Folks I have a quesiton and I'm not sure if anyone has tried this yet or if it's even an option on the Tyros 2.

In regards to the new SA voices-specifically the nylon/classical/acoustic guitars-can you adjust velocity curve settings to cancel out "individual" nuances?

Here's the problem, and I consider this a "real" problem because (I personally as a guitarist) know that the nuances in the SA guitars aren't exactly correct. Let's face it, either the nuance is correct or it's not.

These new SA guitars have string "sliding noise". Most often called "Fret Noise". (Even though fret noise is technically the wrong term for this particular nuance)

If I'm playing a live guitar, and just playing simple chords such as going from D to G--using the standard hand position there is NO string noise between these chord changes, yet it's present and "very" obvious on the T2, and people are so willing to accept this as sounding correct--when it's not.

Why did the Yamaha engineers add this nuance when switching between basic chords on the T2? Regardless of how nice it sounds to others, it doesn't belong there. Even going from single notes to other single notes produces string slide noise even if the distance from one note to the next is minimal. (this can be seen in one of the T2 video demos).

Did Yamaha just assume that the chords you'll use will always be bar chords? You can't even properly finger pick from one basic chord to another on the T2 without the board addind the noise.

Can this be adjusted? I don't want to upset the T2 owners out ther, but hey I'll say it again, it's either correct or it's not.

Squeak

they did it simply to make the instrument sound more authentic which it certainly does. It is not done to make the instrument sound and play exactly like a guitar as that simply is imossible on any keyboard.There was no need for yamaha to model the instrument to the nth degree because it wold not have added any more realism to the listener. There are no actual hand slide visual movement as far as the listener is concerned and hey wont know what chord changes triggers a slide sound from which would not.All they know i that the hand slide "sounds " appropriate . Sometimes we are overly analytical in these matters. think back to the first tike you heard the T2 demos and at classical guitar....didnt it just blow you away ??? thats exactly what it does to your audience the first time they here it. To them your instrument is still a magic box of tricks that can emulate guitars, saxes etc.

I agree with spalding.

You have an easy solution. Just don't use the Guitar SA voices. The regular LIVE voices have the same realism without all the extra gimmicks.

Chony

I wouldn't change a thing about the SA guitars.
I just love 'em...especially the "Concert Guitar"...absolutely perfectly imperfect.

Ian the Contented

Posted by Spalding,

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There are no actual hand slide visual movement as far as the listener is concerned and hey wont know what chord changes triggers a slide sound from which would not.All they know i that the hand slide "sounds " appropriate .
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You see this is my point. Do you have any idea how insulting that is to your crowd to take that position. A performer shouldn't take the position that the audience doesn't know any better. When you're performing, even though it's you performing, 9 times out of ten you're not the only one in the room who is a musician.

I just think it's wrong to assume your audience doesn't know any better. You'd be surprised how many people out there listening to you are fellow musicians.

There's a fine line between being picky, and a sound just being wrong. You gotta draw the line somewhere, but it's very wrong to assume your listeners think it's appropriate.

And no the guitars didn't "blow" me away. The saxes however made me wet my pants You have to take into consideration that the odds of several guitarists listening to you play are very high (the guitar is a very popular instrument). From the first time I heard the SA voices I knew they were wrong.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-12-2006).]

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-12-2006).]

You are correct Squeak.

The Saxes are excellent.

I also loved the Trumpets...simply deluxe.

Ian the Contented.

My 'understanding' is that the fret noise is added on a time basis(perhaps random, I do not know)and is not triggered by individual chords.

The T2 is not a guitar and does not claim to be. But it does come closer (in my hearing, which is not all that good anymore) than any other synth that I have owned. They may have a way to go for true realism (however, they are making progress), but I am grateful that they made it thus far.

Regards,

Michael

I still don't agree with you Squeak,

The Tyros is not a guitar -- its a keyboard. A sax and trumpet player would also find problems with the way the SA effects work on those instruments. How on earth could you expect the keyboard to know if you are playing fretted or open chords?

My experience with guitarists is that they are absolutely blown away with the Tyros guitars. There's probably a simple reason for that: They don't expect them to be perfect -- guitar technique has almost nothing in common with a piano technique -- so how could it be?

With all due respect I think you're complaints are unreasonable. The concept is great, and in my personal opinion nobody has done a better job.

As a guitarist though, I can understand your frustrations!

Chony

You're right Squeak, the audience often has musicians in it, WATCHING ME WORK while they are not! Let 'em think what they want!
DonM

As I have been playing with acoustic jazz musicians I have become more aware of the different sounds as they are presented on the Tyros 2. In general I guess the acoustic diehard will find arranger keyboards gimmicky. They tell me it doesn't sound real that it sounds fake. I have heard them say things like "do you want to know how degrading it is to have horns playing in the background for a real sax or guitar player?" etc, etc, etc.

I think some musicians are actually intimidated by an arranger kb. Although I doubt they would admit it, and I'm sure they don't recognize it that way. And of course for them there is the slap in the face that I as a solo performer can get as much money as a band gets.

And yet, when people come to say how good the band sounds or to want to hire the band , the almost invariably come to me, the "sideman" instead of the 2 "primary" players.

I have also been told by one of the owners of a current ongoing gig that I have, who first heard me play with a quintet with the same sax player, and band leader, that I sound better alone, than the band and have more class. (Just stating what happened not trying to wave my own flag).

I also have people come up to the restaurant entrance where I am playing outside and they tell me they thought a live band was playing.

This type of experiences have unnerved me a bit. It's a rather interesting situation to be dealing with. It makes me pay more critical attention to what I'm doing and how the instrument sounds.

So I'm just trying to make a few points here about the sound of these arrangers and what people are saying.

My slant is, it is what it is and either a person likes it or doesn't, just like my personal choices for music and the way I play it.

I think if a player doesn't like a sound, then they can either tweak it. You could reduce the amount of "fret noise", or you could pick the Nylon string guitar.

As far as the other capabilities of the SA voices, like a horn player breathing and a guitar player hitting the top of the guitar to hear that knocking sound.........Well, I'll leave that up to the individual, but I'll tell you that I turned off the pedal control for those types of things on the SA voices and use it for something that is actually important to my performance.

Scott

Hi Squeak
A bit off topic but have you tried this keyboard Guitar software. (VST)
http://www.musiclab.com/products/realgtr_info.htm

Bill

Just giving my opinion on the matter folks. If the guitar sounds work for you that's great. I however, am not one of those jerky guitar players who feel threatened by arranger (or any keyboard) for that matter.

I'm a pianist/keyboardist first and a guitarist/drummer (second and third). I just wanted to give you an opinion from someone who is also a guitarist, and knows the instrument.

I don't expect the T2 to read your playing so perfectly. I just thought that if it was an already existing feature on the T2, and if not maybe it would be a good idea for Yamaha--in the future--to allow the user to adjust velocity curves to have better control over nuances within signature voices.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-13-2006).]

After player professional guitar for 40 years I feel the guitars on the Tyros 2 are great. The trumpets have improved a great deal – I am not trilled with the way the sax sounds.

Wow, how could all these opinions on this forum be right or possibly wrong? There are neither right or wrong, they are just opinions based on what the individual normally listened to. So we edit until we have what we want, which may or may not be what others like.

As far as fret noise --- Using the same guitar and the same amp. two different players will not get the same fret noise – the better player normally gets less. So where are we fret noise, although it adds realism to the guitar sound my question has to be, “Who’s realism?”

I worked with the same sax player for many years, when he listened to the Tenor sax on my KN7000 he did not like it, but he loved the guitar sounds. My opinion was that I did not like the guitar sounds but I thought the Tenor sax sounds were great.

Now Yamaha has to do their best to satisfy all these people --- I feel that they doing one great job.

These are only my opinions, John C.

PS, More jobs are killed by the a poor Sound system or the improper use of one than the keyboard.

i dont think that it is insulting to any audience to think that they had come to enjoy your music rather than analyse how he music was put togteher and be able to descriminate between every nuance of a particular sound. I assume that when they come to enjoy your music , if you have done your job well they will simply emjoy your music.Afterall they are paying you for that and not the technical difficulties that a keyboard has in emulating another instrument. I guess you must play to a real tough audience that really make you earn your money (smile) just keep making great music , the technology will keep on getting better. Just go back to how that guitar was before SA came on the seen. I am certain that not many people noticed that the keyboard guitar coiuldnt slide notes or play legato like it can now.

Actually the ability to slide a guitar note, and play it legato on a keyboard came out in the late eighties/early nineties, although it was normally only on sample based keyboards/expanders. (Not forgetting the Akai samples that were introduced, and which became pretty much the industry standard)
It’s also been available in Giga samples and VST instruments in the last few years.

Bill

Getting back to playing a guitar patch on a keyboard..You definitly can play with the right technique and voicing to sound like a realistic guitar[especially acoustic].. I have a friend that played mid 80 instruments that could fool many people and musicians..He could do the same playing drums on keys or a drum machine[pads]..