I use the 'pitch bend' controler to add expression when playing guitar & harmonica solos, especially on country tunes. What I can't figure out is how anyone could ever access the pitch bend/mod wheels while performing in arranger keyboard mode, because the left hand always needs to be playing/ triggering the chords, while the right hand performs the guitar solo. I have had to (instead) assign a foot controler pedal to trigger pitch bend (1/2 step fixed pitch change). This is a marginably workable solution but unfortunately you don't have the pitch change control (varying degrees within the set parameter) which can be achieved via a pitch bend wheel/stick. I''m interested how others of you deal with this.

Here another pitch bend gripe (specifically related the Yamaha PSR2000) which has perplexed me. Why is pitch bend only assignable to foot controler #2 and not foot controler #1 ? It seems that all other foot controler assignments (except modulation & volume) are assignable to either foot controler #1 or #2. The reason this is an issue for me is because I typically like to dedicate foot controler #2 to vocal harmonony on/off and sustain (damper pedal) to foot controler #1. When I'm playing a stringed guitar instrument (the sustain pedal assignment is not appropriate) so it makes more sense to be able to assign pitch bend to controler #1 in those situtations, and be able to keep foot controler #2 assigned to vocal harmony on/off. Oh well, maybe it's just ME? I'm curious to hear from other PSR players about this.

- Scott
http://scottyee.com

Can you switch them, and use the sustain from pedal 2?

I just let go of the chord and use left hand for the pitch bend. Maybe you are using too many chord changes.
DonM

Brilliant !
Gee . . . Why didn't 'I' think of that !?
Thanks UD - Scott

DonM,
Nope, I don't use too many chord changes, especially cuz country tunes don't require that many , but I do play with both hands (with the 'left voice' on playing a live keyboard or guitar comp) so lifting my left hand off the keys suddenly would sound weird. I tried using the 'left hold' feature, but that sounds unatural.

Hmmm Interesting Scott.....but I don't think I could live with a non linear ( varying degrees ) control like a standard foot pedal...pitch bend is just way too important of a tool for me and I emulate guitar solos quite a bit. I manage somehow to jump back and forth between chord changes and the joystick on the PA80 without ( usually..lol )missing a beat, but mainly I only use the joystick when soloing and I keep the rythyms and accompaniment instrument changes as simple as possible. In a live setting though I can't really emulate all of the things I would do on my own compositions and still use pitch bend techniques properly...( playing an arranger is such a different and distinct skill from playing a regular keyboard huh..? ). Normally I don't even think of any of this because I don't play the arranger functions while I'm recording or composing additional rythyms or melodies.. Anything that is done from the styles or my own styles is normally recorded first, and played back on the sequencer, allowing me to use both hands to play additional parts. So much other stuff to think about when playing live with the arranger functions..

I would almost have to learn an entirely new skill if it were possible to do the pitch bend with a pedal exactly as it can be done with a wheel or joystick, but I'd be willing to do it as I too recognize that soloing and using note bending with my left hand takes away from using my left hand the way I need to to play a song properly.

Hmmm.. I was curious though...I really never tried but can the pedal controls be changed / assigned in registration settings ?

My gripe with the 2000 is that I don't like "wheels" to begin with, but that is MY problem..I'm sure other players have their own preferences. I much prefer the joystick approach that Korg uses, where pitch and mod can be controlled on one joystick simultaneously. I also don't like that the mod wheel has no springback. I can see the advantages for someone who wants to leave it set in a certain position but in the past while playing a solo I have bumped into it when reaching for the pitch wheel and it took long enough for it to be noticable before I could correct it.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 01-11-2002).]

I TOTALLY agree ! This is what makes live arranger keyboard playing so special and such a unique art!


YES. I made custom voice registration setups (buttons 1-8) specific to different music genres (country, pop, rock, latin, jazz, etc). I typically assign pitch bend to the foot controler for guitar-stringed instruments and sustain for keyboard instsruments).

Scott...Regarding using pitch bend on Guitar \ Harmonica type melodies. I am been interested in doing this because I am not very good at it. At the keyboard Festivals the Yamaha Demonstrators use it with left hand when a chord is left running for the one bar or more.

QUESTION....What's the ideal technique, do you push the pitch bend over first and then lot it return after you have hit the note?

Graham UK

Reading all these posts makes me see how "different" we all are as players of arranger keyboards. Some use pitch wheels others none, some use certain pedals for things, others none, some use chord hold others none, full keyboard, and on and on. But in the end its all in "what it sounds like" when your playing no matter how you accomplish it.

Play On!!

I like to bend "up" to a note the way a guitarist would, so if your target is a "C" bend a "Bb" till you get there ! (re: "Sleepwalk")Rarely will you need to bend more than a full step,(sometimes 1/2 is plenty) unless you're doing a Van Halen set, or some other guitar-intensive style. (Metal)

About two decades back I got to play with a monophonic Roland synth that had a switch to set bend-up or bend-down to afeter touch. I wonder if this is a possible way around.

I normally take my left hand off the chords, but if the bend and the chord change come too close to each other, I have to compromise either the chord change or the bend.

BTW, one thing I like Korg over Yamaha is the joystick; I was never good at bending with the wheel by one semitone when the maximum was set to two. Never thought of assigning it to a pedal either. ..should give it a try.

Thanks
Shiral

Graham: I typically trigger pitch bend (1/2 step note bend) a split second before I play the note I want to bend 'up to' on the keyboard, and then release the pitch bend almost immediately. This creates the impression of approaching (sliding) the note from 1/2 step below. I generally apply pitch bend when approaching the longer notes.

Many of the principal soloing guitar notes (which benefit from pitch bend) occur 'right on' the chord changes, so I can't figure out how you guys are able have your left hand finger triggering the new chord and playing the pitch wheel 'at the same' time. hmmmm. I don't know about you guys (and gals), but I only have 2 hands. I hope to hear MORE from others on this.

Donny: I agree with you that it's "what it sounds like when you're playing" that really counts, but I think utilizing pitch bend (especially for country tunes) is an essential element to making a country tune sound 'authentically' country.

I concur with AJ (Bluezplayer) & Shiral re: joystick vs wheel. I used to own a Korg O1W/FD synth and miss having the joystick. I wish that Yamaha (and others) would replace the pitch/mod 2 wheel combination with a single joystick. I wonder why they did this? Are two wheels cheaper to manufacter than a single joystick (or the other way around)?

This is truly a special forum to me because it gives us all here an opportunity to share our many different & varied arranger playing styles, which then leads to each of us exploring new techniques we may never (individually) have considered before. Arranger keyboard playing is a relataively new art and requires special skills. I think the mainstream music community is beginning to finally take notice of what we do. - Scott

Scott,
Aftertouch is another way of bending a sound ! I rarely use mod. wheel ! dano
Another thing that I do on my Sd1 is double up or double down the right hand harmony . Particularily a steel guitar ! Over and out ! Dano

Since this discussion started it has prompted me to spend more time looking into this pitch bending thing.....I have found that the D-Beam on my Roland EM2000 works well if set to pitch bend amongst its many options....and would you believe I can keep playing my left hand chords because I can lean forward and trigger the D-Beam with my head....Now how about that for an option. HA!!!
Also the aftertouch works possibly even better, but the technique to do this requires more practice.

Graham UK

Uncle Dave:

I totaly agree.. I almost always bend up but rarely more than to a whole step...I have been emulating guitar for so long that it is a natural task for me. I don't even think about it anymore..kind of a similar reflex response to driving with a clutch. Now with a harmonica sound the bend often goes down just a hair or back and forth as I'm playing the notes.

Scott,

I also begin to trigger the bend as I'm about to play the note. As I said, it is such a reflex response that I almost actually have to do it manually and think about this when I want to describe it.

Shiral,

Same thing here..sometimes one thing or the other has to GO.. and it's a tough choice lol..I can't emulate guitar at all without bending..
I'd only assign it with a pedal if there was some way to control it to varying degrees. A half step or full step bend without some "bend" within the bend..would totally mess up my bending technique
( variation of bend within the bend might be a better choice ..man I'm confused when I actually try to DESCRIBE this stuff :-) )

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 01-13-2002).]

AJ,

This (bending by steps this way) might be a good way to emulate hammering and short trills (of course, if my toe/foot is quick enough :-)).

Shiral

[This message has been edited by shiral (edited 01-13-2002).]

I remember having some organs that had a slide pedal by the volume pedal. Another had a knee lever.
I agree it's hard to describe what you're doing when you've been doing it so long that's it's automatic.
A couple of times (G800, PA80) I had a joystick, I was awkward with it at first, but quickly learned to like it. It should be an option on Yamaha.
DonM

I find the best way to emulate what I do playing blues guitar is to assign aftertouch to pitch bend for guitar lead sounds. It seems most natural to have the hand playing the notes that are bent to do the bending. I keep my A-50 keyboard controller (with polyphonic aftertouch) since it allows me to bend two notes at once to different degrees. It is the lack of aftertouch, more than any other factor, that would keep me from getting a PSR-2000.

Can you actually control the aftertouch of two notes with different pressures at the same time? I'm impressed.
Aftertouch has always been a burdon for me. Never found peace with it.

Same here UD..I just don't seem to have the same level of ability to control just how the note bends if I use aftertouch. For me a note has to bend just right and I can't do it as accurately using aftertouch.

AJ

Usually aftertouch isn't polyphonic and most synths provide channel aftertouch where whichever key has the greatest pressure is applied to ALL notes on that channel.

But even channel aftertouch can be very effective. Uncle Dave, if you haven't found aftertouch to be useful you simply haven't tried it with the right patches. Obviously it only applies to sounds that are sustained while the pressure is applied such as pads, electric pianos, brass parts etc. I particularly like aftertouch to increase/decrease filter & resonance on pads and also to provide tremelo or vibrato on electric piano sounds. It's great to hold an electric piano chord and bring in a tremolo effect as it rings off.

all great suggestions Nigel, but I have such a heavy left hand that the effect is always being triggered falsly. I never had an instrument with poly aftertouch, so I guess I'll never know.

Ud,
When I met you , I kinda noticed that you were leaning a little to the left .
I now know why ...... you have a heavy left hand ! dano

You're a RIOT, Alice ! Bang ..... Zoooom !

If someone brought out an arranger keyboard with "one-note" aftertouch, I would have to consier getting it. It would be useful to bend one note out of a chord, as Pedal Steel guitar players to.
Anybody know I way to do this on arrangers?
DonM

Polyphonic (or "key") aftertouch means that aftertouch information is associated with each note that is played. Monophonic (or "channel") aftertouch means that aftertouch information is sent out per MIDI channel and applies to all notes sent on that channel. To get two notes to bend different amounts, polyphonic aftertouch is required. However, as Nigel says, there is a lot that can be done with monophonic aftertouch.

Due to the added mechanical complexity, not many keyboards support polyphonic aftertouch. I am not aware of any in production. However, it is not hard to implement electronically so many modules and keyboard synths will respond correctly to polyphonic aftertouch. Keyboards that generate polyphonic aftertouch include: Roland A-50, Roland A-80, Kurzweil MIDI Board, GEM S2 and S3, Ensoniq SQ1 and EPS, Yamaha DX1, and not very many others. It's a shame, because polyphonic aftertouch feels very "natural" and is the most expressive controller available in MIDI.

However, there is another issue that affects the usefulness of aftertouch for pitch bends, and that is the resolution of the aftertouch. Aftertouch resolution is apparently not critical when aftertouch is used to control vibrato, etc. However, to emulate a guitar, smooth pitch bends are required. I am not sure that even 128 levels is enough and I seem to recall some synths implement a sort of double-precision for pitch bend information. On the other hand, many keyboards that implement aftertouch do not even provide 128 levels. This is the problem with my PSR8000 and it does not do pitch bends well. I have been able to get the effect I want on my A-50 driving my XV-5080. Some of the patches on the Roland Fantom use aftertouch efectively to control pitch bend.

The moral of the story is you cannot assume that because a keyboard has aftertouch that it is suitable for controlling pitch bend. Try before you buy.

[This message has been edited by Clif Anderson (edited 01-14-2002).]

Aftertouch ?
This I know for sure . On the Sd1 I can take one sound and apply aftertouch ( editable) .
I can than harmonize that one sound with what Ketron terms as "octaveup" or "octave down" . That gives me the same voice at different octaves , both responding to aftertouch at the same time ! Take a pedal steel guitar and have them play 2 seperate octaves and have assignable aftertouch !
Also the Sd1 allows you to combine 4 sounds at a time and aftertouch can be applied to any one of the 4 combined sounds . You can even "double up" or "double down" the combined sounds called "PROGRAMS" . Very cool ! dano/ketronguy

Hi DanO

If you assign aftertouch to pitch bend on the SD1, is does the pitch change smoothly when activated by aftertouch? This is something that will probably depend on the pitch bend range. It may be smooth for a full-tone bend but not an octave bend.

Clif

Cliff ,
I also add a little portamento with the steel guitar sound . It's kinda of cool ! dano