Knowing what you spend your money on is normal & your perogative......but, getting TAKEN by some salesman UNKNOWINGLY is a SIN!!

Donny,right on. If I thought any body took advantage of my parents I'd break their jaw. It I couldn't do it with my bare fist I'd do it with a fist of rolled up quarters. You're right friend. I hate scum. That what that type of salesman is. I'm, sure most aren't but some are.

Dave, thanks for your very interesting information. We can all learn a lot from you, and you are good to listen to our gripes and wishes. Thought I'd better chime in!
As I have grown older and the years of lifting equipment every night have taken their toll on my back, light weight is totally essential to me.
So essential that I don't even consider the Korg, Roland or GEM because I know I won't be happy dealing with them every day. Fortunately there are excellent light-weight alternatives, certainly good enough to get the job done.
If I were sitting in the same place every night, not having to move gear, my list of possible keyboards might be different. Since this is not the case, I've been led out of necessity to consider Yamaha, Ketron and even Casio (well it's not there yet, but they seem to be heading the right direction). Actually the Korg PA80 was the right weight, but had too many shortcomings for my way of using it.
I'm now using a Ketron Midjay with a controller--two pieces with a total weight of less than 20 pounds. On the plus side, it just happens to sound great and have multiple functions (MP3, Midi files, WAV, Sound effects, Hard Disk Recorder, good mic processing, lyrics display, etc.) Are there drawbacks, certainly, but not enough to offset the total package benefits. It has replaced my arranger, laptop and mixer. Now the heaviest thing I have to move is the Bose PAS, and it's heaviest component is around 30 pounds.
My point is that there are varying criteria for each of us in selecting an arranger. You graciously offered to send a GEM to me with full return privilige some months ago, and I really appreciated the offer. My primary reason for declining was the weight. O.K. the other reason was that I really needed to sell the current gear before changing, and I was afraid to do that.
I've even compromised somewhat by going back to a 61-note controller, even though Charles said on another post that only those that can't play very well can live with that. I may change again to a 76-note controller after I've given this a real chance.
I made a living for many years with only 61 keys, so I know it can work. Still . . .
Anyway, this is just another point of view. I sincerely hope to be a GEM user one of these days. Just make something I can tote around in one hand.
DonM

Don M wrote

" I sincerely hope to be a GEM user one of these days. Just make something I can tote around in one hand. "

Answer Genesys XP

Jerry

Good post Don.....I'm right with ya & pretty much agree on all you've said above.....I too love my Midjay/Roland A37 ? Bose PAS comb for gigging its so lightweight, super versatile with styles, mp3, wav, smf, sfx, voc, etc etc, the sound is amazing.....& I'll agree there are a few shortcomings vs just a stand alone arranger of which I have used for so many years till now, but definitly not enough to not do my shows and much more with my current setup.
These manufacturers have to realize the needs of gigging musicians if they want our business, the repetitive wishlist gets longer, the prices go higher & we continue to get nothing but a few crumbs in the way of new designs & upgrades release after release.....weight is a big issue, & my favorite pet peeve is NAVAGATION that makes sense on stage!!!!! .....I hope they are reading this, which I know they are but will they ever do anything substancial? I doubt it.....so instead we have to mix & match.....try out & resell....until we come up with something to our liking to perform with.....its an endless battle that I dont think will end very soon.....do you? :confused"

Good post Don.....I'm right with ya & pretty much agree on all you've said above.....I too love my Midjay/Roland A37/ Bose PAS comb for gigging its so lightweight, super versatile with styles, mp3, wav, smf, sfx, voc, etc etc, the sound is super amazing.....& I'll agree there are a few shortcomings vs just a stand alone arranger of which I have used for so many years till now, but definitly not enough to not do my shows and much more with my current setup.
These manufacturers have to realize the needs of gigging musicians if they want our business, the repetitive wishlist gets longer, the prices go higher & we continue to get nothing but a few crumbs in the way of new designs & upgrades release after release.....weight is a big issue, & my favorite pet peeve is NAVAGATION that makes sense on stage!!!!! .....I hope they are reading this, which I know they are but will they ever do anything substancial? I doubt it.....so instead we have to mix & match.....try out & resell....until we come up with something to our liking to perform with.....its an endless battle that I dont think will end very soon.....do you? :confused"

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-28-2006).]

Ripping off seniors really gets my blood boiling. Ramond Comer, who died last year, was a long time club owner and restaurant owner here in Lexington. About 11 years ago, after having been diagnosed with Alzheimer's, he called in a major panic. A local music store was threatening to take the old man to court over his purchase of a Yamaha Clavinova CPV 65. A really sleazy lady piano player had driven Ray to he store, where he paid $1500.00 down and signed a contract to pay an additional $3,400.00 over 90 days. The woman had promised to play for Ray, but took the piano and a Yamaha tone generator and left the city. He didn't even remember the details of the transaction and was scared to death.

When I contacted the store to explain the situation, They basically told me Ray was "out of luck". They finally agreed to keep the down payment and take back the piano for the balance owed. I negotiated a deal of $1000.00 off the balance due (they really stuck it to him), paid the balance, found the woman in a nearby town and took the piano. It's still the one I use in the office.


The store was the big looser. I filed a complaint with the Consumer Protection Division of the Attorney General's office, reported the store to the local senior citizen's advocate, and insisted that the store fire the salesman and the store manager, which they did.

They are also the local Gibson and Ovation dealer, and, in the last 10 years, they lost over $35,000 in business from me alone, including an order today in excess of $1500.00 for a nylon string Ovation and a double neck Ovation acoustic. Lots of people ask my advice on dealers and instruments. As often as I can I say, "stay away from ******
Music".

Sadly, seniors are often "throw away" people.

Russ

Devil's Advocate time...

As a former MI[musical instrument dealer], I have respect for the operation of Home Piano store dealers[the honest ones]..
They up hold a pricing margin that assures a successful business..

When I started out, I worked for a Hammond organ dealer....They did not give the store away, but with their higher than MI store pricing, they offered concerts, classes, even get togethers[seniors were a large part of sales].

There is a considerable overhead for storefront Music Retail stores..

I believe if the Home Piano stores stay at /or slightly discounted from factory retail prices, and offer the other benefits in the fore-mentioned,,,they are not ripping off their customers...People can still shop and make deals...It is just a case of the mentality of doing business that these dealers will pass and not give the store away..

In the MI business, the return is so poor for many small dealers that they can not sustain or maintain their business..
I can recall many times my competitors selling a keyboard[$1,800 dealer cost] for $1,850......Do the math...less than 3% mark.

My "Keep the doors open" average was 13%...
Recalling the number of small dealers the last 25 years that I knew...more than 90% are gone[including the cut throat dealers].

I use to think "How can these Home Piano stores justify selling at list prices"...the answer I now know...To stay in business and be successful...

Give a good product, service and customer activities...and the Retail price is legitimate..

When you have local dealers that are discounting to you and giving you valuable service....support them..forget On Line dealers....You will always be ahead of the game, service and future purchases will be assured, when you support your local guy[even if it cost you more dollars]..

I've been reading all your posts with great interest and I usually try to stay out of the discussion of music store policy because you all know I own a music store.
Fran hit the nail right on the head. It is really difficult for dealers like myself to make enough profit to keep my head above water.
When I started back in 1970, a 10% discount off retail was considered a good discount and most items were sold at full retail. With the market changing and more large stores opening, the discounts became larger, with 20 to 30% becoming the norm, at least here in the Los Angeles area.
Over the past few years, more and more lower price products have become the main stay of music stores with the occasional high end keyboard sale being way outnumbered by lower price instruments. Mixers, Guitars, Drums, etc. coming from China are great for the consumer, but bad for the dealers. It would be fine if you could sell so many more because of price, but this just isn't the case in most stores, at least in mine. Everyone makes good low end products and now even Best Buy, Costco, etc. are selling these. So, the dollars coming into my store have been shrinking.
I have found a niche market in the high end arranger keyboards, but unless the manufactures keep improving or coming out with new models, even this business shrinks from year to year. Thank goodness for my customers coming from forums like this.
It's a tough environment out there in 2006. I understand from friends in the industry that many of the Piano and Organ stores in areas like Florida who sell to many of the seniors you have been disussing here in this post are feeling this change in our industry, and are having a harder time maintaining that higher profit sale with more service, trade-up and lesson philosophy.
I don't know where things will go in another couple of years, but from my perspective, like Fran says, it's harder and harder to make it as a small dealer any more.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

[This message has been edited by George Kaye (edited 03-28-2006).]

whats he difference between owning a high value car and changing it every other year and owning a high value keyboard and changing it in every other year for the next moodel ? Younger people do it and there is no cry of ripping them off so why is there this outcry for older obviously quite well off people ?

They purchase the organ /keyboard for the same reasons they buy the expensive car surely ? Simply because they kike the fact that they have the latest equipment.
I go to numerous yamaha demos each year an i see the same faces drooling (not because of their age) just like me over the lastest and greatest keyboards. The only difference between them and me is that they attend with their cheque books. If i had their money i would probably do exactly the same. Just because they are older does not mean that they are being ripped off.