Actually, I am STILL trying to point out that these 'under the hood' things that I've described are NOT 'pro' features. And, in fact, while the MS beavers furiously away to make the SOUND better in arrangers (a worthy enough goal), it's ARRANGER technology is no more sophisticated than a Casio (live loops aside).

It is actually the big bad three, for all your purported claim of dumb and dumber, that ARE introducing these new technologies... Guitar Mode on Korg (and to a lesser extent, Roland), Adaptive Chord Voicing on Roland's, SA voice technology from Yamaha. All of these use sophisticated technology that didn't exist three or four years ago, but to the user, it is transparent. Unless you want to edit it extensively (on the whole, unnecessary, IMO), it adds no more complication to selecting a style and playing as there ever was.

THAT is the ideal arranger technology... All you EVER do is play chords, and comp and solo with the RH (or both in Piano Mode). All these enhancements happen out of sight and mind, but simply add up to a more enjoyable, responsive musical experience. And THAT can be appreciated by any level of player, from the one finger wannabe's to the full-on pro.

Don't sell the majors short, or ourselves! If we really COULDN'T tell the difference, or cared that little, we WOULD still be playing Thomas's and Elka's...

In 10 years I'll be using my old Roland Jupiter 6 and 8 and Roland JX3P as well as the latest keyboard/synth on the market. You gotta keep up with the times, but also keep up with the past. Long live analog, but the future is clearly digital, it's been digital for 20 years already.... now its time for new input devices, not just a keyboard but some other types of interfaces to control the sound.

Its not always the big 3 that produce the innovations in arrangers, (The Wersi OAA (Open Art Arranger) is probably the most advanced arranger section out there, as well as being dead easy to use) but they are the only ones that have the finance and muscle to be able to set up mass production, so to provide thousands of dealers with products at relatively cheap prices. (Selling thousands of boards at cheaper prices soon pays off the R & D costs)
If Wersi had the same resources as the big 3 you would probably find their prices would easily undercut the big 3. (As well as being more advanced instruments)
Until then it’s a matter of staying with the higher end market. (Home users tend to have more disposable income the most musicians, which is why TOTL boards easily sell)
Enjoy Life, Play a Wersi.

Bill

Anyway back to the original thread which asks what we will be playing in 10 years, rather then what’s available today?
Mine will probably still be the Abacus with whatever OAS version is available at that time.
One thing is certain, the future looks bright

Bill

An Abacus is basically computer based, isn't it?

So think about a ten year old computer... How many of us are attempting to run contemporary VSTi's on a ten year old computer. Even with upgrades, no ten year old computer that I am aware of is capable of running the latest things out there. Yet alone several at a time.

And no matter HOW powerful any current system is, I guarantee that in ten years time, they will be writing software instrument programs that can't be run on it. How about Vista? That working OK on Abacus's yet...? because, in ten years time, even that will be outdated, and yet probably doesn't run even on contemporary Wersi's. (And will be needed to run any forthcoming VSTi's developed in the Vista environment)

The Synclavier and Fairlight showed many people that if you hitch your wagon to a VERY expensive computer-based engine, within a decade or so, you have a VERY expensive doorstop (or at least, an instrument that is no more capable than when bought)...! If you wish to chase the elusive butterfly of technology, staying with a computer is going to be the least expensive AND most forward looking way of doing it. I'd rather replace a $2k computer every three or four years, that be saddled with a $20k arranger that can't be upgraded to modern standards (whatever THAT will be in ten years time!).

And, once again, we are talking about SONIC improvements, NOT arranger ones. Pardon my ignorance (not exactly a plethora of information about Wersi's in English on the web), but what ARRANGER improvements are there in Wersi's? Are there more variations and fills than a T2 or G70? Is there a Guitar mode, like Korg? Any kind of intelligent revoicing technology? Does the Wersi interpret how you play chords and solos to vary the backing any better than any other arranger? Does it, in fact, have ANY arranger feature not already on the big three? Variable swing? Half time and double time buttons?

THOSE are what I'm talking about, not running the same old, same old through better and better quality sounds... Hopefully, ten years from now, we will have got over our fixation with sounds, and start to realize that the TRUE source of enjoyment is not in the 'ultimate' piano sound or drum kit, but with artificial players that respond in natural, musical ways to your input, not in the short snippety, wild jumpy, 'the only thing you can do is tell us the chords' fashion we now have.

When you play with REAL musicians, the ones you always remember the best and look forward to playing with the most are the ones that LISTEN... To you, and to the others around them. Until arrangers start to LISTEN to us better, and vary their accompaniment in response, sonic improvements only accentuate the difference between the quality of the sound, and the lack of 'quality' in the actual PLAYING.

JMO, yada yada yada....

Hi Diki
Computers are just a motherboard, CPU, Ram and Hard Disk and so can easily be upgraded to the latest spec, in fact OAS 7 will not run on the earlier OAS instruments as they are just not powerful enough, (They also ran on WIN 98) and this is why it cost a little bit more to upgrade for older uses, as the computer parts and OS have to be upgraded.

As to Vista, Wersi are no doubt experimenting, but I have to say the current version of Vista is a bit of a disaster. (Certainly not worth upgrading from XP yet)

Wersi owners have been pushing Wersi to get all there information in English for a while now, and they did promise at the Pakefield Festival that they would be addressing this problem, so hopefully it will be easier to find out details in the future.

OAA
As far as fills/breaks etc are concerned, if I have interpreted the German manual correctly (Fortunately it has screenshots in it) the styles can be broken up into 18 different parts in various combinations.

Chord recognition system algorithms are also way in advance of other manufactures instruments, plus many other features unique to Wersi are incorporated. (With still more under development) Unfortunately most people always seem to mention the direct play of Yamaha styles, (Which actually sound more live then the originals due to a better sound system) when in actual fact it is only a Small part of the OAA.

BTW Did you know that Wersi were one of the first manufactures to incorporate a Humaniser function on their Rhythm and Accompaniment units fitted to their organs in 1984.
Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

As an addition here is the manual for the OAA, unfortunately still in German but with plenty of Screenshots which should give you some idea. (The manual is for Revision R17, however the latest OAA (OAS7) version is R22 and so there are additional new features that are not included in the manual)
http://download.yousendit.com/7CA6CA4C1F7AE461



[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 10-14-2007).]

My very first synth was a JX3P...

Ah, the memories!

It's not that way now, and chances are - it's be more lopsided in favor or arrangers tehn. Just watch !

Chas, I'm sorry but this smacks of musical snobbery to me. As long as arrangers have been around there has been this fear that they somehow negate the skill of percieved 'real' musicians.

It amazes me how many musicians have this real fear that should the label on their board read Tyros instead of Motif or PA instead of Triton it takes away something from their own musical ability, or worse still is seen as a 'cop out' by their peers.

It is not the silly graphics above the keys or the lack of depth and 'tweakiness' that prevents arrangers being seen in more of your top 20 clubs, it is musicians who would rather miss out on the technology and options that modern TOTL arrangers offer than have anyone in any doubt about their abilities to do it for 'real'

I must have spent a massive part of my teens practicing my scales at the behest of a dragon in the guise of a sweet old piano teacher. Of course now I am glad I was subjected to such torture....but I certainly don't think that this makes me any more of a musician than someone who learns chords and has only ever played an arranger. In fact there are many people I know who had no formal musical training who could whoop my proverbial on anything with keys.

I have never understood why someones musicianship is somehow related to their choice of instrument, and why these petty distinctions are made only by fellow musicians. Surely it is the creation of music that matters, not what we create it on?

My first 'arranger' was a very basic casio. It was basic because that is all you could get then, I saved my paper round money for months to get it. It made music come alive for me after years of doing it 'for real' in the dragons den! When I was done with this 'toy' I passed it on to my mates little brother who had never shown the slightest interest in music, or instruments of any description. He just thought it was cool. These days he is a session musician and probably one of the best pianists I have ever heard.

David Bowie was performing on TV a couple of years ago and in an instrumental part of his song he picked up a Stylophone (remember them?) and used it.

My point is that it should be less about the tools and more about the music. Anything that inspires people to create music should be welcomed and not feared by those who think that a few bells and whistles challenge their own abilities.

Ten years time?.....we will still be having the same discussion because human beings have a desperate need to promote their own skills and abilities by trampling on those of their fellows.

Apologies for the verbose post. Bet you wish I had stayed in lurkers corner now
Best wishes
Tony x

Good quality Instructional Tutorial DVDs on all KB features, education is key