Tom, a C9 & C79 chord are basically the same thing, both are dominant family 7th chords but with a 9th added, so indeed all your KN6000's chord recognitions are the SAME as I wrote. ;

To summarize the IMPORTANCE of rootless chord recognition in arranger keyboard mode 'LH split mode' or 'full keyboard mode' piano playing:

When playing in 'live' jazz combo trio rhythm section situation, the piano player typically is expected to play comping chords, with the bass player supplying the bass lines based on the root chords of the tune, and drummer supplying the rhymthmic groove. It's important, particularly in this style of music, that the piano player not play the root tones (foundation notes) of the chords as this is the function of the bass player.

Emulating this trio setup on an arranger keyboard (with us (the arranger player) functioning as the rhythm section keyboard player, is no different. First of all, for jazz combo styles in which a piano auto accomp part is included, I ALWAYS delete the accomp instsrument part because I want to supply all piano accomp in my LIVE playing, it ALWAYS sounds better and more professinal. I've found most auto accomp piano parts to sound too rigid & computer like. Ok, back to my explaination. Once the auto accomp piano part(s) are muted, I can procede to supply left hand (assigned to a Piano Voice) comping, which include the rootless voicings given above. Even though I'm not playing the chord's 'root' tones, the arranger recognizes them as if I were, and has the auto-accompaniment BASS part (acoustic bass) supply and play the root tones (and other notes of chords) of the chords instead. This is how it is and should be to most accurately reproduce the sound of a true jazz style combo. This was the type of combo sound made popular by the Bill Evans Trio in the 60's and is carried on with the like of Diana Krall, Peter Cincotti, Jamie Cullum and other contemporary jazz kb artists. I hope my explaination was clear here. Changing the above chord recognition (and in addition to the above specific instances, in ALL 12 keys as well) expands the playing possibilities for the arranger keyboard player without sacrificing anything as the existing chords recognition (as Roland currently assigns them) is totally useless and never played by anyone as far as I can tell. Can even ONE person here report back and tell me that they actually play any of the above chords voicings to trigger the chords (EXCEPT for the ones that already match mine) Roland currently assigns them? I bet not.


Don't worry. ; Actually, musical education is'nt required. You can easily hear the DIFFERENCE in the sound of the chords being played. Many terrific musicians have never had a formal music lesson in their life, yet are able distingish the difference in the chord type voicings being played. Ear training is the key.

Many thanks for listening everyone, especially if you're someone from Roland Corp.

Scott


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http://scottyee.com

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 04-30-2005).]

For chord recognition, I agree with Scott and not agree too:
**** E1 - Bb1 - D2: C9 ****
-agree --> good simplification for arranger
-not really agree --> in a band, when the bass plays solo on this chord which is not on the root, the other instruments must cover the rest of notes to complete the whole voicing to avoid to miss the fondamental, sometime you need to double the fondamental for reminding that you are playing C voicing.
IMHO, the rootless on a arranger is just a simplification for technique. I will play simply this : C1-E1-Bb1-D2 on arranger. Sometime G1 instead of E1, on piano. On Home Organ, I will play the root C on bass and E1-(G)-Bb1-D2 on left hand or this G-Bb-D-F.
On an arranger, the objective is that the machine play really C9, and not else.

bbc: I forgot to mention that, those missing chord tones not included in the left hand, are played by my RIGHT hand, to form a full sounding 'open voicing type' 2-hand comping chord. Some examples:

Upper Structure Chords:
1 (LH: E1-Bb1-D2) (RH: D3-G3-C4): C9
2 (LH: E1-Bb1-D2) (RH: D3-F#3-A3): C13#11
3 (LH: E1-Bb1-D2) (RH: A2-C#3-E3): C13b9
4 (LH: E1-Bb1-D2) (RH: Ab2-C3-Eb3): C7#9b13
5 (LH: E1-Bb1-D2) (RH: Eb2-G2-Bb2): C7#9

Yes, the C in examples #1 & #4 are doubling the root tone reserved for the bass player, but because it sits several octaves above in the register, it's not actually doubling the exact same note the bass player is playing.

The above 4 examples are all chord alterations (altered tensions) of a C9 chord and add a different flavor to it. I encourage everyone to 'take the time out' to play each of the above 4 chord voicings and listen (and appreciate) the unique sound each one produces. EVEN though they are all based on & recognized by the arranger as a "C9 chord", all played with the SAME LH 3 notes: E1-Bb1-D2, they each have a slightly different flavor, much the same as adding & mixing spices in a food recipe.

Ok. Please tell me if what I just explained makes sense to you. I'd really love to get back feedback from you guys after you've played & compared each of the above chord voicings. The cool thing is that all these chords are are possible to be utilized when playing in auto-accompaniment mode, but ONLY if your arranger supports ROOTLESS chord recognition. Do you all understand now WHY I'm so gung-ho about arranger keyboards including Rootless chord recognition?!

Guys & gals: This concludes my FREE intro lesson in Playing 'jazz piano' on the arranger keyboard. - Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 04-30-2005).]

Thanks a lot for your explanation Scott!

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Tom NL

Scott,
Don't confuse between chord recognition for arranger and Jazz Harmonization. In your reasoning, the behaviour on Home organ is not like this, if the bass recognition mechanism is "on".
I played several instruments for over 30 years. I will not buy other arranger only for the integration of feature for Jazz Chord recognition because you can do it in other way. IMO, it's just a plus and not more compare to the quality of Keyboard, sounds, arrrangement, Voice Processor... The simplified Jazz chord recognition is really in background problem, simply because we can play in other way(s...s....s).
Perhaps, it makes more time to change the way you will play on new keyboard. I think that this will take less than 1 day work.
I agree that on Piano, you need to do this because it sounds better, but must not do it systematically too (E-Bb-D). In some case, I will play F-Bb-D, so...
For someone who want to learn more about Jazz Harmonization, there is many books on this. One of the reference is from "Marc Levine".

We DO NOT HAVE TO play the same way on a arranger keyboard, home organ and Piano.
Theory is theory. But the best of the best is to "Play only with ears".

hmmm. Playing only with our ears hitting the keys would certainly be a challenge & more likely an impossibility.

Music theory explains the scientific (mathmetical) principles behind music and can help become better musicians. Yes, I agree that the bottom line in making music is what is played, heard and appreciated listening thru our ears, but understanding the theory behind the music can only help us in that process.

This emphasizes my point regarding adding those' left hand' voicing I outlined above. Only with these can you attain this unique 'sound' HEARD playing by ear (thru our ears ) when playing in arranger auto accomp mode. The 'on bass' feature is certainly useful as well, but is an entirely different animal, and does not provide the same results heard.

Speaking of Mark Levine, he was actually my piano teacher, and I had the privledge to study with him privately a number of years ago. It was him that taught me the rootless jazz chord voicings outlined above. Ok, the chord voicing above are not EXACTLY the same as the II-V-I A/B voicing outlined in his book, but they are still, based on them, abeit (less one note 3 note vs 4 note chords) that Technics, Yamaha, and Ketron implemented to accomodate the limitations of the arranger chord recognition table. They still though, preserve that open chord voicing sound that is so the signature of piano jazz and an important supplement to include in an arranger keyboard chord recognition table. For those interested in checking out Mark's Jazz Piano book: http://www.shermusic.com/jazzpno.htm . Be sure to checkout the chapter covering A/B chord voicings. - Scott