Hi Russ,

Please clarify this story a bit. Did this lady work for the store? If not, I have a real hard time justifying the action taken to relieve the salesman and store manager from their jobs. They weren’t the ones who stuck it to the gentleman, it was the lady who drove a sick man to a piano store, got him to purchase an instrument, and then left town with it.

What I do see that is not so good is the fact that the store wanted to keep the full down payment while wiping the remainder clean with the return of the piano. But, how long was this instrument out of the store? Had new models been introduced since the sale? What would be a fair price for the model as a used instrument and does that justify the down payment amount?

Not trying to start anything, I just really want to understand.

Thanks,

Dave

ADDED AFTER THE FACT:
Wait, are you saying that the store employees were in on this from the start? If that's the case then yeah they should be sent packing along with the lady.


[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 03-28-2006).]

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 03-28-2006).]

Hi Don,

I started classical piano lessons at age 5, and then at 13 I moved to jazz improve. I went to college as a piano major. I can play pretty well. Lately I have been doing some blues gigs using my Genesys Pro mainly for acoustic and Rhodes piano sounds. I do sprinkle in the occasional brass, sax, clavinet, etc. but mostly piano. The reason I have been using the Genesys is because many of the places this band plays has very little room to set up in. I have taken my Promega 3 (88 note weighted) with me from time to time, but the extra length of the unit sometimes can be a problem. Sure I love having all 88 keys to work with, and weighted hammer action at that, however I think (actually I will go as far as saying I know) that more experienced players can make due with 61 keys. Yes it's nice to have all 88, or even 76, but a decent keyboard player can make 61 keys work just fine.

A while back the singer wanted to do Crazy. No one in the band had ever played it before (go figure) and I pretty much hate that song but unfortunately I knew it, so... The song went well and everybody loved it. Did anyone in the audience say, what's up with the piano part? Where were the rest of the notes? No. Granted, I would have liked to have had an extra lower octave when it came time for me to do a solo, although I did grab the octave down button once toward the end just for dramatics.

Less face it, an arranger instrument covers the bass part. And normally some of the accompaniment tracks are in the lower and upper registers, so the fact is having 76 or even worse 88 keys available to those who can't play very well only serves to muddy up the total sound because of their lack of experience in knowing what NOT to play.

"There, does that make you feel better?"

lol,

Dave

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 03-28-2006).]

A couple more comments - the sellers who think that selling pianos and electronic keyboards is similar are missing the boat. Pianos, or most other acoustic instruments, are durable goods - with periodic maintenance, they will sound as well or better 30 years from now as they sound today. They can be repaired by any knowledgeable person with the minimum of tools. The same can not be said about electronic keyboards - these have built-in obsolescence, and after 10 years you probably won't find the parts needed to fix even a simple malfunction with an electronic component. Even if parts were available, the software issues can not be fixed unless the fixer has access to and is familiar with the code inside the instrument. In other words, after a few years your electronic instrument becomes worthless. I can justify spending copious amounts of money on something that will last a lifetime, but not on something that will need to be replaced in a few years, because it only has that many years of life built into it.

Of course, the electronic keyboards cost money to produce, and do more things than a real piano. But other than for a few people who gig and make a living with the arranger kbs, high-end electronic instruments are much harder to justify buying.

This is especially true since most keyboards today fall short of the users' wishes and needs. Just look at today's announcement by Roland - The e80 is a 49 lb behemoth, e50/60 look better, but no vocal harmonizer - why? Roland is not the only one - in fact their E80/G70 are in direct competition with Korg. Same features, same shortcomings.

In fact, with the harmonizer, the E50/60 could be in direct competition with PSR 3000, which appeals to the the pros and amateurs alike. If they had only learned to listen...

But back to the issue of pricing - in my experience, many small stores in my area had pricing that was downright ridiculous. I mentioned how they quoted me a price of $7000 for the Technics KN5000, whose dealer invoice was less than $2000 - that is a far cry from the 3% or 10% margin. Knowing that other people paid around $3000 for it (still a pretty decent profit for the dealers), I felt seriously cheated.

While I sympathize with the honest, hardworking dealers need to turn a profit, perhaps the multi-tiered, multi-level sales organizations need revamping - e.g. eliminate the middleman. Look at Roland USA - all they do is make bad marketing decisions, and cause delays in bringing Roland products to the US markets. Why don't the dealers deal with the manufacturers directly? This should be easy in the arranger market, where there are only a few suppliers out there, and with the lower prices/higher margins, and everyone would benefit.

Regards,
Alex

Dave, I was just taking a little subtle shot at cgiles, but he didn't take the bait!
I've been getting by with 61 keys for many years. Sure I prefer 76, but 61 will fool most of the people most of the time.

Thanks,
DonM

Dave...you're right. The employees and this lady were working together preying on old people.

The lady subsequently went to jail for a variety of other hussles. She was originally a geriatric nurse.

The piano was a month old when I contacted the store.

The place isn't any better today...still a bad hussle.


Russ

Hi Don,

I was just having little fun and wasn't really taking a serious shot at Charles. I don't know him, have never heard him play and I don't think I have even read any of his posts.

Like I said, it is sure more fun to have a full 88 note weighted instrument to play on in certain circumstances. But I have seen times when it would have been better for the keyboardist to have been limited to fewer keys. As an example, I saw a guy playing in a four piece group and he was playing so heavy with his left hand that the bass player could have just stopped playing. That is what I meant by knowing when and what not to play.

Regarding your comments on weight, I understand. If the Genesys used a plastic case, got rid of the weights in the keys and lost the CD-R drive, etc. then it could be made lighter. But those features and others are what set it apart from the other offerings. The extra 10lbs. or so doesn't seem all that bad when you consider the advantages. But I still hear what you are saying.

Best Regards,

Dave


------------------
Wm. David McMahan
Nat'l Product and Support Manager
Generalmusic USA
GEM Community Forums

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 03-29-2006).]

Im still waiting for someone to make a flexible interchangable feature arranger / workstation KB.....that you could buy/add/remove modules for different purposes AS NEEDED.....eg: CD rec/Mp3/Voc Harmony/Sound boards/Sampling/ etc....this would make each unit "YOUR OWN" & mix and match components, removing modules to lighten up the rig for gigging, plug in modules in a studio for recording, editing etc...plus if they KEEP making different modules for MANY different purposes you wouldnt have to keep buying a new KB ...just buy the modules/plugin boards you need for your purposes.....am I Rambling......Dreaming......or Making Sense

Hi Donny,

That sounds like a good idea. But there are several issues from the manufacturer’s point of view that makes this kind of tough and also can be a disadvantage to the consumer.

First the (never become obsolete) notion is a great idea. However, as new features/functions are thought of down the road that require additional hardware, it is still up the original hardware to be able to integrate the new circuitry into the existing system. Yes that can be done to a point, but as new technology is created, most of the time requiring faster processors and vastly more memory, there comes a point when the original hardware won’t be able to support the new circuitry.

Second, it costs a lot of money to design and manufacture these optional hardware upgrades. If the manufacturer does the proper homework on deciding just what to produce, then it’s not so bad. But as is seen in this and other forums, users have many varying ideas of what the proper options are. How many times do you go to a music store and see a case full of expansion modules for various brands of keyboards that are no longer in production? This is partly due to the habit of manufacturers to introduce new products on a more than regular basis. Many time a re-package of older products, but with enough difference to make the old expansion boards obsolete. This causes a problem for the dealer who was overstocked with these expansion boards in the first place, which is yet another reason why the dealer needs to make a profit. It also causes a problem for the end user who purchased an instrument and now wants to sell it but the buyer doesn’t want the expansions that you chose so you either throw the money away and give them to the buyer for free, or you take out the unwanted expansions and they collect dust in your basement for the next 10 years. Another thing to consider is every time there is another non-permanent connection; there is another potential problem of failure.

To think that manufacturers hold back technology just to string consumers along is ridiculous. Of course I can only speak for the manufacturers I have worked for. It takes a long time to design a new product, sometimes several years. Technology does not sit idly by. The design of current electronics products is many times based on technology that is a year or so behind times. When a new technology is introduced, it is possible that the original design has no way of incorporating that new technology, at least without a major re-working of the internal hardware and operating system. All of which costs money and a lot of man hours. Designing a product is a very lengthy and costly process, and manufacturers really do try to make the most of those efforts and expenditures.

I do agree with some of what you and Alex are saying and would love to see some of your ideas implemented. But you have to consider the things that I have pointed out as being the cause for the way things are.

There are alternatives like the PC based keyboards that can accept plug-ins and are somewhat modular. But for me, I have enough problems with my desk PC that has never moved from the desk without the worry of relying on a keyboard at a gig that is running a multitude of third party software.

Just some thoughts.

Dave

Dave thanx for your interesting thoughts it is appreciated.....the underlying message in my previous post is this.....
As we can see and read on this forum day after day, year after year, the wants and needs of KB Players is not forfilled judging by players wish lists, design requests etc etc .....just for example this new Roland E80 was just introduced....the minute I looked at it I said "Hmmmmm nice looking unit".....then I keep reading the specs.......then I see the weight 49LBS & a few other things!!!
Right there for me I will never by one .....I might go try one in a store if you could ever find one .....but a purchase is out of the question.....Why? because it doesnt even come close to MY needs.....
I would love to be in a KB design meeting with one of these companies and express mine & others REAL Needs as a Prof Gigging Musician in the trenches every day so by some unbelievable longshot they might make a unit that would satisfy 50% to 75% of prof musicians & beyond, dont think so? just ask on this forum for a ARRANGER KB WISH LIST & read the answers vs what is on the market.... .......man I need a stiff drink now

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-29-2006).]

the vast majority of these Keyboards are designed for the amateur market, are purchased by the amateur market and marketed to the amateur market. Pro sales make up a tiny percentage of the overall sales. In the amateur market, the weight of the keyboard is not going to be as much of an issue as it would be to the pro market as for the most part the keyboard will sit in the living room for personal entertainment and not gigging use. You cannot seriously expect the keyboard manufacturers to gear their whole marketing proposition to the pro sales when they make so much more from the amateur market .

I own the PA1X and am not in either the pro or fully amateur camp. Its one of the heaviest arrangers on the market. Do i like the weight ? Hell no! Its like going to the gym just carrying it from the car to church. Do i like its functionality , sound, immediate playability (worths latest new word), recordability, flexibility etc etc YES !!! Despite the weight i purchased the board as the features were more useful to me. Many of the pros, even on this board will sue a fraction of the functions on the keyboard to make a good living. Samplers and sound editors and to some extent even fully blown sequencers may not be of benefit to them. But they are to users like me. If the manufatcturers were to heed many of the pros comments , then all they would need is a lightweight controller keyboard and a band in a box type module. But the manufacturers would be bankrupt in a year as this clearly is not what the market that makes themthe most money wants and i for one am grateful for that.