We may be on holograms by then Donny Imagine, a virtual tutorial arriving on disc, ready to pop into your holo player and away you go! You could look over his/her/it's shoulder and not have to rely on the sometimes dubious angle's chosen by the video director!

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It's musical snobbery because I said I didn't think arrangers were intended as a "pro" instrument? It's my opinion, nothing more, or am I not entitled to have one? Would a musical snob own TWO (Tyros2 and PA1x pro)? I just don't (or wouldn't) use them to gig with. Not flexible enough for the type of music I do. That's the reason, pure and simple. If that makes me a snob, what can I say. I don't sing and I enjoy playing with other musicians; I don't do OMB gigs (don't have the requisite skills for that) and my preferred instrument is the organ (followed by piano). I would feel uncomfortable (in public) sounding like a complete band when the audience can plainly see that I could not possibly be playing all these parts. This does not make me a snob. It makes me someone who plays in an environment that I feel comfortable with. I think I'm allowed to do that without having to feel guilty about it. Different strokes for different folks. I belong to this forum because I am totally intrigued by arrangers. What I do with them and how I perceive them is my business alone and I don't think I should be called on the carpet because my opinion doesn't happen to be the same as yours.

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Depends on how you define musician. In my mind it absolutely makes you more of a musician; not necessarily more talented, but definitely more of a musician.

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It's not. If you suck on one instrument, you'll likely suck on another.

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And does he still play arrangers? On sessions?

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Where and at what point did I indicate that I feared arrangers. If that were the case why would I have the wretched things in my house?

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Could you point out examples of that my posts. The larger question is; why are you so defensive? And why me? Others have expressed the same sentiment.

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Best wishes
Tony x [/B][/QUOTE]

Tony, since this was directed at me, I have to assume that the "Best wishes" is said with a bit of sarcasm. That's okay. I sometimes do the same. Rarely with strangers, but sometimes. In the meantime, lets not forget that it's all just opinion and we're all entitled to them.

Peace,

chas

Whoah.....Chas!

Slow it down a bit! I apologise if you took my post as being directly aimed at you, and no-one else.

Neither did I mean to infer that I had some kind of beef with you personally.

I was merely replying with my observations about an attitude that is prevelant and to which your post had alluded.

I used parts of your post (quoted) that seemed to me to highlight what I was talking about.....not particularly because you personally said them. I merely wanted to expand on what you said and opine my own view on the matter.

I certainly won't be drawn into any on board fighting on the matter, If you took my words as antagonistic and a personal affront then I apologise unreservedly. You are no less entitled to your opinion than I am to mine and I would be the last person to try to shout you down.

Maybe with hindsight I should have made the post more general and not preceded it with 'chas' ..... given that your comments had initiated my thought process I considered it warranted, I thought that is how conversation worked?

I stand by my original comments regarding this (as an attitude prevalent among musicians) which was my intention.

I did not think I was being defensive or even God forbid offensive...merely taking my turn in offering my opinion. I am more than a little surprised to see your response thus. I know very little about you, why would you leap to the conclusion I was berating you personally?

It seems to me that there is a tendancy here of late to look for the hidden agenda in any post. Let me make it clear so there is no confusion. I belong to no particular 'faction' on the zone, I won't judge anyone by anything other than their own words or actions and I certainly won't be drawn into silly playground fights. I have no agenda.

Hell fire, now even I am wishing I stayed in lurkers corner. This place is a minefield!

My best wishes were meant sincerely btw and still stand :P
Tony

Sorry Tony, no minefield here. I believe it was YOU that started your post with "Chas, this (your post) smacks of musical snobbery". If any mines were laid, I believe that was the defining moment. On this board, if you choose to name names, followed by re-interpreted quotes, you can expect to get a response. If you are a long-time lurker, you should know that. Very nice bit of spinning, though (in your last post), to cast me in the role of the bad guy and you (and all arranger players) as the injured party. Not difficult at all, as I already have a dedicated cast of boo-birds. I really liked the part about being dragged into a fight and threatening to go back to lurkersville.

Here's a tip. Got an opinion, express it. You don't need to re-write my script to conjur up support for your point of view. You're a very articulate guy and have obviously learned a lot about the art of spin (been listening to the Republican debates? ), and your protestations of innocence will play well with many on this board; however, there are also a few very bright guys that also reside on the premises who will perceive this whole situation accurately.

chas

Oh dear
So be it. My apology still stands if you were offended.

As for your 'tip' to express my opinion I was under the impression that my doing exactly that is what annoyed you in the first place?

It seems a touch paranoid to me that you read so much into my posts. Your determination to make it into some kind of issue 'there are bright guys who reside here who will read this for what it really means' (forgive the paraphrasing) makes your own motives rather suspect in my opinion.

Mind you as my old Gran used to say " Just because you are paranoid does not mean the buggers ain't out to get you"

regards

Tony

Here we go again...

Within 10 years the arranger will probably still have the same buttons/sliders/keys or whatever, but the contents will be quite different. Probably only O/S + mainboard, processers, ram and audio card.
All the rest will be software instead of hardware, which basicly means that your arranger keyboard changed from arranger to controller keyboard.

The reason is obvious. It's much cheaper so commercially very interesting.

Fred

Mind you, most old Grans are crazy as a hoot. I'd take what she says with a grain of salt.

Tony, as much fun as this has been, it's time to put it to bed. See you and your arranger in Carneigie Hall (sp).

chas

Freddy,
I certainly think it would be wonderful if your vision of the future were to materialise. I used to think it would never happen,that the big guys had too much invested producing hardware arrangers to see them diversifying much into software options. Then TC Helicon offered their voice modelling technology as a software option and I realised that there was more incentive for manufacturers to offer this. Less overheads and a retail price that was not much different to the hardware option.

I suppose it will take one of the big three to make the first move and offer a software option of their current TOTL arranger and then the gloves will be off. Imagine you could buy the keybed of your choice as a controller and wham in the latest and greatest of the software arrangers at will.

You could get to choose your keys, screen, mic inputs, on board FX ....heck the possibilities are endless.

If that is how the future is I can't wait
Best wishes
Tony

[This message has been edited by Tony W (edited 10-14-2007).]

I agree we should leave this be. Hopefully when you get to know me you will realise that there was truly no malice intended in my post. As for seeing me in Carneigie Hall, I fear I am ill equipped for the gig. Emptying the hall.....now maybe

Tony

So much of the reason for arrangers getting the thumbs down from session pros is the deliberate dumbing down of the feature set, IMO.

Roland use a Fantom engine, Korg use a Triton, Yamaha... not sure if the engine is Motif based, but many of the samples sure are. But where they diverge is the depth of control. Zone ranges... Most workstations make no rules to follow. Any Part can play any range of keys, or velocity range, or a combination of both. Arrangers.. Fixed assignments to Upper, Lower, MBS, sometimes a third split. But nowhere NEAR the flexibility of their WS cousins.

You can't blame the engine. It's well capable of any of this. It's the software, the assumption that, if we get enough choice, it will confuse us. As if getting into the depths of TVNs and Style editing isn't complex enough already...! These arbitrary choices you are forced to make on arrangers, effects routing, zone ranges, tone editing, even patch storage and recall, etc., etc., are most likely the reason many pros eschew arrangers.

Shame, really, as very little needs to be added in the way of OS improvements to compete with workstations. But, of course, therein lies the problem. If arranger capabilities WERE grafted onto full WS OSs, that would be the end of the WS as we know it. And profits stay high when we are forced to buy TWO different products to do two jobs, rather than making one capable of both. Money, pure and simple.

Mind you, the last couple of sessions I've been on, I've taken my G70 in to do piano parts, rather than use the Kurzweil K2500X in the studio. That piano is so warm and intimate, on the right material, it is giving even the Steinway a run on a few tracks (we have a 1928 baby Steinway). And on live call gigs (no idea what we will play) I'll take the G70 over my K2500 simply because it is easier to call up sounds and effects for splits and layers in a hurry. If I have a lot of time to prepare for a show, then probably the K2500 gets the edge. But for fast and simple meat and potatoes, the G70 can't be beat.

But I sure wish it had MORE flexibility, and editing depth, and I might be able to let the K2500 go... Nah! I still need a great sampler and some whacked out sounds from time to time (two of it's strengths)...