midi guitar as well as an acoustic.
I know I'm throwing more into this stew than I needed to but to sum it up...
I'm past the point of caring who thinks I'm just pushing buttons or twisting dials or whatever. MANY people actually believe I'm lip-syncing and that's anoying but screw them. (I mean... if you really sound bad or suck... yeah, it's you alright. But if you really sound good.. no, it must be fake!! What a stupid Catch-22!) I won't even mention the "just wooden acoustic" purists here... ooops... I did!
You have to look past these people and play for the ones who really do know whats going on. They make it worthwhile. But also, truely, to rely on the audience for any kind of high or reward is a trap. Some of my friends had to quit solo work and go back to bands 'cause they couldn't stand the apathy and lack of recognition they got as a solo.
I do what I do now... because it's what I do best. I do my best each night... for ME! I'll use a keyboard, a guitar, an arranger, a harmonica, a kazoo to get the job done. The job is to entertain your audience the best you can. I do the best I can and when the nights over ... it's over. See you tomorrow... you've been great... don't forget the waitress and bartender.. and the BAND! Goodnight!

As I read it, I am with Andrea at this point.
It's a private party of friends and collegues with a clear purpose of having a partynight with active participation from all the guests including all kind of requests. There's no need for having total control over "audience" other then make sure they don't drink too much, which is not the task of the musicians anyway.
----

As far as the original subject;

There is a clear geographical difference in acceptance of the arrangers.

"The more south you go the better is the acceptance"

This is the same in europe as in usa apparantly.
I am pretty often in countries around mediteranean and I can assure you the arrangers are very well accepted there.

Is this because the north european public are more seriously? Or are they just TOO conservative and not open minded for new techniques?

If I was public, music should be for entertainment which could be serious, joy, love, have fun, you name it , music has it all! I would not care how it was done as long as the music pleases me.

The only reason I am interested is the fact that I am a musician/composer myselve.

Now I am not saying that you should not take your job (if it is your living) serious!
You better do!
But if it is your profession, hence you are in the entertainment bussiness!
So your first job is to entertain!

And if you make a good living out of it, you are a professional doing fine!
But which manner you use to do it, to my opinion is less of importance!

So arrangers have their place absolutely, but how they are used? John Doe does not care at all!

Didn't we have this discussion before?

Well, Freddy more or less said what I was going to say; Friday night I will not be a professional who plays for a fee; I will be one in a group of friends and I will give my contribution to an evening of pleasure and entertainment bringing my keyboard. So it's pretty normal that people will come to me, ask a particular song and then start to sing or dance as soon as I start to play. This way they become part of the show and they LOVE it; but even if I were a professional, frankly I don't know if (at least in a small environment) I would keep my audience at a distance. I love being part of the crowd and act as a catalyzer for their emotions. I think that music is all about emotions; I like to think of myself as someone who, for one evening, helps other people to forget their problems and enjoy their time.
As far as the comparison with a live band goes, well it's obvious that when you listen to a group of people playing you are much more limited in your possibilities to express yourself. Maybe you are still a part of the show, but just as a crowd, while with an arranger you can become much more involved. I have seen many professional arranger players invite people to "express themselves" onstage. I don't know if this can be considered professional behaviour by all of you, but their philosophy seems to be that as long as the audience is happy, everything goes.
By the way, they seem to think also that if the audience is happy, so is the owner of the club.
.....okay, I know that I have just opened the famous can of worms.....


[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 01-23-2002).]

I think I agree with Uncle Dave on this one, even though I think he could have used a much better choice of words to describe what he was trying to get across.

As a one man arranger act, one of our jobs is to orchestrate the flow of the evening. If we just let the audience 'take over', pandimonium could ensue. Nothing is worse than having an entoxicated party member jump up and grab the mic, spoiling the evening for the rest of the crowd. Our job is to make sure the audience has a good time, but not at the expense of the few drunk or rude ones (always one in every crowd). I always welcome audience participation, but it's our job to determine the right time/place. Success as a musician/entertainer requires much more than just playing the music. - Scott

I guess that what we are facing here are two different perspectives: the first from those for whom music is a "real" job, and the second from those who make money only occasionaly (at most) from music. I've been (and still am) on both sides, and (now that you make me think of it) I try to adopt somewhat different attitudes. In a non payed act, among other friends in a public place (a bar or a party), I tend not to care too much about other people taking the command of the situation, but when I am in a job, I'm careful about letting others interfere in the show. Sometimes the bar owner or the party organizer likes it, sometimes he doesn't. I try to antecipate what pleases him the most. It also depends on the moment. Normally a little bit of "singing together" can result great, if late in the show, but can be desastrous if the show-man is too soft and doesn't have an attitude that clearly sets the rules.

I'm not surprised to read the opinion of Dave and Scott. They are true professionals. In addition, it's also possible that latins (i'm portuguese and Andrea is italian, I think) tend to be more informal and expect that "intense participation" from the public is a normal and desirable situation.
José Matias.

Hi

Funny how a tread tend to change some of the originally posted topic after a while....

Reading some of this posts make me start wondering about if it is the people who are the users of the musicians entertainment and music for dancing who is the main part here, or if it is the musicians own needs to show off and tell: "I'm the boss and Oh, am I good or what !!".

I think it is a very different matter if you perform a concert where people are there "only" to listen and enjoy your work while sit down in a chair, maybe just to judge your skills, and the music is your very favourite type to play, or if you are performing at a party of any kind where the peoples only goal mainly is to have a lot of fun, and you're playing mixed type of music to please the needs for that event, even if it is "your type" of music or not.

This is the way most, if not all auto-arranger keyboard players I know about do the jobs/gigs. Week-end dances, clubs, private parties, small restaurants etc. The kind of places where the guests in fact are "the boss", and if you don't manage to run your show the way it pleases your audience, well, then you're probably not going to be the entertainer in that area for any long time before somebody else has taken over.

If any of the people are drunk or not doese'nt really matter, they are also guests, and most likely they have been able to reach that condition by "goodies" available at the place. Besides of that, most often those of the peole who still have some common sence left, use to handle this matters wery well.

When your done with your job, and have played from your list of melodies in a way that the audience think they have choosen all songs all by themselves, then you're really good at it, and the only rule nessesary should be:
Keep your fingers, food and liquid away from my equipment, and Please, make love, not war - Let's have a party !!

Cheers
GJ

Dear All,
I have enjoyably read most of the posts in this thread. My two cents worth sheds some light on what I think an arranger is. As some of you might know, I have an xp60 as well, . I used the xp60 for over three years mostly to compose music from scratch or by totally warping midi files to my command. The one thing that was missing in all this was my voice. Even though I did produce some songs, my vocals and singing was always the weak point. How did I come to that realization?
I came to that realization when I bought the psr740. Gosh, after playing this instrument for a month now, my vocals have improved dramatically. I am able to stay in key(probably because of feedback from vocalizer), I sound fantastic (to my ears ofcourse). I heard some of the old recordings from xp60-only days, and the ones I am doing on the psr740, the difference is WILD!
How have my vocals improved so much? Well analyzing my playing a little bit, and after reading all the posts in this thread, I have come to the conclusion that while playing the arranger, I was assisted in experimenting with vocals as only an arranger can allow me. As someone said, the left hand becomes the band leader or orchestrator, and the right hand becomes the musician or soloist, I will add to that, and say that the voice/vocals become another soloist. So I have two soloists while playing the arranger, my right hand (which does what it pleases) and my voice which goes where it finds musical comfort. The only way that it was possible for me to have these two soloists FREE to experiment and grow to their full potential, was because of the strength of the arranger to provide a stable background, like the symphony orchestra provides to the improvising soloist (as another soul has mentioned on this thread).
To me the arranger is like a canvas, which is of one color. Between its monotonous repetition (one color), my two soloists twine their expression(colors) to produce an enjoyable musical piece(painting).
On the other hand, the xp60 is more like a grid, a graph with coordinates that I place objects in, ultimately resulting in a musical composition. The vocals (for me atleast) are added after the music is fully created, and then I cannot experiment, or there is tremendous rework. My two soloists are required to be disciplined and regimented, thus, loosing their freedom.
Alas, the arranger is but a tool, like the xp60, it has its edges, its idiosyncracies, and like the xp60 it helps me to accomplish a goal, although in a different way.

P.S. Still haven't got much use for the sustain pedal, I guess my brain hasn't caught up to that invention, just yet.