Thanks Dave; you're right

Eric

I know of a couple of solo's using arrangers. One is the highest paid around here at about $400/night 3 nights a week (his choice) as many weeks a year as he wants to work. I think he's pulling in around 70K a year or more with 4 days off a week. (I make 400 - 700 $ for a party/banquet.. usually 500... Many DJ's are getting more. I try to get 200/weekday 250/weekend night at clubs and restaurants..regular work.)
His show is much more than just an arranger though and actually he's the least "musician" of all the solo's around here. He uses comedy and jokes and somehow works everyone into the show (remembers all their names) and has a huge following. I KNOW it helps that he's from Ireland and has the brogue to prove it. That alone will keep you working in almost any major city in North America if you utilize the support. It's NOT a knock at all just a fact that, on the whole, the Irish are clannish and will support someone from their "old country" much more than they would someone from just around the town. (I'm actually half Irish myself [of decent]also English, Scot, Sicilian, French, German, but ... really 100% American!)
I plan on joining the arranger croud. I will use it only as a tool ... to add to my show. Hell I also use a kazoo to add to my show. I and the other guy I mentioned also play the guitar. In my case a midi guitar as well as an acoustic.
I know I'm throwing more into this stew than I needed to but to sum it up...
I'm past the point of caring who thinks I'm just pushing buttons or twisting dials or whatever. MANY people actually believe I'm lip-syncing and that's anoying but screw them. (I mean... if you really sound bad or suck... yeah, it's you alright. But if you really sound good.. no, it must be fake!! What a stupid Catch-22!) I won't even mention the "just wooden acoustic" purists here... ooops... I did!
You have to look past these people and play for the ones who really do know whats going on. They make it worthwhile. But also, truely, to rely on the audience for any kind of high or reward is a trap. Some of my friends had to quit solo work and go back to bands 'cause they couldn't stand the apathy and lack of recognition they got as a solo.
I do what I do now... because it's what I do best. I do my best each night... for ME! I'll use a keyboard, a guitar, an arranger, a harmonica, a kazoo to get the job done. The job is to entertain your audience the best you can. I do the best I can and when the nights over ... it's over. See you tomorrow... you've been great... don't forget the waitress and bartender.. and the BAND! Goodnight!

As I read it, I am with Andrea at this point.
It's a private party of friends and collegues with a clear purpose of having a partynight with active participation from all the guests including all kind of requests. There's no need for having total control over "audience" other then make sure they don't drink too much, which is not the task of the musicians anyway.
----

As far as the original subject;

There is a clear geographical difference in acceptance of the arrangers.

"The more south you go the better is the acceptance"

This is the same in europe as in usa apparantly.
I am pretty often in countries around mediteranean and I can assure you the arrangers are very well accepted there.

Is this because the north european public are more seriously? Or are they just TOO conservative and not open minded for new techniques?

If I was public, music should be for entertainment which could be serious, joy, love, have fun, you name it , music has it all! I would not care how it was done as long as the music pleases me.

The only reason I am interested is the fact that I am a musician/composer myselve.

Now I am not saying that you should not take your job (if it is your living) serious!
You better do!
But if it is your profession, hence you are in the entertainment bussiness!
So your first job is to entertain!

And if you make a good living out of it, you are a professional doing fine!
But which manner you use to do it, to my opinion is less of importance!

So arrangers have their place absolutely, but how they are used? John Doe does not care at all!

Didn't we have this discussion before?

Well, Freddy more or less said what I was going to say; Friday night I will not be a professional who plays for a fee; I will be one in a group of friends and I will give my contribution to an evening of pleasure and entertainment bringing my keyboard. So it's pretty normal that people will come to me, ask a particular song and then start to sing or dance as soon as I start to play. This way they become part of the show and they LOVE it; but even if I were a professional, frankly I don't know if (at least in a small environment) I would keep my audience at a distance. I love being part of the crowd and act as a catalyzer for their emotions. I think that music is all about emotions; I like to think of myself as someone who, for one evening, helps other people to forget their problems and enjoy their time.
As far as the comparison with a live band goes, well it's obvious that when you listen to a group of people playing you are much more limited in your possibilities to express yourself. Maybe you are still a part of the show, but just as a crowd, while with an arranger you can become much more involved. I have seen many professional arranger players invite people to "express themselves" onstage. I don't know if this can be considered professional behaviour by all of you, but their philosophy seems to be that as long as the audience is happy, everything goes.
By the way, they seem to think also that if the audience is happy, so is the owner of the club.
.....okay, I know that I have just opened the famous can of worms.....


[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 01-23-2002).]

I think I agree with Uncle Dave on this one, even though I think he could have used a much better choice of words to describe what he was trying to get across.

As a one man arranger act, one of our jobs is to orchestrate the flow of the evening. If we just let the audience 'take over', pandimonium could ensue. Nothing is worse than having an entoxicated party member jump up and grab the mic, spoiling the evening for the rest of the crowd. Our job is to make sure the audience has a good time, but not at the expense of the few drunk or rude ones (always one in every crowd). I always welcome audience participation, but it's our job to determine the right time/place. Success as a musician/entertainer requires much more than just playing the music. - Scott

I guess that what we are facing here are two different perspectives: the first from those for whom music is a "real" job, and the second from those who make money only occasionaly (at most) from music. I've been (and still am) on both sides, and (now that you make me think of it) I try to adopt somewhat different attitudes. In a non payed act, among other friends in a public place (a bar or a party), I tend not to care too much about other people taking the command of the situation, but when I am in a job, I'm careful about letting others interfere in the show. Sometimes the bar owner or the party organizer likes it, sometimes he doesn't. I try to antecipate what pleases him the most. It also depends on the moment. Normally a little bit of "singing together" can result great, if late in the show, but can be desastrous if the show-man is too soft and doesn't have an attitude that clearly sets the rules.

I'm not surprised to read the opinion of Dave and Scott. They are true professionals. In addition, it's also possible that latins (i'm portuguese and Andrea is italian, I think) tend to be more informal and expect that "intense participation" from the public is a normal and desirable situation.
José Matias.

Hi

Funny how a tread tend to change some of the originally posted topic after a while....

Reading some of this posts make me start wondering about if it is the people who are the users of the musicians entertainment and music for dancing who is the main part here, or if it is the musicians own needs to show off and tell: "I'm the boss and Oh, am I good or what !!".

I think it is a very different matter if you perform a concert where people are there "only" to listen and enjoy your work while sit down in a chair, maybe just to judge your skills, and the music is your very favourite type to play, or if you are performing at a party of any kind where the peoples only goal mainly is to have a lot of fun, and you're playing mixed type of music to please the needs for that event, even if it is "your type" of music or not.

This is the way most, if not all auto-arranger keyboard players I know about do the jobs/gigs. Week-end dances, clubs, private parties, small restaurants etc. The kind of places where the guests in fact are "the boss", and if you don't manage to run your show the way it pleases your audience, well, then you're probably not going to be the entertainer in that area for any long time before somebody else has taken over.

If any of the people are drunk or not doese'nt really matter, they are also guests, and most likely they have been able to reach that condition by "goodies" available at the place. Besides of that, most often those of the peole who still have some common sence left, use to handle this matters wery well.

When your done with your job, and have played from your list of melodies in a way that the audience think they have choosen all songs all by themselves, then you're really good at it, and the only rule nessesary should be:
Keep your fingers, food and liquid away from my equipment, and Please, make love, not war - Let's have a party !!

Cheers
GJ

Dear All,
I have enjoyably read most of the posts in this thread. My two cents worth sheds some light on what I think an arranger is. As some of you might know, I have an xp60 as well, . I used the xp60 for over three years mostly to compose music from scratch or by totally warping midi files to my command. The one thing that was missing in all this was my voice. Even though I did produce some songs, my vocals and singing was always the weak point. How did I come to that realization?
I came to that realization when I bought the psr740. Gosh, after playing this instrument for a month now, my vocals have improved dramatically. I am able to stay in key(probably because of feedback from vocalizer), I sound fantastic (to my ears ofcourse). I heard some of the old recordings from xp60-only days, and the ones I am doing on the psr740, the difference is WILD!
How have my vocals improved so much? Well analyzing my playing a little bit, and after reading all the posts in this thread, I have come to the conclusion that while playing the arranger, I was assisted in experimenting with vocals as only an arranger can allow me. As someone said, the left hand becomes the band leader or orchestrator, and the right hand becomes the musician or soloist, I will add to that, and say that the voice/vocals become another soloist. So I have two soloists while playing the arranger, my right hand (which does what it pleases) and my voice which goes where it finds musical comfort. The only way that it was possible for me to have these two soloists FREE to experiment and grow to their full potential, was because of the strength of the arranger to provide a stable background, like the symphony orchestra provides to the improvising soloist (as another soul has mentioned on this thread).
To me the arranger is like a canvas, which is of one color. Between its monotonous repetition (one color), my two soloists twine their expression(colors) to produce an enjoyable musical piece(painting).
On the other hand, the xp60 is more like a grid, a graph with coordinates that I place objects in, ultimately resulting in a musical composition. The vocals (for me atleast) are added after the music is fully created, and then I cannot experiment, or there is tremendous rework. My two soloists are required to be disciplined and regimented, thus, loosing their freedom.
Alas, the arranger is but a tool, like the xp60, it has its edges, its idiosyncracies, and like the xp60 it helps me to accomplish a goal, although in a different way.

P.S. Still haven't got much use for the sustain pedal, I guess my brain hasn't caught up to that invention, just yet.