I think this needs some clarification.
Old "oriental"(middle eastern, meditteranean)
music didn't even use chords since they
didn't have chordal instruments. A typical
ensemble would have percussion, oud(grand daddy of lute), violin, and ney(flute). Later on, guitar and keyboards were
added and these, of course, could not play
quarter tones, so standard chords were used.
Interestingly, when bass was added, fretless
types were used, so that quarter tone scales
could be played, and the bass followed the
melody line.
This brings us to modern arranger keyboards.
A high end model like the Roland G1000,
could have ALL STYLE PARTS play using the
quarter tone scale selected(a friend of mine owns one and has tried this); while a lower
model, like the Roland E-40 ORIENTAL, would
only have the lead or split keyboard play
the selected quarter tone scale, and have
the Style play all parts in a standard scale(as mentioned by STAM).
Therefore having the option to do it both ways, as well as having the option of having the style bass part, and non-chordal style parts play quarter tone scales would
be the ideal choice.
Jos, as I have discussed with you before,
linking OMB with a sample player that has
MTS and SCALA compatibility would make the
most sense. In addition, all the microtonal
composers(including those who are not
playing oriental music) could benefit greatly from such a configuration.

[This message has been edited by Vquestor (edited 09-04-2003).]

Rikki,

The keyboard manufacturers might think the same way as you. But as I said before I don't expect them to be the first ones to come with an affordable PC arranger. It wil be another company that has a strong place in the consumer electronics market. Sony, Dell you name it.

About not being able to convert the KN7 to PSR, you're definetely wrong. Any style that can be recorded in a MIDI file can be converted. I used this method with BIAB styles and the styles from a Roland E-66. It is explained at http://www.1manband.nl/convert.htm .

Vquestor,

I suggested before to detune the melody channels (1-8). In addition you could detune the bass channel (11). Or go all the way and detune the chordal channels(12-16) as well.

Jos

Ricci,
I don't think the keyboard manufacturers have a choice. If one of them does it, the rest will follow, and they lose.
If they don't and, as Jos mentioned, the Dell, IBM, Compact, etc. do it then they have to follow suit, and they lose.
If neither do it, then we'll do it ourselves, and they lose.
IMO the big three need to make good quality keyboards in various configurations, 88 key, 76, 61, and sell styles and sound fonts. Another possibility, is for them to come out with their own open system, with replaceable styles, fonts, and o/s which they will upgrade (for a fee). The hardware needs to be upgradeable as well. The first one do this, may well win the market share of business and become the standard.
IMO this will happen, because the technology is already there to do this. If it can be done it will.
Star

Is it possible for Yamaha, Korg, Roland to conglomerate themselves just for this PC arranger product as an experimental? I don't think they will loose a lot of money if this project is not succesful? Then if they don't do it, another group of companies with common goal might do it.

Yes, I totally agree with you..
But then again, you know what guys,, its really suspicious that suddenly after stealing the show at NAMM the Open labs company suddenly died down...Im talking about THe ECKO System.
I think someone in the Big three might have bought the guys out..

Dont know, but I wonder what happened.. I think people at the big three, noticed it, and took drastic measures...

Its only my theory, but it usually happens when stuff like that comes up and threatens the life of other companies that keep sucking our blood(cash) year after year, by just giving us the same product with a new look..

Mmmmm , I wonder..

best,
Musikman

I was staying on the sidelines of this discussion, but I think Jos has the right idea. Eventually the keyboard-shaped PCs with black and white keys will replace dedicated keyboards. I have often considered putting one together myself. That is why I was so keenly following Frank Rosenthal's work.

The music companies are in the business of making music. That is why many of the great-sounding keyboards have underpowered processors, which don't allow proper multi-tasking, crappy user interfaces, and under-specified sample memories. These companies may have several engineers who are specialists in DSP and sound generation, and perhaps one guy who designs the user interface and the operating system. There is little wonder that the hardware (not talking about sound generation circuitry) of a typical keyboard is generations behind the PCs (or Mac's) bottom of the line machines.

It is indeed possible that some manufacturer (e.g. Creative Labs) will come out with the keyboard/PC piece, which will allow us to run music software, as well as most other applications.

Having said that, there are some caveats.
1. The keyboard/pc should use low power design, to avoid having cooling fans. These create noise, and as mechanical components are prone to failure. At present, even the laptops are designed to contain small fans. I understand that there are some case designs which allow fanless operation, but these are rare, and so far expensive.

2. Windows XP is quite stable (I would probably take it on stage), with most of the problems being caused by the crap we end up downloading from the Internet (moral - do not use your keyboard for surfing). However, a keyboard/PC instrument would greatly benefit from the ROMable operating system, which does not require disk for basic operation. Hard disks, which are once again mechanical devices, are much more prone to failure than solid state memory is. Hard disks are great for storing large amounts of information, such as midi files, sample data, off-line styles, etc; however, or rare occations that the HD might fail, your instrument will be toast if you are relying on it for core operation. All of todays keyboards which contain HDs use them as a backup/off-line storage tool (e.g. if the Tyros HD fails, you can still play built-in styles and sounds and the rest of the keyboard for the most part will work)
I don't believe, that WinXP is capable of diskless operation. Windows XP embedded allows for such operation, but additional programming may be required to move the applications to that platform (added expense).

3. As keyboard users, we have different user interface requirements than the general users of the computers. We need a lot of buttons, which we can use to quickly (1 or 2 button pushes) navigate to the desired selections. The buttons have to be properly spaced and logically laid out. It just won't do to hunt and peck for the right keyboard buttons or take our hands off the keys to use a mouse or a touch pad. Solution - custom-designed keyboard with keys laid out in a logical fashion, which can be expensive, unless this same design can be used for a million units sold (which is highly unlikely).

We also do not need a full-size LCD, which takes up room and adds heft to the keyboard frame. I believe that the keyboard/PC would do nicely with a half-height screen (still regular width). While such screens do exist, they are more expensive than regular commonly-available 14-15" 4:3 displays

4. While the XG-soundcard would work well, as Jos is suggesting, it would relegate us to PSR620(?) sound quality with its 4MB wavetable. As Frank is finding out, to get good, professional sound quality out of a PC-based instrument, you need to go to high end sound cards and high-end, expensive software.

5. There is also style copyright issue - I bet the moment the PC-based arranger hits the streets, Yamahas, Rolands, and everybody else will hit the manufacturers with the law suits - according to DMCA, the US copyright law, even if you do not ship actual copyrighted styles with the instrument, you are producing/posessing a tool for violating the copyright (of the copyrighted styles), which is a crime in itself. While IMHO this law is stupid, it is nonetheless there. The solution - the manufacturer would have to either purchase licenses from the major arranger manufacturers for use of their styles (more likely, more expensive), or pay royalties to them for the use of these styles (less likely).

If the user wants to settle for a fairly low-end instrument (with the specs like Casio) which is upgradeable to a degree, and can run other applications, then as Jos is suggesting, you can beuild a $1200 instrument with a PC inside.

While all of the above problems can be overcome to build a truly professional-grade instrument, we would be looking to spend Eko /Wersi-type dough - $4-5K or more. It is far from certain that at this price one can sell many copies of it. I, for one, would opt for a dedicated keyboard, if it can be had significantly cheaper.

I think this is the reason Eko did not fly; as well, at a Musicmesse a few years back one of the German synthesizer makers (was it Waldorf?) had announced a keyboard with a PC inside - the picture looked very snazzy, but it must have been scrapped as well.

On the long run, however, I am sure that keyboard/PC instrument is the way of the future. I am constantly keeping my eye out for the advances in technology to overcome most of the issues I listed above. Hopefully soon we will be able to do it.

Regards,
Alex

if the wersi has the pc.technology by buying a second hand model surely you would be getting all the advantages of a same price new board, ie,tyros, korg ,etc plus its upgradable,wouln,t this be a better way to go, what do you think,mike

Alex,

You must have been thinking about this a lot longer than me!

Most of your points are about getting the quality right for professional performing artsists. The product that I had in mind would be sold mainly to home-users. Most $1200 keyboards are used by home-users and they wouldn't have to much problems with the things you described.

About the style copyrights, the styles on the net are not all owned by Yamaha. A lot are user-made. Above that Yamaha has openly declared that styles that are no longer sold by them (in keyboards or on diskettes) can be used freely for non-commercial use.

Jos

[This message has been edited by Jos Maas (edited 09-05-2003).]

Jos,

Is it possible to design an arranger softsynth for Windows CE platform? I'll check out the posibilities of this pocket pc devices. I guess some of them have General Midi sound chip inside.

Dan

I for one, dont do any gigs. Im a bedroom producer. So far with my Korg i30 and Roland VS, produced a cd for my brother in law that he sells when he goes out to churches and sings.
Its not perfect, but people do feel that its a band thats playing there. That makes me feel good, cause it was all done in my Korg i30. Except for the Lead guitars that I personally did.

If I can get that type of quality from a PC arranger, then im sold.
So far, I feel that OMB is really good. I just have to learn the ins and out of it.

I havent even figured out how to make it work with Cubase VST32. I have this program just sitting there. I wish I can learn it really good, cause once I do, then im going full pC.

Little by little, these big companies are going to feel the pain we consumers are feeling.
Why? because, technology is moving foward, and yet, they are giving us products with parts that arent even made anymore.

We are their lifeline. No customers=less jobs for them.
I for one, hope this doesnt happen, but its getting there little by little.
In the current world economy, if a company does not take care of its lifeline, then it will have to settle with the consequences.

best,

MusiKman