An owner of a local restaurant called me today telling me that he wanted to hire me to play piano in his restaurant, but wants me to only perform non-copyrighted music because he claimed that the authorities have recently informed him that he must pay ASCAP & BMI $200/month for live music performed of all 'copyrighted' songs.

From an entertainer's standpoint, I've never had a club owner bring this up to me this way before. I always thought that the commerical establishments I perform at (from clubs to nursing homes) pay a preset annual(?) royalty fee to cover copyrighted music performed by featured entertainers. Is this a correct assumption?

I realize that legally, all public performance of copyrighted music is subject to royalty payment, but suspect, because this law is not always strictly enforced, that some establishments simply ignore paying it altogether, unless they get caught.

What exactly is the law? Has anyone else ever had a club owner or establishment bring this up to you like this before?

Scott

Scott....they are even down here in Cozumel Mexico..what they do is count the number of seats in the restaurant-bar then multiply that by a number of minimum slaries which is calculated by the # of seating you have... example...you have 50 seats and the chart or list states that you have to pay 50 minimum
salaries for 50 seats...the minimum salary might be $7.00 x50 seats= $350.00 you would have to pay $350.00 per month to the ASCAP
rep...these numbers are for example only, the true figures will vary with each place and it don't matter if you are using a radio
instead of live musicans..I don't know what it is or how it's figured in the Good Ole US
of A but I'll bet it's not to far off...and yes, we have to pay...

I ran into a place here that was fined a bundle because they weren't paying the royalties, so they were not hiring anymore live entertainment.

I never ran into this before, I was amazed.

Turns out the restaurant blew the whistle on themselves. They contacted ASCAP and asked if they needed to pay for live entertainment. Apparently ACAP checked them out and fined them several thousand bucks! They are now out of business.

Probably the other "weird" thing that I remember was something about if a club hired a non-union band they would get black-listed for like a year where no band could perform there. The band I was with at the time was the first band to go back in after they were off the defaulters list.

This seems really strange to me, but it really seems like that's the way it was. Back in about 1972.

Scott

There's only two types of music not subject to royalty fees - original music and classical music, the latter of which is public domain.

That $200/month figure is probably a breakdown of a $2400/year annual fee. I play lots of places and they all pay their ASCAP/BMI/SESAC performance fees for live music. One club told me they pay about $1500/year in fees. The agency rep then told then they had to pay additional fees for having the TV on in the lounge to cover music coming from that - the club refused on the grounds that since they have live music the TV is usually muted... the rep bought that answer.

That thing about non-union bands and being blackballed only happens in areas where the unions have some muscle, like in the Northeast. Here in the Southeast we live in "right to work" states where the union has no authority so noone cares about the union, musician or employer.

Scott,
No disrespect, but why did he want you to play? Has he heard you do original material? From all I know about you, you are a self proclaimed standards kind of guy.
(like me)
What made him think you did original stuff?

I worked in a hotel where the ASCAP representatives stayed when they were in town.

They were rough! What they did is look at the newspaper and any entertainment guides or free newspapers. Then, they checked out all the places that advertised entertainment.

Club owners have some negotiating lattitude. It starts with the number of seats, but also is set by the number of musicians and the number of nights the place has music. Club owner can negotiate the fee down by claiming
that volume is lighter on some nights than others.

Club owners avoid fees on recorded music by
buying a service like Muzak which pays a national fee and passes off that cost in th monthly fee they charge the establishment.

About 10 years ago, ASCAP went after establishments that use recorded music on their hold buttons (doctors offices, etc.).

7 years ago, ASCAP and BMI intended to shut down the consumer electronics show unless exhibitors paid a liscensing fee for the playing of recorded music at trade shows.

These organizations have caused several nice venues to stop music here in Lexington.

My big wonder is how they set compensation for the writers and performers of liscensed music. How do they track music use and figure out how much to pay?

Russ

This is getting stupid.
If this stupidity hits here, I'm gonna quit buying records from these vultures. They should be glad their music is being kept alive at all these days, full of quick hit wonders as the music biz has become.
Just ask Ashley.........

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Roy-Andrè

I agree, and as Capt Russ stated, how do they figure out who gets what and how much...AFTER THE REPS AND THE GUYS WHO THOUGHT UP THIS SCAM TAKE THIERS OFF THE TOP
I wonder?????

I know restaurants and clubs here in li'l Rhody pay a fee, although I do not know what it is ...
Also, the musician's union isn't as strong as it once was in the northeast either ... no one has ever asked me if I was in the union or not ... I realize that in the larger cities such as NYC, Boston, Hartford, and even Providence, and I would think Philadelphia as well, the union can still apply some muscle for major venues such as playhouses, arenas, etc. to protect the interests of their members. When I first started in this business, you belonged to the union or you didn't work. I would think that for the most part the union members are full time guys playing shows, etc.
t.

Okay...so up here in the frozen north, we have SOCAN (Society OF Composers And Musicians). These idiots have got the government on their side, which ,makes it even worse.
Basically this bunch (SOCAN) was set up by a bunch of has beens and one hit wonders. They demand that monies be paid to them and those $$ are supposedly distributed amongst SOCAN members. Most (about 90%) of SOCAN members are people who have written some tunes, usually about rocks and trees, and clouds and that shrub nonsense, or stuff that nobody really wants to hear. Let's face it, when you go to a bar or pub/lounge to hear entertainment, you want to hear the music that excites you over the airwaves, not some crap written & performed by some 70's drop-out named Starchild, that you'd never listen to in the first place.
Anyhoo...the fees: establishments are requested to pay (to SOCAN) $29.00 if there's no dancing, $58.00 if there's dancing...go figure that one out.
So what a lot of places are doing, and it's a great idea, is to submit a bill to SOCAN to match the fees paid. This bill covers administrative fees (the issuing of the cheque).
Also SOCAN demands payment for music played in places of business like Dentist's offices, malls, stores, etc.
I contacted these people to ask, "if I do a night of playing, ie.Beatles, Elvis, 50's stuff etc." and if the estblishment has to pay this fee to SOCAN, are those monies distributed to the likes of McCartney, Elvis' estate, or Chuck Berry, etc? to which they said NO, the monies are distributed to SOCAN members, obviously after a skim off the top undoubtedly.
These people (SOCAN) are nothing but crooks, and they've got the government (henceforth the Law) on their side.
That's how it is in Canada, and because of our mousey politicians, that's how it's gonna be for some time.
So...in the meantime, keep billing it right back to them.
Just my thots....and concerns.

------------------
...L

Though I don't have any first-hand knowledge of the fees, I was led to believe that in the People's Replublic of Maryland they're based upon a percentage of the establishment's liquor sales. Additionally, there seems to be several exemptions to the fee, American Legions, VFWs, and other non-profit organizations.

Gary

OK Uncle Dave, I don't mean to be dis-respectful either, but THOSE of us with a foundation of traditional piano training usually play MORE THAN only the standards. I can play classical music too . . .
R - E - M - E - M - B - E - R ?

No

Though I certainly do improvise , he clearly knows that I don't perform original material.

The fact is that I had actually worked at this restaurant some time ago awhile back, of which included not only playing 'pop standards', but some dinner hour background classical music (of which happens to be royalty-free) as well.

One of the highlights of this restaurant is that it has a nice acoustic Grand Piano, ALMOST as pleasurable to play as my own 7 foot Steinway B Grand at home. Sorry, but I just couldn't resist getting in that dig. - Scott

I'm pretty sure ASCAP can't fine anyone. What they have to do if an establishmnt refuses to pay is sue for copyright infringement.

Also, royalties are charged for music under liscense...that means that technically, fees are not imposed for music in the public domain, where copyrights have expired. The reason classical music is exempt is because it is in the public domain and the copyright has expired...really nothing to do with the type of music.

As far as union relationships, several years
ago, I was asked to play at a National Hardware show in Chicago at McCormack Convention center, in the Lakeshore suite, which was rented by a large internatinal firm. Knowing that there was a strong trade union mentality, I renewed my local card and thought I had everything covered. Within 10 minutes od starting, I was stopped by a union rep which said that their contract with the hotel required the only musicians from their local or out of area locals with a pre-approved (that means cut of the money) agreement could work. And this was a private affair.

What a pain in ***!

Russ

Same kind of thing here in Central NY BMI scared a lot of places out of business or at least out of entertainment.
Up here I haven't heard of the union in 30 years, I know it was big once and maybe symphony is union and a couple big auditorium type venues. But they don't do much for or bother the working musicians.
Don't tell em my name

Thats stupid, im pretty big into the whole band scene and im part of a local venue, bands come and play covers all the time, and we have never had this brought up.

That doesnt seem right at all, who gets the royalty money that you pay a monthly bill for, they dont know what your playing.

Phil

[This message has been edited by Pennywizz6 (edited 01-06-2005).]

ASCAP nd BMI rule every place I ever worked. They have stickers on the front door, just like a Zaggat rating and the club pays a fee based on the number of seats and type of music played.
There is no way around it ... if you use other peoples music to enhance your business ... you need to pay.

Some time ago, there was talk about requiring DJs and bands to pay the fees, but it was squashed pretty quickly. It's the venue's responsibility.

Scott .... I didn't know you had a Steinway?

Yes that’s just another obstacle for live performance and venues that try to encourage live performances.

Dead wrong. This is the way that generations of musicians, composers, artists and their representatives worked out to be paid for the use of their intellectual property. It's the way it is because a lot of musicians worked hard politically and made it possible to be paid for musical work in a variety of ways. Too easy and too often music is taken for granted, even by other musos. I find it incredible that some musicians can dismiss this fact so easily... we are the beneficiaries of this process as songwriters and recording artists. I am a member of BMI as well as a live performer - the people who work for me to collect music royalties aren't "stupid" or "vultures". It's hypocritical to make such judgmental statements without trying to understand what it's really all about.

This argument has been going on for a very long time. Even the Beatles were once sued for performing there own music because a venue they played failed to pay the performance fees. (They were named along with the owner.)

Most of us think of songwriters and musicians as the same people but most of the music performed is written by a diffetent songwriter than the musician(s) that performs it. The only real way for these songwriters to make money is from these royalties.

It's well known that Paul McCartney makes most of his income from his publishing company. He owns the rights to thousands of songs and plays (but not the Beatles songs).

The problem I have is not that they collect the fees but that it really can be difficuly for an individule to figure out all the different royalties that need to be paid.

I wanted to open a free site for all of us put the non-original songs we record on our keyboards that would be legal. First I needed to determine which organization the performance rights were goverened by and purchase a 6 month general license (about $1200), then I had to contact the music publisher to find out their fee for recording the music.

It was just too much for a free site. If I could have found a license that I just paid so much per song downloaded. I might have considered funding it.

Best Wishes,


------------------
Heather- Leesburg, FL PR54

I was not trying to downgrade the works of composers and songwriters. I think that songwriters and composers should be compensated for their works. However, what I was commenting on was the system that allows composers and songwriters to be compensated (if at all) for the live performance of their works. I was just trying to point out the effect such a system has on the performing arts and the establishments that try to encourage performers. I just think that who what and how they charge is too extreme.

I am not at all saying that the system should be abolished. Quite the opposite since the system I am critiquing is the very one I get compensated from for my compositions and songwriting.

I just think that it should better favor live performances or more specifically the establishments that try to encourage live performances.

Sometimes, dialog on topics like this is good so that a greater understanding of the effect on all concerned can be understood and hopefully make the system better. That is all I am trying to do.

Dave and Pro are right...writers and musicians need to be compensated and
ASCAP and BMI are the liscensing agents that make that happen.

I have no problem at all with the process. My concerns are:

1. The tactics (intimidation and threats, mainly)that at least ASCAP reps use.

2. The concern about how collected funds are distributed...how do recipients know if they are being compensated fairly?

I can't imagine that club and restautant owners don't know about ASCAP and BMI. I've only known one that didn't, and he was a novice. Some just wait until they "get the visit".

In earlier posts I wasn't complaining about the process, just the methods I've seen over the years.

Now, the Union...that's an entirely different matter!


Russ

I agree with Russ, and I included my reply to the use of the term "vultures" in my reply to genesys although he didn't use that phrase himself.

Remember that reps from ASCAP and BMI have to deal with restaurant and nightclub owners - not exactly the lilies of the business world. And to the establishment, they see performance royalty fees as a tax to be avoided. In fact, it's just another cost of doing business and the restaurant owners I know accept this and pay it and there is no intimidation used or needed whatsoever. I suspect that when strong-arm tactics come into play it's because and probably in proportion to the resistance to paying... and I believe reps are paid in commissions so it's their livelihood too. It's not a perfect solution and not always a pretty one even, but it's the one we're given until someone comes up with something better.

Yep, I'm not a union fan either. I would be if they worked as hard in states where they are not mandated as they do in states where they are. In "right to work" states here in the South, the union is a joke.

One last thing - about the "songwriter in the mansion" image... I collect royalties from my music, particularly some of my commercial music beds. And I've been fortunate that some of my music has been recorded by other artists. I'm not rich nor do I have a mansion, but performance royalties matter to me. I can only hope that all of you have an opportunity to make some money from royalties for yourselves.

I played in amateur brass bands here in the UK for many years. The bands are run along the lines of non profit making clubs, but they still have to pay fees to the Performing Rights Society based on copyrighted music played throught the year.

Regards

Keith

I think the "mom and pop" bars and small bsuinesses should be exempt especially if their main business is not making money from the music.
I have heard of a auto body shop where one of the employees played his own radio at his bay and BMI tried to collect royalties. Beauty shops also are hassled for playing a radio or TV.
So if I'm in my backyard playing my radio and a neighbor can hear it should I be charged royalties?
I understand the writers side but what about the teenage garage band that plays at a local teen center do you want to shut them down because they didn't get the 1/2 penny royalty.
Most of us have played in those teenage bands and didn't worry about royalties.
How about the local bar band that covers your song and someone likes it so they go buy your album. The band should get a commission for selling the album.

It's a very involved issue.

[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 01-14-2006).]

The question I have (and this thread and some of it's posts have gotten so long I don't know if the answer has been given) is - who gets the money?!?!? If it goes to the composer how do they know to whom to pay what?
thnx,
t.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
[b]ASCAP nd BMI rule every place I ever worked. They have stickers on the front door, just like a Zaggat rating and the club pays a fee based on the number of seats and type of music played.
There is no way around it ... if you use other peoples music to enhance your business ... you need to pay.

The same here in Brasil.
Our local copyright office is named ECAD.

Chico



[This message has been edited by ChicoBrasil (edited 01-07-2005).]

You know who gets the money, the lawyers, the collectors, the book keepers, all the office people and officers of the corp of ascap and bmi. And they trickle down a half a penny to the artist just to keep it legit

I'm sure I'll be corrected but my limited,unofficial understanding is only the melody and words make up the copyright. So the key wouldn't matter. The arrangement and chord progression cannot be copywritten.
yea yea yea I know I don't know what I'm talking about and how dare me.......etc. etc.

"If a song is transposed in to a different key.
If you use the same melody and people could recognized the original song, then that would probably carry you over to copyright infringement. That is if you rerecord or publicly perform the song with out the copyright holder’s permission or compensating the copyright holder.


[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 01-07-2005).]

. but how do they decide what artist gets how much?!?!?
t.

they have a rating system, that rates the songs by popularity, very complicated, you can guess about the top 100 hits and album sales but what about a song like happy birthday, which I think is still under copyright or it ended in recent years.
Not a big seller not played on the radio alot but alot of live performance.
If you record a song that has a copyright you have to pay x amount per song times the number of copies you are printing, not just whats sold.

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 01-07-2005).]

I deleted my long post. I think people who cry about their royalties, (I don't care if it's $1.00, $5.00 or $1000.00 a month) should have to go work on a real job like construction until lunch hour one day and then go home and thank God for their $5.00 a month royalty payment they receive.

Royalties forever and forever are absurd, absurd and at the very least extremely absurd, especially the millions that are paid for writing "Roses are Red my love, violets are blue."

Hell I said that in 1947 in kindergarten. Well why didn't you write that Boo? Because I'm not that simple minded, stupid!

Stark Whitman recorded and Henry Schroeder wrote a song that's still played every time graduadion rolls around in New Orleans called "Graduation Day" Stark died some time back and Henry still plays music around New Orleans and neither have ever received a cent.

Their agent screwed them. Now that I don't agree with at all. They were two pretty congenial fellows. If it were me that somebody screwed that bad, the agent at the least would be crippled today.

That reminds of a quote by Little Richard when talking about the agents that screwed him out of his royalties for his famous tunes he said " I don't get nothing, no hello, no goodbye, not even a card on my birthday."

All this sounds a little heavy and totally discouraging for you guys in the US. Is this only a problem (challenge) in the club scene, or does it get into the nursing home, church and concert scene also? What about if you do arrangements comprising of themes to three or four songs as a medley. Where is the boundary between copywrite and original?

Jon.

I have read all your comments with interest.
yet I am still confused.
I am a non professional bass baritone singer that loves to sing and perform but I do not have
the resources financially or timewise to ensure
the owners of copyright material are duly compensated.
How can I tell if music is out of copyright?
Our Australian Goverment tried to pass legislation putting a $1 tax on all CD's,tapes
etc.It was rejected because no one could agree how the funds were to destributed.
It would of possibly cut out the present organisations.

In the 70's I worked for radio stations. Two weeks out of every year we had to log every single song we played, listing song title, artist, composer and, if it was on the label, the licensing agency: BMI, ASCAP or SESAC. We were told every radio station in the country had to do this and the results would be tabulated to figure a "guestimate" of who gets paid what.

Yeah, right.

Eddie

The case I remember most is George Harrison getting sued for "my sweet lord" the first three notes.."my sweet lord" are the same as.. "he's so fine". Otherwise I don't think the songs have anything in common, except those three notes repeated.
the writers or copyright holders of "he's so fine" sued and won a judgement agains Harrison.
I'm no lawyer but I'm gonna guess that there are all kinds of protections built into the law that protects the copyright holder against any trick, or variation you can think of.
to read more about it http://abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/mysweet.htm

This article also explains a little about how they decide how much to pay the writer and the different types of fees such as performance, mechanical, etc.

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 01-08-2005).]

Copyrights are not a problem but they are something that has to be delt with by anyone who presents music in the public, including clubs, restaraunts, concert venues, schools, churches and more. Even public schools, which make no money from their performances, must pay performance fees to present music recitals and most music directors know how to do this. I'm not aware of any exclusions unless the music presented is classical.

The boundary is simple - if you write a song then you own the copyright to that work immediately upon writing it. To make it formal and provable in court, you file for a copyright, otherwise known as intellectual property rights. This is a legal deed much like the title to a car... it can be bought, sold and traded as real property.

FYI: it's "copyright" as in the rights to the copy, not "copywrite" - a song covered by copyright is "copyrighted", not "copywritten".

The way that copyright laws are defined an artist may secure their rights to their own original work. Others must pay if they "derive benefit from" that work. Note that is not the same as making money - in other words even if you use another person's work and make no money at all, such as when you make a free demo tape of music you didn't write yourself and don't make a cent from it, you are responsible for paying the royalties. If you make a medley of three or four songs then you are responsible for royalties to all of the individual authors and/or their publishers and/or their representative organizations. For that matter, even if you use a few seconds of a song, you are liable fo royalty fees... this is having an impact on people who sample.

Copyrights cover the work for 75 years after the death of the author, and even then the family of the deceased may file for an extension (and often do). Practically every popular song written in the 20th century is covered by copyright currently. Once the copyright expires then the song is considered public domain, such as all classical music.

One interesting side note: arrangements are not copyrightable in the US, which is a problem for professional music arrangers (not the electronic ones we use). So I understand that some musical arrangers here in the US actually file for their arrangement copyrights in France where they are allowed to do so. The US is then bound by it's own international agreements to recognize that copyright.

Disclaimer: I am fairly knowledgeable about copyrights but I am not a legal expert.


[This message has been edited by The Pro (edited 01-08-2005).]

Thanks to all for your interesting and informative feedback on this topic. Though it clears up a lot of confusion about royalties, it also opens the doors to other questions:

1) Do most established Nursing Homes and Retirement & Community Center type venues routinely pay annual fees to ASCAP/BMI to cover their scheduled live music entertainment?

2) How about street musicians who play 'for tips' in the public square? Do they ever get cited by the authorities for not paying copyright fees ? I assume that most large organized events (fairs, conventions, etc) routinely include whatever ASCAP/BMI royalty fees are required to pay in their operating budget.

3) How about PRIVATE (dance party) clubs & Weddings, where the entertainer/band leader himself is the host, providing a mix of both DJ & live music, and perhaps even charging a door 'cover charge'. Is the entertainer-host himself RESPONSIBLE for paying royalty fees to ASCAP/BMI in this situation?

Scott

Scott I think that is why they go after the venue for the fees. If the banquet hall pays a fee then everyone that plays there is covered.
I don't know about nursing homes although I could imagine the newspaper story about the ascap rep that closed down the nursing homes' rec hall because it didn't pay.
How do you collect from a transient street performer? Which I can only imagine is why they decided to go after the venues instead of the performer at the local level.
I suppose if they could track down the performer at the backyard wedding he is ultimately responsable to pay a fee.

Here's an article from a DJ Publication discussing this issue. No real "new" info, but thought it might contribute...
http://www.mobilebeat.com/archives.asp?art=105

Bill in Dayton