Every church should have an organ (be it pipe or electronic)and a piano (acoustic or digital). Beyond that, whatever else that can be used to make a joyful noise should be considered with respect for the congregation and the types of music played and sung.

I must have stumbled on the wrong forum. The obvious answer is an Arranger keyboard!

That's what we use, and we reverently and joyfully praise the lord!

Graham

A few weeks ago I was playing a wedding reception which was booked as such......when I got there I was informed and a request put in that they wanted me to ALSO play the Ceremony & processional...surprise to me but no problem plus more money ....anyway I was so glad I use a Ketron Sd1+ because the organs are wonderful and without a hitch I played the ceremony and the Full Organ sound was incredible sounding like a huge Church Pipe Organ........the flexibility of an Arranger in the right hands if second to none & can be construed to be used in almost any situation!

You praise Him with whatever you got...

The Lord doesn't care whether it's a 30 rank pipe organ or a melodica. Just praise Him.

Arranger keyboard, especially the high end models such as PSR3000, Tyros, etc are very much suited for the worshipping church.

They offer lots of possibilities from the hymnal type songs with lots of organs to the contemporary popular worship songs.

The contemporary worship songs nowadays use a wide range of rythms and arranger keyboard handles those very well. With my currently upgraded skills, the results sounded like a full band and nobody will notice the differences at all. I used manual bass for added realism. Without the left hand manual bass, the feeling of a live band and the neccesary accents will be missing greatly.

arranger every time !!! i see no genuine reason to buy any other keyboard instrument for worship.

To accompany a soloist you can use the arranger in piano/electric piano mode or even substitute the piano for an accoustic guitar played through the keyboard ! Or become the string section with cellos, violins and horns trigured by velocity switching.

For traditional worship you have just about every type of organ in the preset sounds of the instrument.

For contemporary worship you can get into some very energetic and lively praise worship and dance just by using the drum and bass elements of the arranger .

For group worship with other musicians you can play the instrument just as a stand alone keyboard or fill in the essential parts that might be missing say , you dont have a drummer , organist, brass section bass player , strings section etc

In group worship when there are no other musicians you can still get the full sound of a live band and can trim that down to just drum, bass, and keys and retain that intimate sound without a full orchestrated arrangement

For small venues and small groups who might worship from house to house or hire a room in a local school ( i know many who worship like this ) what could be better than an arranger ?????

And in the work that i do as a writer and arranger for my local church youth choir , remixing songs and injecting new enthusiasm and energy by simply trying out new styles is just something that has to be experienced to believe. i simply could not do what i do with any other type of instrument !!!!

I would never buy any other form of keyboard instrument ever.

No substitute for the original instrument, (Organ) (with portable ones available if required) and which Arranger Keyboards developed from.
Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

Try using that arranger and a few styles with "Now Thank We All Our God" and see where that gets you with the elders...

At the risk of violating something my parents taught me years ago which is "don't discuss religion with strangers" I would like to express my opinion. And since this is really more about the music than the actual religion I figure it's OK.

Not to offend anyone here but for me it's classical organ or piano and a hymnal, period. NO drums, guitars, no bells and whistles, etc. These contemporary services that are held today are annoying to me. It is pretty much all about the music. Sure the lyrics have a religious undertone but I think having a full band playing a set distracts from the rest of the service, which by the way is shortened severely so the band has more stage time. I went to a contemporary service a couple of weeks ago and the pastor gave about a 15 minute sermon (out of an hour). The rest of the time was spent suffering through a 5 piece band and four vocalists up front playing song after song. What made it even worse was the so-called music minister (minister, give me a break. Most of these guys play in bars on the weekend) who was the keyboardist, also had a light controller that he was fiddling with. That�s right a light controller�controlling par cans, pin spots, gobos. I didn�t see one but I wouldn�t be surprised if there was a mirror ball up there somewhere. It is church for crying out loud, not a rock concert. Sheez!!!

I realize that the whole contemporary service idea came about to entice younger individuals to attend church. But it doesn�t appear to be helping much. Personally I think it is the parents of the young people who need to instill in their children the reasons to attend church. Maybe another reason is that the contemporary service crowd is trying to make believe they are hip by embracing music that has a rhythm because of the popularity of certain music styles that their children are listening to today. If that is the case, then take the kids to a good old Pentecostal service. Not to blow holes in the rest of my ranting, but there is a place in church for a set of drums, and that place is sitting beside a B3. Now that�s a service!

And another thing that I think is very interesting is look at how many national artists got their start hiding under the [i]Christian Artist[i] label only to move into mainstream rock, country or what-have-you after they�ve milked the popular religious aspect and became famous. To me that stinks.

Nope, I�ll take a hymnal and ONE instrument to keep everyone in tune. Excluding the previously mentioned B3 and trap kit .


[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 08-03-2007).]

Dave... now you've done it. you've gone and offended the music gods, or shall I say those who worship God with music. I've go t my ark parked right outside the house, just up I-75. We'll hold the gangplank til you get here. I've got two Rogers, Allens, Johannuses; a couple Mohlers, Cassevantes, and even Hammonds, Wurlitzers and Conns. If you promise not to tell, I even stowed away a couple Steinways, Yamahas and Bosendorfers.

Heaven forbid we should say anything contrary modern worship - WWJD?

It all has to do with your personal taste and balance. In my church, I use the PA1x, a dgx-500 as a controller then have a guitar player who uses a half-stack Marshall. Yes, we ROCK THE HOUSE because that's what we like and the whole church is behind us and likes it too, mostly older people in fact. We are a new church, around 10 years old and are able to do what we feel God is telling us to do. Our main pastor is the one with the vision and she simply feels a direction to go and we go. There are plenty of other churches out there for anyone who doesn't like our style, direction, ministry, etc. We do have an elder board and she consults us, we decide things and work tem out together, when the few things come up that are controversial.

That aside, I have been using just a piano or arranger keyboard for years now and it works great for our style, which is heavy rock, R & B, gospel style.

Whatever helps you worship God should be what works.

BTW, we only have about 30 minutes of music and about 45 minutes of preaching.

Jeff

Like I said, I wasn't trying to offend anyone nor was I just trying to stir up an argument. There are others much better at that than me. lol.

And normally I tend to stay away from expressing opinions on the forums, but this one struck home a bit. I am all for anything that will keep people going to church. Although simply going to church for an hour or so on Sunday really isn't what it's all about. It's how the teachings influence you through the rest of the week and throughout your life. The point I was making is for me I would prefer to hear a well thought out sermon pertaining to todays problems rather than listen to a band. If you are into the Sunday morning rock concert, go for it. I suppose I'm just an old fashioned at heart.

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 08-03-2007).]

Im not a strict religious man but....
In your opinion would you have the same participation WITHOUT music in your church program....or is music used as a drawing factor in keeping people interested.

Well that's sort of what I'm talking about. And don't get me wrong, I'm all for music (right place, right time, right style and so forth). After all I've been playing and singing professionally for the past 30 some years. I just wish it were enough for people to attend church because they want to learn how to be better human beings by listening to someone, presumably more enlightened, share words of wisdom to live by. It is a pity that church membership seems to have dwindled as of late. And it is always sad to see a fading artist or in this case a fading organization in an attempt as a last ditch effort to re-gain the popularity they/it once had by trying to get with the times.

Again, I am not downing anyone else�s choices in how they choose to worship. Just expressing some thoughts.


[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 08-03-2007).]

Hold on a minute Dave. Church music has always been changing since the very first music was sung in a tent or at an stone altar. Original worship music according to Judaic and early christian tradition used inhstruments including a set of cymbals, the ,the 'tof' which is a hand held drum and with pipes and stringed instruments and even included dance! The equivalent of a modern day praise and worship band today !! I dont know if other churches use music as a 'attraction' to draw people in but the purpose of music in worship is to worship and praise God. Thats what attending church is actually for. Learning and studying is actually supposed to be done before you get to church !! The tradition of the church that i am assuming you are coming from is just that , a tradition. It has nothing to do with any pattern or formula passed down by God. I completely agree with you that in many cases people are just tripping on music. Just as some people believe church attendance on a sunday is all that they have to do to satisfy their requirement to serve God.They leave their faith there on the pughs until next sunday ! Thats not good for any church or any faith. And i dont believe in being contemporary just for the sake of it. But i have been to 'traditional' churches and have grown up in one and watched it die as many of them have and are dieing today because they have made the 'method' of understanding God through sermons on a sunday or Sabbath for 1 hour and a couple of hymns sung with an out of tune piano or organ as sacred. The method was never and should never be sacred ! The message is ! And i certainly am seeing a revival of sincere christians striving to serve God and live by the truths that they are studying in the week and sharing in worship in churches far and wide. The music is simply the expression of the joy they have found pouring out from them in the medium of contemporay relevant music ,sincerly given to worship God. Thank God, he is open and loving enough to allow us to use whatever we have to share our love for him in vibrant meaningful worship , whatever method is used.

An organ and piano does not make the worship anymore sincere.

PS you cant hear the tone of my voice so let me make it clear that i am in no way critisising you . I am just adding another one of many views on the subject of appropriate worship using instruments. No doubt you might get other views too.

But back to the point, an arranger is still the ideal instrument for worship as you can switch off the accompaniment if you want a more basic traditional sound...... But when the church realise that God existed before the 18th Century tradition in the hearts and minds of people and still does today in the 21st Century , it might want to switch on some of the acompaniment !!!! Try doing that with a pipe organ ......

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 08-04-2007).]

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 08-04-2007).]

Hi spalding,

Like I said above "Again, I am not downing anyone else�s choices in how they choose to worship. Just expressing some thoughts."

I agree with the points you made. I was just saying for me, (as you suggested) I prefer a more traditional service.

Dave

So, would that involve the Shofar...? http://www.piney.com/Shofar.html

Everybody's traditional music was once radical and new. Eventually, arrangers will be considered traditional!

Good discussion.

From my perspective, we use music to enhance people's worship throughout the service. It touches people at a different level than the word.

Many of the songs that we sing are more "singable" by a wide range of people than traditional hymns or more "classical" music. The contemporary harmonies are more in tune with what people are used to hearing than the pipe organ.....

I try to combine both in our service to appeal to as wide a group of people as I can.

Remember our job is give praise to our Lord, and to help each other on our spiritual path. The wonder and variety of human nature means we have to keep our approach to music as broad as possible.

Just my 2 cents....

Graham

Dave, maybe you got a few bad experiences that caused you to think this way. And I can understand what you experienced. But may I suggest not to close yourself out. You might be missing out. A few bad apples do not represent the whole harvest.

Have you been to many of the so called churches with contemporary worhsip style ? Have you been to a worship service where a Hillsongs group is in the house (Darlene Zsech, etc) ? This is the most sincere and most beautiful worship experience. They are contemporary but it is all about adoring God and millions of Christians around the world have been blessed with their songs and bands. Their songs are worship types of slow songs and some are upbeat types as well good for dancing.

BTW: David in the book of Psalms have certain worship styles that are FAR different than yours. Many time he was a dancing worshipper and would fits very well with the contemporary worship styles. And David got an awesome BIG seal of approval from the BIG GUY UPSTAIRS. The Bible says that King David was a man after His own heart. Many of his songs including the dancing types that would most likely fit with a very rythmic contemporary band and those songs were forever enshrined in the Bible.

In fact many of the songs in the Bible probably has those upbeat Israeli rythms and minor chords associated with Middle Eastern music.

Many of the churches that I attended plays many different styles including the hymns, the contemporary styles(both slow and upbeat) and even the ehtnic styles such as Middle Eastern, etc. Each song played well and anointed with the power of God is a very powerful thing that God uses to commune with us. Many signs and wonders - great miracles - such as spectacular healings and awesome display of miracles happened during and after such powerful worship service. The sermon was even enhanced by these songs and the pastor had a much easier time to convey the message.

Excerpt from:
http://www.lifeoftheworld.com/lotw/article.php?m_vol=2&m_num=1&a_num=1

How Not to Minister to the Different Generations

It has been said that the major problem of Baby Boomers is that they refuse to grow up. Though adults, they reject adult responsibilities. While this, like other generational assertions in this essay, is a sweeping generalization with many exceptions, it contains much truth.

For example, notice how aging Boomers still tend to listen to the same music they listened to when they were sixteen. We Baby Boomers (and remember I include myself in all of these criticisms) do not consider that it might be a sign of some infantile clinging to childhood when we do not allow our taste to change and mature. We tend to think that we are the ones who are not only cool but contemporary.

Many churches today feel the need to be contemporary. The assumption is that in order to reach people the church should throw off its old-fashioned styles and get with the times. The hoary liturgy should be done away with and those archaic hymns should be replaced with music people are listening to today.

Notice that these assumptions-that old forms are not relevant, that people today are somehow different from those of the past, that being alive means being entertained-are relics of the Baby Boomer generation. In fact, it is usually Baby Boomer pastors who are implementing these kinds of reforms.

Now here is the irony, which is immediately recognized by Generation X-ers-contemporary worship services, with their "contemporary" music, are seldom contemporary at all. The ubiquitous "praise songs" have more to do with the style of Peter, Paul and Mary than with actual contemporary music today.

Certainly, Baby Boomers often do demand their kind of music in church. This is another one of their (our) traits-to be demanding and self-absorbed and intolerant of other styles. The World War II generation never demanded worship styles with Big Band music.

It should also be recognized that what might work for the Baby Boomer mind does not necessarily work for Generation X-ers. Much of the panoply of church growth techniques are designed for the former. Generation X-ers tend to be skeptical of attempts to manipulate them. They tend to see right through slick programs and fake friendliness that many churches resort to in an attempt to reach them.

Though both Baby Boomers and Generation X-ers represent "lost generations," it may be that the latter holds more promise. Perhaps their children-already the subject of scrutiny as "Generation Y"-will achieve normalcy and the obsession with generational differences will fade away. In the meantime, it is instructive to note the yearning expressed by a number of X-ers for authenticity and spiritual substance.

Consider the Lutheran group Lost and Found, whose music with its "alternative" sound is genuinely contemporary, as opposed to, say, their Baby Boomer counterpart Barb and Dave. In their song, "Opener," they offer a Generation X flavored indictment of church-growth-style worship services. Instead, they crave substance, namely, the Body and Blood of Christ:

I'm looking for something stronger-Than my own life these days, Yet the church of my childhood-Seems like the YMCA.
Well, every Sunday-Is just like the last, As if the church has no history-And the people have no past.
We just sing what we like to sing-And we preach about the news, And think of some new thing-Just to fill up the pews.
I want palms on Palm Sunday-And Pentecost still to be red. I want to drink of the Wine-And eat of the Bread.
And they search for attendance-While I starve for transcendence. But I count among this Body-Of both the living and the dead.

The poignant emphasis the singer puts upon the word starve-"while I starve for transcendence"-expresses well the spiritual dilemma of our day. The Baby Boomers, in their narcissism, prefer a touchy-feely, emotional, entertaining, self-aggrandizing approach to everything from education to the workplace, including church. The next generation-casualties of what the Boomers have done to the culture-are often cynical, depressed and sometimes to the point of nihilism. They yearn for something real and authentic, but everything they see in this media-saturated commercialistic culture they have inherited seems phony. Maybe everything is phony, which is a refrain of postmodernism, so that the only proper response is a detached yet bitter irony.

Churches, tragically, play into this perception. Most churches today have been taken over by the Baby Boomer mentality, exhibiting the values of mass-market commercialism, the rejection of the past and hedonistic individualism. Meanwhile, those who may never have known a stable family yearn for a sense of belonging to some community bigger than themselves. They are "looking for something stronger/than my own life." They "starve for transcendence."

This is why I believe Lutheranism holds such potential for the next century if churches can be found to practice it. To a generation hungering for belonging, we can offer membership in a "Body-Of both the living and the dead." To those hungering for something real, we can offer the Real Presence of Jesus Christ.

The other good news for the church is that we Baby Boomers are getting old and will soon die out.

From Generation to Generation

It is true that American society today is generationally segmented. In fact, more generations and sub-divisions of generations have been identified. Even within a particular generation, there are hosts of sub-groups. These often identify themselves with trivial signs, such as taste in music.

Notice what happens when a church aims itself, through its music or worship style, at one particular generation or sub-group. The others, in this generational and cultural crazy-quilt that is the typical American congregation, will be alienated. What is happening in church will appear to be geared for the particular privileged group.

When churches go to a "contemporary service," older parishioners of the World War II generation object. How could they be expected not to? Those who have devoted their lives to the church for decades feel, as one told me, that "they have taken away my church." It is unfair to categorize such objections, as is often done, as being overly tradition-bound or as some unwillingness to evangelize. They are responding both to the feeling of being unwanted in their own church and to the fact that they can hardly worship in such an alien language.

The answer, however, is not to give them a Big Band service. Nor to give Generation X a punk or hip-hop or death metal service. The answer is in the genius of the hymnbook.

When we are singing hymns in church, we are not following the preferred "style" of anyone in the congregation. This is church music, wholly different, whatever its origins, from the currently preferred musical taste of any of the generations assembled to worship. No one is offended; no one is excluded; everyone is lifted out of a particular time, generation or in-group, into the extra-ordinary experience of worship.

In The Lutheran Hymnal, one can hardly find a trace of Glenn Miller, though his band was very big in 1941, when the hymnal was first published. Lutheran Worship of 1982 has nary a disco tune. Perhaps its most up-to-date music can be found in the liturgical settings, which are far more "contemporary" than the 1960s-era praise songs that are now brought in to replace them. There are 20th century hymns, such as those by the great composer Ralph Vaughn Williams, but there are few, if any, concessions to the year's Top Forty. The fact is, pop music of every kind is excluded, since fashions, by their very nature, come and go. Furthermore, church music is to have a very different use than the music put out by the entertainment industry, namely, to be sung corporately (most pop music works at best only as a solo performance) under the Word and in the presence of God. Music with origins in the folk culture (the old hymns specifically passed down from generation to generation) or the high culture (compositions old or new of artistic greatness) has the capacity to be universal, transcending time and place as Christ's church is supposed to do.

The Christian church, St. Paul tell us, "consists of many diverse members who come together in the unity of the Body of Christ" (I Cor. 12:12-27). "There should be no division in the body" (12:25), we are warned, so that generational differences, like those of "ethnicity, race, gender or social class" (Gal. 3:28), must not be allowed to get in the way of the unity we have in Jesus Christ.

This unity extends through time, "throughout all generations," including those generations of the past. In a typical church service, the hymns that are sung literally do span the generations. A typical worship service thus exemplifies the commerce of ages that is intrinsic to the communion of saints.

A new baby represents a new generation, but the baby is baptized into the one Body of Christ. In church, the old and young, rich and poor, parents and children, Boomers and X-ers, kneel together in prayer, hear the Gospel each of them desperately needs and join together in the unfathomable spiritual intimacy with Christ and with each other, that is Holy Communion.

There are different generations, but they are all equally in need of Christ. The Church is the place where generational differences are to be transcended, not reinforced. Where ephemeral fashions and cultural distinctions are subsumed into an eternal perspective, into a kingdom which "endures from generation to generation" (Daniel 4:34). Only a church which resists being merely of one generation can be relevant to them all.

Speaking of hymns, I think it refers to a specific type of music with its special characteristics. Actually, we can create a song with hymnal character but has nothing to do with God at all. BTW, I saw this in a recent automobile ad in which they use a hymn to exalt their product.


IMO, a hymn is a style of music just as a so called 8 Beat or 16 beat is a style of music used in many contemporary songs.

The psalmist (the Bidle author of Psalm) would feel weirded out by the hymns. Hymns are not the explicit choice of style in the Bible.

But I do agree a certain rythm/melodies/songs can be used in a perverted way. Even though the words are about God, one cannot help but gets hints of that "off" feeling. Certain styles/rythms are just too sensual by nature.

Can we get back to the original question, and leave religion and worship out of it. (Start another topic if you want to continue with that)
As to the instrument, as I posted previously the most flexible instrument (Which can cover virtually any type of music) is the modern electronic organ.

Bill

I agree with you abacus and i did not mean to change the emphasis of the original posting. In reagrds to your suggestion of using a modern organ, just how portable is an organ ? I know the wersi or scala type organs have all the bells and whistles of an arranger but they are very heavy !!!! An arranger keyboard weighs between 20-50lbs . These are very portable and suitable/flexible enough for any type of worship service and the sounds produced are accurate enough to fool even some of the most discerning ears. further more most arranger keyboards are affordable to pretty much any church or small group of worshippers regardless as to the size and type of worship venue.Most organs in the UK at least start from around $12000 up to 25000 ! This is why i contend that the modern day arranger is particularly ideal for worship.

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 08-05-2007).]

It's threads like this one that make me thank God I'm an atheist.

Ian

There are many points of view and we should not get discouraged because of them. I think we need to be a bit more strong to withstand some of that to boraden our horizon. As long as we are civil about it. Just like there is Korg, Yamaha or Roland fans - different point of views. If we close our mind, we might be missing out !

Ian: I think if you see a genuine miracle, you will think very hard not to believe God. I saw things created out of thin air and it is not a magic trick. If you see a familiar man without eye for years(just empty socket) and then receives a brand new eye instantly and see the man on the next service as a different man, I think that would make any Atheist think very hard. I see many things like these and you can too if you are willing to look and invest a bit of time (not a whole lot) and look in the right places will help a lot too. If you close to Hayward, California, I will be glad to show you around. BTW, I witnessed amazing miracles in the circles of Pentecostals, Charismatics, Catholics and other circles as well - these are Christian circles.

Religion is chewing gum for the mind.

Ian

I saw a miracle recently... Fran sold his G1000...

I lead a worship team at the church I attend and use a solo guitar for musical backup. I would like to add 'the band' found in a good quality arranger keyboard. I don�t want to lay out the dollars necessary to purchase one of the high end keyboards mentioned at the beginning of this thread. (Too many features I won�t be using, since I don�t play piano.) Can anyone recommend a great sounding arranger keyboard (that can record user styles) which will �wow� the congregation on Sunday morning without significantly increasing my consumer debt?

I recommend the Yamaha PSR-S900...great sounds, easy to use, and it will do the user style thingy.

Ian

Thanks for your input Ian. I already own a Yamaha DGX300 that I purchased 2 years ago. I personally don�t like the guitar sounds that come out of this keyboard. I tried out a PSR900 at a local Guitar Center and felt that it has the same problem. I�m looking for something that sounds, well� authentic. Do I have to pay the big bucks to get the great sounds, or can I get by with something less expensive? Any more suggestions?




[This message has been edited by polarshift (edited 09-17-2007).]

You might try the Roland E-50...it has excellent sounds and will do the user style as well.

Ian

Authentic...?!!

Sorry, but do you mean the guitar voices you PLAY, or the guitar voices that the arranger plays? And, do you mean acoustic or electric?

Not that it matters a whole lot... IMO, the Yamaha's have possibly the most authentic sounding guitars in any arranger at the moment, particularly the guitars played by the arranger. Those Mega guitars, though close to impossible to play well from the keyboard, work SO well in styles.

I've got some problems with the S900 overall (keybed and drum sound, primarily), but I'll be the first to admit the guitars pretty much rule!

The Tyros 2 works wonderfully for me.
How about a used one?

I just saw one for $1500 on eBay.

Graham

Wow - are you saying that a minister can't play in a bar? Can my choice of profession determine my spirituality? Does my presence in a bar somehow make me unqualified to praise the Lord with song in His house?
I'm sure you did not mean to start awar here, but that one comment really set off something in me.
I'm not a huge fan of bars, and I hate abuse of any substance, but simply playing in a bar does not dismiss anyone's right to be in, or play in a house of worship.

The Lord, Himself made wine for his friends. Drinking is not bad. Drinking too much is bad.

Thank you Dave for this discussion.
I myself prefer the old traditional Hymns.
I go to church to worship and to learn not to be entertained.
I think that sometimes some music can be a distraction to this purpose.

By the way Dave do you have any styles that
would go with the traditional hymns.

Cousin Ken



[This message has been edited by Caragabal (edited 09-17-2007).]

Music absolutely enhances worship. It is a gift from God that we can also use to praise Him.

I can accept that one style has more meaning to some people over another, but to undervalue its importance would be a huge mistake.

I use a large variety of styles in playing hymns, Easy or 8 Beat Ballads (often in 2/2 time), Slow and Medium Worship, 6/8 Ballad and Worship, Guitar Sernade, even English Waltz. I try to keep as close as possible to the harmonies created by the hymn writers, changing chords as often as the original music dictates it.

Graham

To be more specific, what I meant was the guitar sounds that emanate from the "Style"('back up band) section of the keyboard. The voices (right hand sounds)are pretty decent.

The PSR-S900 uses Guitar Mega Voices in the styles...as realistic as you're gonna get.

Of course, we all hear differently.

Good luck with your quest.

Ian

Well at least there are two of us. Although I graduated from The Catholic Univ. in DC (undergraduate) and have been a member of various Unitarian-Universalist churches for most of my adult life, I have never felt the need to worship some mythical figure in order to be a decent human being. In fact, the older I get the more ridiculous the whole concept sounds. But that's for another thread, another board......

How can this question possibly be answered without specifying the type of church, the type of music wanted by the congregation, cathedral or shack, etc., etc., etc.

It's also not going to get addressed without exposing some of our individual religious beliefs, which are bound to offend someone, somewhere. That's why we have a "Mid-East situation" now.

When it comes to anything that involves religion, 10 responders will guarantee you at least 11 opinions. Until the question is more focused, the only responses that have value are those that point out the strengths and weaknesses of the various instruments in a given application.

Hey Ian, we're lucky. We may not get to Heaven but at least we won't have Hell to look forward to, either.

chas (the dammed)



[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 09-18-2007).]

We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children are smart.

Ian

Good one, Ian. You're gaining ground on Diki. In fact,.......

chas

Not a chance, Chas, Diki is miles ahead of me.

I'm just glad to be still in the game.

Ian

Played a funeral on a B-3 will a 122 recently. At the right church, it's the best choice!


R.

Hey Russ, I want you to do the same thing at mine (that is, if we can't get Joey D). As far as the right church, my church won't mind; they'll probably just be happy I'm gone. "I'll be glad when you're dead, you rascal you" might be appropriate .

chas

I still stand by this. The Lord has never set out guidelines for how services are supposed to be (at least in the New Testament). One person's opinion about what a service should be is exactly that... One person's opinion (or one sect, one Pope's, one Archbishop's).

Until the Lord makes a second coming and explains to me whether or not I should use an arranger, or a B3, or the Mighty Wurlitzer, I am prepared to believe He wants us to make our OWN minds up about this one. Just remember, at the time of Christ, there were NO KEYBOARDS AT ALL...

Maybe this means we shouldn't use ANY keyboards and go back to the shofar...

'What would Jesus play?'

A Nord C1. Definitely.

chas

I just LOVE this place !

For me, given an free choice it has to be a proper, valves and rattles (and if possible put the blower in a soundproof room) pipe organ. If only I could play the bass pedals properly.... I suppose a B3 wouldn't be too bad but around my parts I've never met one in a church!

On the other hand, a large number of the more recent hymns are clearly written for piano, and even though I think I'm not bad on the organ for a pianist I'll still switch to a piano if possible.

And if none of this is around my PSR3000 does a perfectly good job. Admittedly I don't bother with styles, I just play it as a piano or organ as necessary.

And if the guitarist (rock / acoustic / bass) or drummer turn up, there is always a place to be found; if they've made the effort to come along then I should make the effort to use their talents.

In the end, just do your best with whatever is available. You will always be appreciated because no matter what sort of mess you make of a tune (and I have) it is still far better than no tune at all.


[This message has been edited by MacAllcock (edited 09-19-2007).]

Around here, most country churches and virtually all churches attended primarily by African Americans have B-3's (sometimes the small ones have M 100's) and tube leslies...usually 122's.

And they sound fantastic.

A good friend, Roy Carter, makes his living traveling to churches in the area maintaining Hammonds. He works 6 days a week. Sometimes, when I look at his repair bills on my old M, B's and C, I think I'm supporting him and his family myself!


R.

Russ, when you say "B3", I'm assuming that you're using the term generically, as most churches opted for the C3 (same organ, different cabinet). I had one and let me tell you, that baby was even heavier than a "B". Throw in two 122's, a bench, and a pedalboard, and you could get a hernia just looking at it. Most of us cut down the full back so our (fake) pedal work could be seen .

chas

chas

At Jesus times, or maybe even way before that, God's people used many different instruments.

The Bible has a lot of mentions of various musical instruments such as tambourine (or something like it), harplike instruments, and probably many other different instruments that I missed. You will find it a lot of them in David's Psalms in the old testament. And David was called by God as a man after His own heart. David was a special man to God and many of his worship songs are forever enshrined in the Bible. David was probably in today's times would have played a lot of the contemporary worship styles since he uses so many music instruments.

Now I am not kidding on this: when we worship, we can actually witnessed angels around us. All of us at our small groups were baffled by this recent phenomena. We could capture it on photos using many different cameras and at different locations where we have our worship. And I was using my PSR3000 believe it or not. I used many upbeat styles and ballads. So, the angels and the Man upstairs seem to enjoy our worship very much. And lo and behold, we heard this phenomena happening at other churches as reported on Charisma, a popular Christian magazine.

Chas, actually, I know the difference well, and most of the ones in copuntry churches here are B's, not C's. I have both.


Don't know why. I'm sure it's a regional thing, since the C was the church version for most people.


R.

Russ, any of those churches leave their doors unlocked?

chas

I see that I 'mispoke' regarding the Yamaha PSR S900. I was confusing it with the older PSR models. After playing it at a Guitar Center store yesterday I learned that the PSR S900 is a brand new offering from Yamaha that has an upgraded sound generator, employing mega-voice technology. The sounds coming from the 'back up band' section of this keyboard are very realistic. So you guys are right, this would be an excellence choice. But it's still a little more than I had planned to spend.

I see that the PSR S700 is more in my price range. Unfortunately, I couldn't compare features because the Guitar Center stores don't carry the 'little brothers' in this series.

I also checked out a Korg PA50 which also produces an excellent sound, even more to my liking (a bit more depth to my ears), but I liked the variety of styles that Yamaha has loaded into the PSR S900 better. It actually has four "worship styles" to choose from in the rhythm and blues style section. What more could you ask? (Well, how about a separate praise and worship style section!)

Anyway, thanks for your most helpful input Ian and Diki!



[This message has been edited by polarshift (edited 09-20-2007).]

The S700 has mega voice styles, and also has the organ drawbars as in the S900.

Polyphony is less at 96(as opposed 128 on the S900), there are less styles(205) and the screen is not color.

If you want 128 poly, you could also look for a second hand PSR-3000, which also has worship styles, organ drawbars and the mega voices. It also has a color screen.

Hope this helps.

Ian

Chas, i think I have figured out why there are a lot of B's, instead of C's in this area. For generations, there was one family that basically produced all the superior jazz and gospel keyboard musicians. It is the Maphson family, and every one of the members can outplay the best in the area. Superior jazz players go to audition and get the back-up position. Most churches also have a Rhodes or grand and a full complement of bass, horns, choir, guitar, etc. The matriarch is an 80 year old 80 lb lady who really "cooks" on a B...can outplay me with one hand and one boney little leg! Every person is the caliber of a Jimmy Smith. I think that one family made the choice to use B's instead of C's.

I think it's a topical issue, sort of like the church in St. Louis, where robert Randolph (man, he can cook and is a decent person) learned pedal steel from a number of older, extremely competent lap and pedal steel players. Steel is the instrument of choice in that church, but not any others that I know of.

I have a "cherry" C which was purchased by a Methodist church where a member donated a Rogers. The C and accompanyting tone cabinet and Leslie has less than 6 months use, and has been moved only once. It doesn't have a mark on it.

In country churches in Kentucky, old Hammonds rule!


R.

Wasn't the 'B' a little less expensive than the 'C'?

That might have factored into it a bit, plus the 'B' gives the organist a bit better sight-line to make eye contact with other musicians and the congregation, whereas the 'C' was more for the traditional 'turn your back to the congregation' church organist, I think...

Russ, I love these little insights into such an important part of our American culture. I'm also glad that there are people like you around to tell these stories, and in so doing, to document at least a part of our cultural heritage. It's the collage of stories like the one above that paint the "big" picture. I think people like Winton Marsalis (and others who care about the detailed and intimate history of "the music") would love you. Sure wish that your knowledge of Kentuckys musical past could be more formally documented (hint, hint).

Good wishes,

chas

Hey, Chas...one interesting thing about Central Kentucky is that, prior to the factories re-locating to here (IBM, Square D and others) in the very early 60's, Lexington was a jazz mecca, with top jazz venues (Joyland Casino) and many small jazz clubs (The Top of the Stairs and others).

There was almost no country music. In fact, when I moved from here in 1962, we had only one small 1000 watt country station in a nearby town. That's because the economy was primarily horse farms, The University of Kentucky (faculty, staff), national distillers and several prestigious private education intstitutions (Transylvania, Center College, etc.).

When I got to Victorville, California, Apple Valley was full of country music venues and performers (Roy Rogers lived in Apple Valley).

My first job was at a club where country music was performed and the "Kentucky Boy" didn't know any of the music!

There is an old-time tenor player, Byron Romanowitz, here in Lexington, who recently wrote a definitive history of jazz in Lexington. It's in the form of a coffee table book, with photos of not only locals but many national acts like Kenton, Duke,Anita O'Day and, later, acts like Jimmy Smith, Ike Cole (Nat's brother-a fabulous B-3 player), and many others. Byron is a very successful retired architect and still one of the best jazz players in the area.

No country music in Lexington, Kentucky during the 30's through early 60's? That's really the way it was!


Russ




[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 09-20-2007).]