Hi,
Can someone tell me the pros and cons of the Yamaha PSR 9000 and the new Korg PA-80. I would like to buy one of them. Can someone tell me which one is a better keyboard?

I need a keyboard that has preset styles which play with chords.

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Sri

A further addition:

I had purchased a Korg Triton-Pro Music workstation. I liked it but it did not suit me as it didn't have any preset styles. So even if I had to play a small song(live performance), I had to record the beats and chords.

I then purchased a Yamaha PSR-740. I liked it but the sound quality and sound banks are not as good as Korg.

I am still in a fix weather to purchase the Korg PA-80 or the Yamaha PSR-9000.

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Sri

I'll give my spin:
The Yamaha is bigger, heavier & more expensive to start with - however it comes with the vocal harmonizer as standard equipment; the Korg is an option. The things that interrest me most about the PA80 are:
1)smaller size
2)Dual inputs for Voice & guitar with effects
3)Dual sequencer - sounds like a neat idea
4)Lower price
5)Expected better handling of polyphony in layering situations, and overall "cooler" rhythm patterns. This has been my opinion for a few years now. Korg was always a little "hipper" than the rest, escpecially in the bass parts. I thought the X1 was terrific also, but there were a few irreconcilable differences in the operating system that I couldn't deal with. So......we wait. Make sure you try them both for quite a while before you decide - these are complex machines.

I haven't played either keyboard. I happen to own the PSR 740. I was kind of surprised when I read the specs on the PA-80 that there are only two rhythm fills. The PSR-9000 has four rhythm fills. I think there's a lot more you can do with a song when you have four fills as opposed to two. Two rhythm fills might sound repetitive. Does the PA-80 have multi pads like the PSR 9000? There are a lot of cool things you can do with the multi pads.

Yes, the PA80 will have 4 multi pads too.

Thanks for your opinions. I guess the fills was a good point. I don't know how important it is though.

I would like another advice:

Can you suggest me other keyboards that fall into the PSR-9000 and PA-80 category so that I can try out each one of them and then decide.
Moreover can u tell me where I can try out these keyboards? I tried at many music stores, but everyone tells me that these products are to be ordered from the company and that the store does nto have a floor model on display. Do you know of any store that stocks these products. I live in Chicago so any store near by would help.

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Sri

the main differences
-PA 80 has 61 notes polyphony, PSR9000 128
-PA 80 has less effects and DSPs than PSR9000
-PA 80 can't sample
-PA 80 is less powerful synthesizer than PSR 9000 (less filters, less layers)
-PA 80 doesn't have the excellent vocal processor and harmonzier than PSR 900 has
-PA 80 has better drum sounds than PSR9000
-PA 80 has dual sequencer
-

[This message has been edited by Shakil (edited 01-09-2001).]

Sri,

You should be able to find a Solton dealer in the Chicago area. The X1 is a fine keboard and the new Sd-1 should be even better. I would certainly check these out.

Tom

I'm repeating myself, myself but the 126 note polyphony on the psr9000 is a scam - it sucks it up worse than my 32 voice Korg. Voice allocation is terrible.
And don't forget - the vocal /guitar processor is an add on - should be great too because it adds two more dedicated effects to the unit.

I've played the 9000 every night for about 8 months and have not yet run out of polyphony.
DonM

Uncle Dave,

What is the vocal/guitar processor that you are talking about? What does it do?
Appreciate any info you can give.


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Ed

Don,

I love my psr9000, but I do find myself running out of polyphony. Mostly, when I use piano and strings together and use sustain pedal with fast runs up keyboard.

126 notes polyphony - I thought I would never run out. Oh, well, it only happens occasionally.


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Ed

I think what Dave is talking about is one of Yamaha's plug in boards. Yamaha makes several plug ins that can be installed into the PSR9000Pro. These boards include more polyphony, more effects and in most cases, more midi channels. There is one board which is the vocal processor board which adds a vocal harmonizer and additional effects, and this is probably what he is talking about. However, there is already the same vocal processor in the PSR9000 series and I don't know if you will be able to install this second unit. I've wondered about this and I will have to check this out.
George Kaye

George,

Dave was talking about the VHG1 voice/guitar processor board option for Korg Pa80:

Hardware options include a vocal/guitar board that gives you two totally separate effect processors. In Guitar mode you have a complete set of multi-effects, e.g. modulation, noise reduction, distortion and compression, plus equalisation and you can use up to five effects simultaneously. The vocal processor includes a harmoniser that turns a single vocal into a four-part harmony, plus offers you effects and equalisation.

Paul Ip
from Texas

Paul & George,

Thanks for the info. Do you know if there are any other options(or software) other then the foot controller, that really make a difference in the sound of the unit? Not that I am dissatified, but I'm always looking. I have the psr9000 not the pro.
Thanks

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Ed

Paul's right. I was refering to the PA80 vocal/guitar board. The Yamaha problem is evident when you play the best sounds layered with the best sounds and try to play big chords with the right hand. If all you do is use the arranger and play melodies, or simple chords - you may not notice it, but I need to be able to lay into thick piano/string pads and I use the sustain pedal alot so it's a wash for me. Even with all the rhythm OFF - try this:
Layer the #1 piano with the #1 string sound and play a two handed piano style song with alot of sustain like......Memory or All I ask of you - something juicy like that. It coughs like a dying smoker. Most of the better sounds have too many notes tied up in the sound to be effective in layering. 126 goes like lightning when every finger uses up 16 or more partials. Adf the sustail to that and you hic-cup like crazy.

Hi George

According to the 9kPro manual, you cannot use the vocal harmony board in the 9kPro. Its too bad, because it might have been useful when applied to vocal samples.

Note, if you hold the sustain long enough, any synth will run out of polyphony. It is because of the layering possibilities that Yamaha's 126 notes of polyphony can seem like much less. Each patch can have four layers and you can layer three patches. This would leave about 12-note polyphony, which is easily exhausted using a sustain. Yamaha could avoid this problem by reducing the amount of layering available to us, but most would rather have the option. The reduction of polyphony due to layering is not a Yamaha-specific problem. I have the relatively new Roland XV-5080; I can easily configure it in performance mode so that its 128-note polyphony is reduced to 1-note polyphony. (Kurzweil's VAST is less prone to extreme polyphony reduction, but it starts with a max of 44 notes.)

The 9kPro addresses the specific situation of running out of polyphony using sustained piano runs, because you can add a piano card that adds 64 more notes of polyphony for the piano sound.

MisterED,

About Yamaha PSR9000's capability, I can think of a few things:

Have you used the sampling feature of 9000 yet? With a pair of optional 32 MB SIMMs you can have a total of 65 MB of sampling memory. You can record, save and load sounds as wave files with optional internal hard disk / external SCSI storage via your 9000's SCSI port. 65 MB of sampling is equivalent to more than 13 minutes of sound.

Clif is right that with sustaining and heavy sound layering any synth can easily run out of polyphony. Have you tried layering sounds with a different keyboard or sound module using MIDI B out port of your 9000?

Have you tried playing MIDI files with lyrics (karaoke files with .MID as file extension) and output the lyrics display on an external TV screen with the RCA video cable hookup at the back of your 9000?

How about using the built-in harmonizer for effects/harmony on sound input from another sound source/keyboard through the left-front mic/line input jack?

Have you installed Yamaha CBX driver on your PC(s) such that you can use software on your desktop/laptop to communicate with your 9000 through its "To Host" serial port so you can try software packages linked to the following page?
http://home7.inet.tele.dk/js/musik/740pages/link7406.htm

Paul Ip
from Texas

". Each patch can have four layers and you can layer three patches. This would leave about 12-note polyphony, "

Doesn't 9KPro have 8 layers per patch? I know PSR9000 has 8 layers. I was just wondering if the synth engine is different from PSR9000.

Hello Sri,

I have been playing the PSR 9000 for one year and tested the PA-80 yesterday. So I can say you my oppinion.
Yesterday I was very surprised when I heard the PA-80 piano. It sound very well, very exciting, better than the PSR 9000's one. It has also nice tenor sax. But the other instruments, I tested, were not as realistic as on the PSR 9000 (guitars, organs, flute, brass, chromatic percussion). I did not hear synthesizer voices on the PA-80 (which are sure its strength), because I use them very seldom. So in the instruments competition I would definitely vote for the PSR 9000.
I also did not like the standard drum kit on the PA-80, it sounded too artificial (the other drum kits were very good). The live! standard kit on the PSR 9000 is (according to my taste) rather better than the PA-80's one.
The PA-80 has very nice styles, but I had not time to test all the styles. I was disappointed with many Latin styles and liked Ballad styles. Here I cannot say which keyboard has better styles, on the PSR 9000 you will sure find an appropriate style (from the 210 factory styles) for many songs.
I also find the PSR 9000 easier to play live than the PA-80.
About the PSR 9000 there were already written many articles, so I suggest you could go to the japan Yamaha site to experience about the features, visit e.g. the Harmony Central site and read the opinions of the PSR 9000 players AND go to a music shop and try both keyboards, because that is the best criterion for your choice.

Regards

Marek

P.S.: For others: Please distinguish the PSR 9000 and the 9000Pro (without PSR), in order not to cause any confusion.

The Yamaha can use 8 Samples to make up one sound, (and many do) and so, effectively, a two handed jazz chord for example that uses 8 samples, and with just two layers, would take up 128 notes (you have only 126 notes on the Yamaha) - if two hands were playing 4 notes - c6 chord for example (CEGA)

The polyphony on the Yamaha is very deceiving, and claims 126-note polyphony. Well - that's true in a sense, but the fact that you need 8 samples per note to make a full sound can leave you coming unstuck. It has been said that a Yamaha with 4 samples per note (like my kn6000) will not sound as good, and so needs these extra samples to make the full sound up.

It is for this reason, that I didn't make the change to a Yamaha 9000 from a kn6000, as Polyphony was important to me. I will add a sound module soon to make that "Polyphony" up - which one though - I don't know. I was going for a JV1080 - but it is getting towards 5 years old now, (about March 96 it was released I think) and I know it probably still sounds great, but with the new XV3080/5080 now out, it would be wise for me to save up a little more money, and go for one of those instead.

I think Cliff meant "Samples" and not layers, or maybe the Yamaha pro does only do "4" samples per note.

It's worth noting that I've never "seemed" to run out of polyphony on the 64-voice kn6000. (Which "Only" does 4 samples per note) Maybe when I'm playing away, the odd drum hi-hat, etc drops out, but if I can't notice it, my 10,000 screaming fans won't neither!)

Jupiter5


[This message has been edited by Jupiter5 (edited 01-10-2001).]

Paul Ip,

Thanks for all the suggestions. I just have a couple of questions?
1) If I get the extra memory for the sampler will I be able to use all of the wave samples I keep seeing advertised on the net and if I do use these samples, how good are they?

2) Great idea using the mike input on the front of the keyboard for running an addtional module, but how should I set the switch?

Thanks for your help.

Hi Shakil and Jupiter

My numbers for the 9kPro might not be right, I did not check the manual for my reply. It is probably the same for the 9kPro and the PSR9k.

I am also not sure about the following, but I do not think that Jupiter5's polyphony analysis is correct. Just because a voice uses 8 samples, does not mean it uses 8 voices of polyphony when played. Normally, the 8 samples are switched by key position or velocity rather than layered. In that case an 8-sample voice would only use one voice of polyphony per note when played.

But I might be wrong. I will try to find time to check the 9kPro manual on this.

Clif

MisterEd,

About your two questions, there is insufficient information so I cannot answer to your satisfaction:

1. Can you elaborate a bit more as to which sites you see the wave samples? Different wave samples may act differently in your PSR9000. If you do not record samples for yourself, the best wave samples to look at are those customized for PSR9000 so you do not have to worry sample loop point ... etc. PSR9000 allows wave recording of up to 32 MB but I have not tried loading wave samples with 32 MB or more in size to the sampling SIMMs - so I cannot confirm whether PSR9000 can load wave file larger than 32 MB, I speculate that the limit per wave file for loading is also 32 MB. How many samples can you load into 65 MB of SIMMs depends on the size of the wave files and how many of these you use for the range of keys you define per custom voice. The more samples you use per custom voice, the less number of custom sounds you can use. That is why you need a hard disk to store different wave sample files. For the 8 GB of hard disk space that PSR9000 can recognize, I use the first 2 GB partition just for styles, the second 2 GB partition just for songs, the third 2 GB partition just for wave sample files, the last 2 GB partition for miscellaneous system backups, exported factory and flash styles, mainly used as scratchpad for development before moving the final products to the other 3 partitions.

2. For the front mic/line input jack there is a three-position switch (mic1, mic2 and line) to set for impedance matching, and use the round knob below the switch for input level adjustment depending on how hot the input signals are. You can connect external sound source through the input jacks at the back of the PSR9000 but the sounds will not be processes by PSR9000's internal harmonizer and effects. Using the front mic/line input you can press the rightmost column of buttons for vocal harmony effects (especially the DSP(8) and VH buttons) for effects setup. You can also hit the third button in the digital studio section to access the Mixing Console for effects fine tuning for microphone/line sounds (at the very bottom row of the parts setting page). You can experiment different settings and the key is to get hot enough signals without distortion.

Paul Ip
from Texas

Paul Ip,

Thanks again for info, sorry I didn't reply sooner, but the whole family has been sick(including myself) with a stomach virus.

Does Yahama sell samples specifically for the PSR9000.

One thing I'm surprised at is that I haven't seen any manuals that delve deeper into the PSR9000?



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Ed

Hi Mister Ed

I seem to recall that there is an aftermarket manual for the PSR9000--but it's in German.

Clif

[This message has been edited by Clif Anderson (edited 01-13-2001).]

Clif,

Thanks for the info, but unfortunately, I cannot speak German. If you happen to hear of something in English, please let me know.

Thanks

MisterEd,

I could not find any samples dedicated to PSR9000/9000 Pro released by Yamaha. However, a member of this forum Eric B. mentioned that Peter Schips in Germany has made dedicated samples for PSR9000/9000 Pro for sale. I also went to the PSR9000 German site to look at the forum and found that Peter Schips is indeed very active and knowledgeable there. Since you do not know German, if you click the following link you will enter the site in English translation:
http://babel.altavista.com/translate.dyn?lp=de_en&doit=done&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cd-soft.de

You can listen to the demos of samples at that site to decide to try it or not.

I personally have not purchased any samples from CD Soft and so I have no comments on the quality of samples and services.

Paul Ip
from Texas

[This message has been edited by Paul Ip (edited 01-13-2001).]

Paul,

Thanks for the info - I check out and update you.



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Ed

The company in Germany, Peter Schips is working for, is called CD-Soft ( http://www.cd-soft.de ). The samples you can purchase there for the PSR9000 (and also for the PSR8000) are the best you can get for your PSR. I've compared what Yamaha is offering and what you can order from CD-Soft. I would never change my CD-Soft disc's against original Yamaha discs!! Try out the demos you can download for free.

Ulrich